GWR 'Project Churchward'

[Snow1964]

I suspect you are right in the likely chosen manufacturer. It'll be Stadler, I'd bet my mortgage on it. I'm no fan, I've stated that before, just hope we don't end up with something that looks and feels like a 777. Cardiff to Portsmouth or Penzance is more intercity than the metro feel the route seems to be portrayed as these days. Lots and lots of people doing journeys of around 2 hours, especially on PZ to Cardiff, so in my view, some Stadler Metro contraption just won't cut it, but I fear and suspect that's what we will be lumbered with.

Stadler do make other trains :

Smile, a 250km/h high speed EMU
Flirt 200, a 125mph express configuration
Kiss 200, double deck version, but too big for UK
Flirt 160, the 100mph regional version,
Kiss 160, double deck version
Wink, basically the Flirt with short power pack car
GTW an articulated version
City Metro Underground range (777 is based on this)
Trams (various types)

If the DfT are going to pitch the tender at upto 480 vehicles (and there are other tenders eg Northern for similar number, and South Eastern for 350-700) then volumes are big enough for most major train builders to offer derivative of one of their ranges.

Can't at this stage rule out others eg Hyundai/Rotem or China CRRC being interested, although politically would be much easier to make small order like Chiltern abroad. Although in reality many recent trains have been part built in Japan, Austria etc

Even Alstom, could move away from troublesome Aventra platform, and think laterally eg mixing its Australian Adessia range with the Irish BEMU or some other variant that no one has discussed yet.

 

[stuu]

I suspect you are right in the likely chosen manufacturer. It'll be Stadler, I'd bet my mortgage on it. I'm no fan, I've stated that before, just hope we don't end up with something that looks and feels like a 777. Cardiff to Portsmouth or Penzance is more intercity than the metro feel the route seems to be portrayed as these days. Lots and lots of people doing journeys of around 2 hours, especially on PZ to Cardiff, so in my view, some Stadler Metro contraption just won't cut it, but I fear and suspect that's what we will be lumbered with.

Next time you are in London, go to Liverpool Street and try one of the 745s, they are far better than 800s from a passenger perspective, IMO

 

[irish_rail]

Next time you are in London, go to Liverpool Street and try one of the 745s, they are far better than 800s from a passenger perspective, IMO

I did try one once and hated it. The ride was terrible and I detest the massive areas by the doors for standees. I know it's the direction we are moving in, but my personal preference would be something more like a 158 internally than something uber metro. Especially when many journeys on the Cardiff to PZ and Pompey route are longer than intercity journeys on LNER, Avanti and EMR.

 

[stuu]

I did try one once and hated it. The ride was terrible and I detest the massive areas by the doors for standees. I know it's the direction we are moving in, but my personal preference would be something more like a 158 internally than something uber metro. Especially when many journeys on the Cardiff to PZ and Pompey route are longer than intercity journeys on LNER, Avanti and EMR.

745s aren't remotely metro. Are you sure you went on one and not a 720?

 

[Bletchleyite]

745s aren't remotely metro. Are you sure you went on one and not a 720?

They're basically a low floor, long 350/1 designed for the fast outersuburban service with significant commuter loads that the Greater Anglia "Intercity" service really is (it's basically comparable to Chiltern or the LNR Birmingham semifasts). Also comparable to the Southeastern Javelin units.

 

[irish_rail]

745s aren't remotely metro. Are you sure you went on one and not a 720?

Anything with great big doors in the middle of the carriage will feel metro. It's just my personal opinion, though I accept that's a debate for another thread (of which there are several).

 

[Nucker]

Many of the services that these new trains will be running will be very metro-like. The Exmouth to Paignton service comes to mind. Others, like the Cardiff to Penzance will be very much regional/intercity. If GWR are not going to particularly variate the trains for the different types of services, and try and have one train fits all, then they're going to have to strike a balance, and likely that balance will mean standing room and mid doors for the high capacity loads of the more metro like services, as then you just have a spacious train for intercity, which is better than overcrowding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many of the services that these new trains will be running will be very metro-like. The Exmouth to Paignton service comes to mind. Others, like the Cardiff to Penzance will be very much regional/intercity. If GWR are not going to particularly variate the trains for the different types of services, and try and have one train fits all, then they're going to have to strike a balance, and likely that balance will mean standing room and mid doors for the high capacity loads of the more metro like services, as then you just have a spacious train for intercity, which is better than overcrowding.

Give or take low floor the 195/331 is that sort of compromise. It's suitable for all Northern operations, be that an overcrowded East Manchester 2 car local or a 6 car Airport-Windermere in August.

 

[Class172]

The two lines where 23m vehicles are currently a problem are the Gunny and the Looe. The problem there with 15x is cardan shaft and coupler throw. The first disappears with a BEMU and the technology for the second has moved on a bit since the 1980’s.

A new five car unit design is where GWR’s head is at for both the Cardiff-Penzance and Cardiff-Portsmouth corridors, if they can persuade the DfT.

Interesting thanks—I'd known for a while those two lines were unusual cases but I'd never known the specific reason behind the restrictions beyond just "a 158 won't fit".

Is there any equivalent thinking from GWR yet for the Devon metro/Cornwall services in terms of what sort of design they're aspiring towards?

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Anything with great big doors in the middle of the carriage will feel metro. It's just my personal opinion, though I accept that's a debate for another thread (of which there are several).

I’ve never been on a Class 745 but looking at internal pictures on Google it doesn’t look in the least bit metro. Spot on for long distance services from Cardiff to be honest. The Welsh ones (231s?) are a lot more ‘metro like’.

 

[Starmill]

They're basically a low floor, long 350/1 designed for the fast outersuburban service with significant commuter loads that the Greater Anglia "Intercity" service really is (it's basically comparable to Chiltern or the LNR Birmingham semifasts). Also comparable to the Southeastern Javelin units.

The Javelin in its refurbished guise feels a lot more like a true "premium" product, arguably even nicer than LNER, as the ride quality is much smoother and the saloon quieter than the 80x or FLIRT at 80 - 90 miles/hour. Hugely better on station work times with a full load than 80x too, because there's no ludicrous step and less far to walk to any seat. Not as good as the 170/350/195 etc can achieve for dwell times though.

 

[Energy]

The Javelin in its refurbished guise feels a lot more like a true "premium" product, arguably even nicer than LNER, as the ride quality is much smoother and the saloon quieter than the 80x or FLIRT at 80 - 90 miles/hour. Hugely better on station work times with a full load than 80x too, because there's no ludicrous step and less far to walk to any seat. Not as good as the 170/350/195 etc can achieve for dwell times though.

To be fair the HS1 track is much better than the ECML, and it is lower but doesn't have to fit an engine underneath.

 

[Starmill]

To be fair the HS1 track is much better than the ECML, and it is lower but doesn't have to fit an engine underneath.

I wasn't comparing them on HS1 and most pure diesel trains have floors which are at least a small step such as the class 170. Very different to 80x.

 

[Energy]

I wasn't comparing them on HS1 and most pure diesel trains have floors which are at least a small step such as the class 170. Very different to 80x.

The 80xs have bigger engines, though they could have gone with the 520hp engines in 195s with 1 per car and have been powerful enough

 

[Starmill]

The 80xs have bigger engines, though they could have gone with the 520hp engines in 195s with 1 per car and have been powerful enough

The point is that the design is flawed slightly in design concept and significantly in implementation. Wheras the 395 design and implementation escapes nearly all flaws.

 

[Dan G]

That's comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's comparing apples and oranges.

It's not, both are AT300 derivatives.

 

[REVUpminster]

Down here on the "Devon Metro" this week we have had 166s/165s 3 car (no 2 car 165s this week) 158s 3 and unsuitable 2 cars, 150s with the odd short form. A train is needed to replace 4 basic types so it needs 2 double leaf doors to cope with demand, needs at least the seating capacity of a 165. Okehampton, Barnstaple need extra trains in the peak as does Axminster which would bring growth which a half hour service has done for Torbay (3 soon to be 4 stations), Teignmouth, and Dawlish which have become commuter towns for Exeter.
Extra trains are need for Falmouth-Newquay because if the service became more frequent Newquay would be a growth area,
I know i'll be shot down but I would have 2+3 seating unless a new train can match at least the seating of a 3 car 165.

 

[Snow1964]

Down here on the "Devon Metro" this week we have had 166s/165s 3 car (no 2 car 165s this week) 158s 3 and unsuitable 2 cars, 150s with the odd short form. A train is needed to replace 4 basic types so it needs 2 double leaf doors to cope with demand, needs at least the seating capacity of a 165. Okehampton, Barnstaple need extra trains in the peak as does Axminster which would bring growth which a half hour service has done for Torbay (3 soon to be 4 stations), Teignmouth, and Dawlish which have become commuter towns for Exeter.
Extra trains are need for Falmouth-Newquay because if the service became more frequent Newquay would be a growth area,
I know i'll be shot down but I would have 2+3 seating unless a new train can match at least the seating of a 3 car 165.

Been lots of 2car formations on busy regional services like Portsmouth-Cardiff this week to.

Completely inadequate when people are travelling with lots of shopping, or suitcases to stay with relatives.

 

[Trainbike46]

I suspect you are right in the likely chosen manufacturer. It'll be Stadler, I'd bet my mortgage on it. I'm no fan, I've stated that before, just hope we don't end up with something that looks and feels like a 777. Cardiff to Portsmouth or Penzance is more intercity than the metro feel the route seems to be portrayed as these days. Lots and lots of people doing journeys of around 2 hours, especially on PZ to Cardiff, so in my view, some Stadler Metro contraption just won't cut it, but I fear and suspect that's what we will be lumbered with.

A GWR unit would bemuch more likely something like the FLIRT 755, 756 and 231, and at least the 755s I can say from experience are very nice units as a passenger! They are not metro units, but regional units and would fit well at GWR. The metro platform has so far only been used for metro-like services in the UK, like Merseyrail.

The 745 is a similar unit to the FLIRT 755 with a more intercity interior, so if GWR wants an intercity-style flirt I'm sure Stadler would be happy to build it

 

[Anonymous10]

A GWR unit would bemuch more likely something like the FLIRT 755, 756 and 231, and at least the 755s I can say from experience are very nice units as a passenger! They are not metro units, but regional units and would fit well at GWR. The metro platform has so far only been used for metro-like services in the UK, like Merseyrail.

The 745 is a similar unit to the FLIRT 755 with a more intercity interior, so if GWR wants an intercity-style flirt I'm sure Stadler would be happy to build it

Agreed having done journeys on all 3 flirt classes in the UK, I can whole heartedly agree they're regional express and would certainly be more than adequate for the gwr network.

 

[REVUpminster]

A class 165 3 car has 259 seats and standing for 86. A four car 755 has 202 plus 27 tip up seats, standing I don't know. A flirt does not seem an improvement to capacity unless you run more of them. I can't see them going to Barnstaple unless every half hour.

A four car 150/2 has 244 seats, two toilets and wasted space with the middle cabs. What's to replace them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A class 165 3 car has 259 seats and standing for 86. A four car 755 has 202 plus 27 tip up seats, standing I don't know. A flirt does not seem an improvement to capacity unless you run more of them. I can't see them going to Barnstaple unless every half hour.

The 165 is 3+2 and the FLIRT is 2+2. If you put 3+2 in the FLIRT you'd get a higher seated capacity, but it's now largely understood that going for narrow 2+2 to enable moving round the train and more standing space works better for local and regional stopping services.

 

[REVUpminster]

The 165 is 3+2 and the FLIRT is 2+2. If you put 3+2 in the FLIRT you'd get a higher seated capacity, but it's now largely understood that going for narrow 2+2 to enable moving round the train and more standing space works better for local and regional stopping services.

A four car flirt doesn't come up to a 150 in terms of capacity and has less doors.

 

[irish_rail]

Something like a CAF 197 would make more sense on GWR as they are similar journeys to the Cardiff to Manchester TFw corridor. However , from a staff perspective I'd suggest doing away with the massive walk through gangway doors, as the cab and cab side window on 197s look miniscule (though happy to be corrected with anyone who actually works them???)

 

[CarrotPie]

Something like a CAF 197 would make more sense on GWR as they are similar journeys to the Cardiff to Manchester TFw corridor. However , from a staff perspective I'd suggest doing away with the massive walk through gangway doors, as the cab and cab side window on 197s look miniscule (though happy to be corrected with anyone who actually works them???)

From a staff perspective, I'd argue the gangway would be quite essential on services such as Pompey-Cardiff because it allows passengers and staff to move to a quieter area of the train, do ticket checks, help passengers and so on.

 

[irish_rail]

From a staff perspective, I'd argue the gangway would be quite essential on services such as Pompey-Cardiff because it allows passengers and staff to move to a quieter area of the train, do ticket checks, help passengers and so on.

OK from a drivers perspective. Poor visibility is a problem for drivers.

 

[Benjwri]

From a staff perspective, I'd argue the gangway would be quite essential on services such as Pompey-Cardiff because it allows passengers and staff to move to a quieter area of the train, do ticket checks, help passengers and so on.

To be fair they manage fine on 5 car 166s, the trains are generally short enough for loading to be fairly even. I think the Elizabeth design displays very well that even totally walk through trains suffer from this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A four car flirt doesn't come up to a 150 in terms of capacity and has less doors.

FLIRT vehicles are short (16m if articulated at both ends so the same as a Pacer) so to be equivalent to a 4 car 150 you'd need 5 sections.

 

[Dan G]

Anything Churchward leads to will be DBEMU out of the box.