Strange IRCAS prosecution message on website

[travel thru]

Hi! I was without a valid ticket in late October travelling into Liverpool Street. The revenue people at the station decided I would be treated as a prosecution case. I contacted ircas and treated Anglia proactively to apologise and offer to settle. Ircas said this was good and would show a favourable light. But still I heard nothing for 6 weeks.

Now it’s been 7 weeks and I check ircas website every day using my case number and postcode. After all these weeks, yesterday finally a new message appeared, instead of “there is no outstanding payment on this account” this is what it says:

“I'm afraid we cannot accept payment for this notice due to the current status of the case, please contact our advisor on 0870 067 9845 or alternatively email us at [email protected].The Payment Line is open Monday to Friday 0900 - 1600 excluding bank holidays.
Calls to our 0844 numbers cost 5p per minute (ppm), 0845 numbers cost 7ppm, 0871 numbers cost 10ppm and 0870 numbers cost 13ppm; all plus your network access charge(s).”

I called ircas and they were surprised to see the update and said they haven’t yet been instructed on what to do. They said the paperwork has been received by greater Anglia but they haven’t instructed ircas. I followed up with an email and they said the same. They are good at responding!

Does this message mean greater Anglia won’t offer an out of court settlement? Will it go straight to court? I am super nervous about it. Useful to know if anyone has insight.

 

[AlterEgo]

Have you received any correspondence at all from them? Normally they will write or sometimes email first. Were you given a penalty fare at the time, or were you instead interviewed and then a report filled out?

 

[travel thru]

No penalty fare. Straight to prosecution. The guy did not like me. He asked me if I had the means to pay but didn’t charge me. I have received no correspondence yet. I am in essex and post is erratic so ircas promised to email and write - but greater Anglia I don’t know. Would greater Anglia by pass Ircas and contact me directly?

 

[AlterEgo]

It depends. Occasionally, train companies handle serious cases themselves. What was the nature of your ticket irregularity?

 

[travel thru]

I stupidly intended to travel until one particular station, meet someone for breakfast and she was going to give me a ride to Stratford where I would take the Elizabeth line or a train to London (I never know which is best). So I had two partial tickets.

My plans fell through so I stayed on the train. I had a code to collect the Stratford to Liv street ticket.

If I did this regularly I would have known that I would not be able to go through, right?

I told the guy it was a change in plans on that day. He wasn’t impressed.

He asked to see my Trainline app and didn’t find any other similar instances, my tickets were all split tickets to London or Bristol, as this is where my offices are, 1 or 2 times a week max.

So I assumed I’d get a fine but as I said he said this was fare evasion and cautioned me. Kept me for 39 min asking me the same questions again and again.

When I rang, which cost me a fortune, the Ircas staff were quite sympathetic - I have never been in any trouble, I commuted with the annual card for 10 years until Covid and hybrid working. But now things don’t seem to be progressing and I am worried. Partially I am curious to see what they will do as to me this is such a hassle over something they could easily resolve. So I am interested in knowing if anyone has seen similar cases.

 

[fandroid]

There's a fair chance that you will be offered an out of court settlement. You'll have to wait for the letter/email. That may be just an initial one just asking you to give your side of the story, but it will start the ball rolling.

We can give advice on how to maximise the likelihood of an out of court settlement, but it's best if we see the letter first (with any identifying details blanked out)

 

[John R]

The reason why you were kept so long might be that the story of a sudden change of plans explaining two short fares is rather common and somewhat unbelievable, so they probably assumed you weren’t telling the truth. Why would you bother to buy a ticket from Stratford to Liv St online in advance when you could simply tap in at Stratford? It’s a classic “doughnutting” strategy to buy a ticket online which most people will use contactless or Oyster for.

The only thing in your favour is that they didn’t see similar transactions in your trainline account. Although they may be looking for evidence of other transactions on other online ticket platforms - there was a well publicised case recently where the accused had used multiple names and multiple accounts to try and cover their fraud, but the train company traced the links to the one person.

All you can do is wait for them to get in touch with you and see what the next steps are, at which point we’ll be able to advise you.

 

[travel thru]

The reason why you were kept so long might be that the story of a sudden change of plans explaining two short fares is rather common and somewhat unbelievable, so they probably assumed you weren’t telling the truth. Why would you bother to buy a ticket from Stratford to Liv St online in advance when you could simply tap in at Stratford? It’s a classic “doughnutting” strategy to buy a ticket online which most people will use contactless or Oyster for.

The only thing in your favour is that they didn’t see similar transactions in your trainline account. Although they may be looking for evidence of other transactions on other online ticket platforms - there was a well publicised case recently where the accused had used multiple names and multiple accounts to try and cover their fraud, but the train company traced the links to the one person.

All you can do is wait for them to get in touch with you and see what the next steps are, at which point we’ll be able to advise you.

Thanks. I didn’t know if I could use my contactless on Stratford to Liverpool Street trains or only Elizabeth line, hence the ticket. I am not that familiar with the route - only lived in essex for 2 years, my usual station was Kings X for 10 years. I do use TrainPal as well but there’s nothing there either, only the usual split tickets which confuse me when I get them on my apple wallet. Let’s see what they say.

Thanks. I didn’t know if I could use my contactless on Stratford to Liverpool Street trains or only Elizabeth line, hence the ticket. I am not that familiar with the route - only lived in essex for 2 years, my usual station was Kings X for 10 years. I do use TrainPal as well but there’s nothing there either, only the usual split tickets which confuse me when I get them on my apple wallet. Let’s see what they say.

Never had heard of this doughnutting. I can see people doing that, it seems like something that would work. They genuinely can look at my history - never did anything like that. This genuinely was a stupid mistake and change in plans, it didn’t occur to me “let me buy a ticket from x to Stratford” as there were only 3 stops. Oh rubbish. Just before Christmas too.

 

[AlterEgo]

I stupidly intended to travel until one particular station, meet someone for breakfast and she was going to give me a ride to Stratford where I would take the Elizabeth line or a train to London (I never know which is best). So I had two partial tickets.

My plans fell through so I stayed on the train. I had a code to collect the Stratford to Liv street ticket.

If I did this regularly I would have known that I would not be able to go through, right?

I told the guy it was a change in plans on that day. He wasn’t impressed.

I can see why he wasn't impressed, there are plenty of red flags there and you've certainly intentionally fare dodged. That is why you were written up for prosecution.

Greater Anglia or their agents are likely conducting an audit of your ticket purchasing history across online platforms to see if there are any other irregularities which they are able to prosecute for, or settle out of court for.

It's best to wait for correspondence to arrive; they will usually write to you and ask for your side of the story and you would be well advised to think carefully about what you tell them in response.

 

[travel thru]

Ok thanks.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with @AlterEgo Train companies are increasingly researching online ticket purchasing history before sending letters asking for a passengers version of events. The research takes a few weeks which is why it takes longer for the letter to arrive.

There isn't really anything you can do to speed things up. Train companies deal with hundreds of these cases at a time so you just have to wait your turn in the queue.

Post up a copy of the letter int his thread when it comes and will will be happy to advise on how to reply, but do remove any personal details before uploading.

 

[travel thru]

I agree with @AlterEgo Train companies are increasingly researching online ticket purchasing history before sending letters asking for a passengers version of events. The research takes a few weeks which is why it takes longer for the letter to arrive.

There isn't really anything you can do to speed things up. Train companies deal with hundreds of these cases at a time so you just have to wait your turn in the queue.

Post up a copy of the letter int his thread when it comes and will will be happy to advise on how to reply, but do remove any personal details before uploading.

Thanks. I am relatively relaxed as they won’t find anything weird - I usually buy split tickets, once a week, maybe twice depending on the week, sometimes none for a week or two as I don’t have to go in weekly. I am somewhat surprised the online ticket retailers just share our information without a court order or something. How is that legal? Or does greater Anglia own these online platforms?

But generally I don’t think there’s anything irregular on my Trainline or trainpal or another one I discovered in the summer, which is actually the cheapest. Sometimes I buy a week’s ticket on greater Anglia app directly.

Who knows? I will wait and see. Thank you.

 

[Hadders]

I am somewhat surprised the online ticket retailers just share our information without a court order or something. How is that legal? Or does greater Anglia own these online platforms?

It is all perfectly legal as it is 'for the prevention and detection of crime'.

 

[travel thru]

It is all perfectly legal as it is 'for the prevention and detection of crime'.

Fascinating! I learned something new.

 

[WesternLancer]

Fascinating! I learned something new.

Look at it from their point of view - if it was that easy to mask your digital fingerprints by buying all sorts of tickets from different retailers which stopped the railway from 'joining the dots' and finding deliberate fare evaders they would not permit the sale of their tickets from all sorts of different retailers to make it that easy....

 

[travel thru]

Look at it from their point of view - if it was that easy to mask your digital fingerprints by buying all sorts of tickets from different retailers which stopped the railway from 'joining the dots' and finding deliberate fare evaders they would not permit the sale of their tickets from all sorts of different retailers to make it that easy....

Who knows? I hope they investigate thoroughly and let me have an offer of settlement or whatever. I have spent £6k a year for 10 years as a commuter - now I spent £3.5k a year since 2021 as ticket prices are more expensive although I go to office only 5-6 times a month, because the return fare is far pricier. I made a mistake on a day which is frustrating.

Who knows? I hope they investigate thoroughly and let me have an offer of settlement or whatever. I have spent £6k a year for 10 years as a commuter - now I spent £3.5k a year since 2021 as ticket prices are more expensive although I go to office only 5-6 times a month, because the return fare is far pricier. I made a mistake on a day which is frustrating.

Who knows? I hope they investigate thoroughly and let me have an offer of settlement or whatever. I have spent £6k a year for 10 years as a commuter - now I spent £3.5k a year since 2021 as ticket prices are more expensive although I go to office only 5-6 times a month, because the return fare is far pricier. I made a mistake on a day which is frustrating.

Hi I finallly got a letter. It’s so vague, I am not sure what they are asking me.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi I finallly got a letter. It’s so vague, I am not sure what they are asking me.

Often seem to be a bit like this - basically you need to write back explaining to them what happened that meant you did not have the correct ticket on the date concerned - something brief but presumably the gist of your post #5 above is what you should explain. Make it clear / seek to persuade them that you had no deliberate intention to avoid paying the fare, and ask if they would consider allowing you to pay any sum owed without the need for court action.

You could even mention, in support of your point that you pay your fares, the annual sum you mention as ticket purchases, in support of your point that this was a one off mistake with a ticket that you wish to put right.

See other threads for examples of the advice given here but it is often along the lines of (with credit to @Hadders ):

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- That you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

also other threads have examples of the sorts of letters people draft which will give you an idea.

Whatever you do it is v important to reply with something as otherwise they will just escalate it to the 'send case to court' pile I suspect. Obv not what you want to be doing before xmas but don't put this to one side.

 

[travel thru]

Often seem to be a bit like this - basically you need to write back explaining to them what happened that meant you did not have the correct ticket on the date concerned - something brief but presumably the gist of your post #5 above is what you should explain. Make it clear / seek to persuade them that you had no deliberate intention to avoid paying the fare, and ask if they would consider allowing you to pay any sum owed without the need for court action.

See other threads for examples of the advice given here but it is often along the lines of (with credit to @Hadders ):

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Whatever you do it is v important to reply with something as otherwise they will just escalate it to the 'send case to court' pile I suspect. Obv not what you want to be doing before xmas but don't put this to one side.

Understood! I will do so now. I genuinely made a mistake on the day - unbelievable as though it may be to normal humans - no intent of not paying a full fare deliberately . But I know it was my mistake and I should pay - and I am perfectly happy to make full reparations. Thank you all.

 

[WesternLancer]

Understood! I will do so now. I genuinely made a mistake on the day - unbelievable as though it may be to normal humans - no intent of not paying a full fare deliberately . But I know it was my mistake and I should pay - and I am perfectly happy to make full reparations. Thank you all.

Good luck with getting this resolved.

also - at least this makes it clear you are dealing with Greater Anglia at this stage, not IRCAS, by the looks of it.

 

[travel thru]

Good luck with getting this resolved.

also - at least this makes it clear you are dealing with Greater Anglia at this stage, not IRCAS, by the looks of it.

Thank you! Yes it looks like it. Not sure if that’s better? Or just different? I replied to them and will let you all know of the outcome in case that’s helpful to someone else. I simply hate being in the wrong and I am eager to make reparations, take my lessons learned and help anyone else if possible

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you! Yes it looks like it. Not sure if that’s better? Or just different? I replied to them and will let you all know of the outcome in case that’s helpful to someone else. I simply hate being in the wrong and I am eager to make reparations, take my lessons learned and help anyone else if possible

I can't be 100% sure but most Anglia cases I recall on here seem to involve Anglia doing the processing of the case / writing out etc - so it maybe for them that IRCAS just handle the payment process side of things for settlements that Anglia have agreed. I'm not 100% sure.

On a +ve note what we tend to see is that when it is handled in house the rail companies concerned seem to agree to settlements in a more straightforward way - when it is contracted out this is less so (Chiltern Trains seem to contract most of this sort of work to a company called TIL - TIL definitely play hard ball when it comes ot agreeing settlements as many threads on here show) - so as a hunch I'd say probably better dealing with Anglia direct perhaps.

 

[travel thru]

I can't be 100% sure but most Anglia cases I recall on here seem to involve Anglia doing the processing of the case / writing out etc - so it maybe for them that IRCAS just handle the payment process side of things for settlements that Anglia have agreed. I'm not 100% sure.

On a +ve note what we tend to see is that when it is handled in house the rail companies concerned seem to agree to settlements in a more straightforward way - when it is contracted out this is less so (Chiltern Trains seem to contract most of this sort of work to a company called TIL - TIL definitely play hard ball when it comes ot agreeing settlements as many threads on here show) - so as a hunch I'd say probably better dealing with Anglia direct perhaps.

Oh that’s good! I hope they reply soon

 

[travel thru]

Hi! So I heard from greater Anglia in reply to my email. They said they investigated my travel history and decided to offer me a settlement of £124 - that’s £24 of the unpaid portion of the ticket and penalty plus £100 admin charge. This seemed fair to me so I paid with grateful thanks. I am so glad it’s over. Thank you all for your input

 

[185143]

Hi! So I heard from greater Anglia in reply to my email. They said they investigated my travel history and decided to offer me a settlement of £124 - that’s £24 of the unpaid portion of the ticket and penalty plus £100 admin charge. This seemed fair to me so I paid with grateful thanks. I am so glad it’s over. Thank you all for your input

That sounds like a fair result.

 

[travel thru]

That sounds like a fair result.

Super fair. I am so pleased!

 

[Hadders]

This is a decent result in the circumstances.

Thanks for letting us know.

 

[kacper]

Hope this is allowed here, but at £124 wasn’t OP charged around the same amount as a penalty fare from where they evaded?

 

[travel thru]

Hope this is allowed here, but at £124 wasn’t OP charged around the same amount as a penalty fare from where they evaded?

I have no idea at all what this means

 

[John R]

I have no idea at all what this means

I wouldn’t worry about it. You got a very good result given the circumstances, and that’s all you need to know!

 

[Hadders]

Hope this is allowed here, but at £124 wasn’t OP charged around the same amount as a penalty fare from where they evaded?

No. They were charged the outstanding fare of £24 plus an admin fee of £100.

A Penalty Fare cannot be issued retrospectively and these are £100 plus the appropriate fare but reduced to £50 iplus appropriate fare if paid within 21 days.