New Signalling, ROC's

[Daniel.howitt@]

I see that the new recontrol of MML has not got off to a flying start

 

[Freightmaster]

I see that the new recontrol of MML has not got off to a flying start

Incident: St Albans | National Rail

Disruption to Thameslink services between St Albans and London St Pancras International. Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

MARK

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Incident: St Albans | National Rail

Disruption to Thameslink services between St Albans and London St Pancras International. Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

MARK

It wasn't being moved to a ROC though just VDU screens in West Hampstead.

Another example of if it aint broke don't touch it.

 

[43066]

Incident: St Albans | National Rail

Disruption to Thameslink services between St Albans and London St Pancras International. Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

MARK

Nothing can get in or out of Cricklewood Depot, expected to be no EMR trains from St Pancras all day.

 

[Western 52]

The NR website has a great way to describe services on the MML today:-
"Trains running through the area in both directions cannot run".

 

[GardenRail]

It wasn't being moved to a ROC though just VDU screens in West Hampstead.

Another example of if it aint broke don't touch it.

Is it due to go to EMCC at any time in the future or is it staying down there?

 

[Daniel.howitt@]

Is it due to go to EMCC at any time in the future or is it staying down there?

Staying there. Siemens are the main contractors in regards to recontrol from the original 1970 NX panel to VDU. It has not got off to a flying start.

 

[LAX54]

I still have a few friends that haven’t retired from the railway and they have mentioned this point. Most of those who aren’t at least prepared to give it a try seem to get weeded out early on, but a few get through. A particular bugbear seems to be Sundays.

Recall back in the 80's I had a learner, did his time at Signalling School, and had done about a week or two at the box, doing a 9 to 5 roster, suggested to him one day he might like to get here at the start of service (box shut overnight) he said OK, what time, to which the answer was 0515, or a bit before to get setttled in and stoke fire up etc, he looked at me as though I was having a laugh, I asked if he knew the actual times, which he did not it seems! he had never even thought of asking! anyway he toddled off home that day at about 4pm........never saw him again ! lol

 

[Llanigraham]

They do a safety critical job, which is why I am surprised they are writing notes

All Safety Critical communication would be written into the TRB, which is a legal document. All have to be written ink and no alterations are allowed. Even the colour of the ink is specified.
I'm sorry but you really do not understand how a signaller works.

I am an old style signalman, but I have worked at desks. Having a keyboard that is only intermittently used in the way would strike me as a thorough nuisance. In particular, the inconvenience if you knock the key board when doing something else could be a serious distraction at times. Alternatively, you have to shuffle things about to move the keyboard or take your eye away from what you should be looking at. Train registers and incident books don’t have that risk: they just sit there, but are instantly ready.

Exactly this!
Also you need two hands for a keyboard, whereas I could take a phone call with my one hand and complete a form or enter into the TRB with my other hand, so the "note" was written as it happened.

 

[Steve Harris]

Staying there. Siemens are the main contractors in regards to recontrol from the original 1970 NX panel to VDU. It has not got off to a flying start.

Indeed.

There is now a dedicated thread here : https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thameslink-problems-27-dec-23.260096/ to discuss what happened or didn't happened correctly in the recontrol.

 

[Signal_Box]

From my dealings with recent recruits/trainees is that it is the exception to have someone who cares about, or has an interest in the job. For most, it's "just a job" and a general indifference to it. Some have even been surprised that they have to work weekends and shifts.

I don’t want to criticise trainees, however the majority now are only interested in the money much like a lot of trainee drivers see the headline salary and not the hassle you have to go through and put up to EARN that headline.

We’ve one lad who literally couldn’t stop banging on about how much he wanted to earn, I mean really kidda you’ve failed signalling school (he was sent back to us to await a new course) !

 

[cin88]

I don’t want to criticise trainees, however the majority now are only interested in the money much like a lot of trainee drivers see the headline salary and not the hassle you have to go through and put up to EARN that headline.

We’ve one lad who literally couldn’t stop banging on about how much he wanted to earn, I mean really kidda you’ve failed signalling school (he was sent back to us to await a new course) !

There's accusations going around on my region that the signalling school are passing candidates that they know aren't up to scratch just to keep their pass rates up for their performance reviews. I've certainly been critical about the quality of recent trainees on my patch.

Recall back in the 80's I had a learner, did his time at Signalling School, and had done about a week or two at the box, doing a 9 to 5 roster, suggested to him one day he might like to get here at the start of service (box shut overnight) he said OK, what time, to which the answer was 0515, or a bit before to get setttled in and stoke fire up etc, he looked at me as though I was having a laugh, I asked if he knew the actual times, which he did not it seems! he had never even thought of asking! anyway he toddled off home that day at about 4pm........never saw him again ! lol

This actually happened with my replacement as a station announcer a couple of years ago. Apparently she didn't like the prospect of working 3 different shifts over the course of a 12 week roster, with at least one sunday in every 3 being built into that, just completely ghosted the company one day.

 

[Signal_Box]

There's accusations going around on my region that the signalling school are passing candidates that they know aren't up to scratch just to keep their pass rates up for their performance reviews. I've certainly been critical about the quality of recent trainees on my patch.



This actually happened with my replacement as a station announcer a couple of years ago. Apparently she didn't like the prospect of working 3 different shifts over the course of a 12 week roster, with at least one sunday in every 3 being built into that, just completely ghosted the company one day.

I firmly believe there’s a lack of quality among the WDS doing the training, the majority have never been signallers or even in operations, those who have been signallers are only now WDS for one reason….and it isn’t the money !

A combination of poor course delivery, poor candidates and lack of in depth subject knowledge by the WDS is leading to trainees who are being set up to fail if they make it back to their SB.

I won’t train anymore, it’s not worth the stress or hassle from those ive seen ans heard lately I won’t be changing my mind anytime soon.

 

[Napier]

Tyneside became a ROC itself about a year ago. I think that might now be the long term intention.

They realised it's crazy to put all your eggs in just the one basket.

I firmly believe there’s a lack of quality among the WDS doing the training, the majority have never been signallers or even in operations, those who have been signallers are only now WDS for one reason….and it isn’t the money !

A combination of poor course delivery, poor candidates and lack of in depth subject knowledge by the WDS is leading to trainees who are being set up to fail if they make it back to their SB.

I won’t train anymore, it’s not worth the stress or hassle from those ive seen ans heard lately I won’t be changing my mind anytime soon.

I've heard other signallers who've trained fresh signallers in locations fresh out of IST haven't filled a TRB in.

I firmly believe there’s a lack of quality among the WDS doing the training, the majority have never been signallers or even in operations, those who have been signallers are only now WDS for one reason….and it isn’t the money !

A combination of poor course delivery, poor candidates and lack of in depth subject knowledge by the WDS is leading to trainees who are being set up to fail if they make it back to their SB.

I won’t train anymore, it’s not worth the stress or hassle from those ive seen ans heard lately I won’t be changing my mind anytime soon.

I don't train anymore either and haven't since covid, althought it's been indicated to me by the management distaste that they expect me to train new signallers.

 

[Signal_Box]

They realised it's crazy to put all your eggs in just the one basket.


I've heard other signallers who've trained fresh signallers in locations fresh out of IST haven't filled a TRB in.


I don't train anymore either and haven't since covid, althought it's been indicated to me by the management distaste that they expect me to train new signallers.

Show me where in my contract it says I’m required, and more importantly trained to train new signallers ? Is my reply when the same was suggested to me….still waiting.

 

[Steve Harris]

Getting slightly back on topic, I've spent a good 2 hours watching movements at Peterborough (PBO) on signalmaps today, (more interesting than watching repeats on TV) and noticed a lot of, let's say, "interesting" movements which don't really make sense to me. At one point the Down Fast had a freight sat on it for 1hr !! (So basically putting it out of commission for that length of time). And a stack of trains in a que behind it for a while as they waited to get filtered through Platform 4.

Quiet bewildering to say the least.

No idea if this was due to inexperience, lack of forward planning or lack of training.

But I have noticed the movements at PBO have got more interesting since the recontrol to York ROC.

Note: It wasn't a failure which blocked the Down Fast

 

[The Puddock]

I firmly believe there’s a lack of quality among the WDS doing the training, the majority have never been signallers or even in operations, those who have been signallers are only now WDS for one reason….and it isn’t the money !

A combination of poor course delivery, poor candidates and lack of in depth subject knowledge by the WDS is leading to trainees who are being set up to fail if they make it back to their SB.

I won’t train anymore, it’s not worth the stress or hassle from those ive seen ans heard lately I won’t be changing my mind anytime soon.

This is an excellent post. Without getting too specific, imagine if hypothetically there was a trainer (I really, really dislike the term ‘workforce delivery specialist’) who was recruited into the role off the street, was put through signalling school then within weeks was teaching the school without ever having worked let alone passed out in a box. They have no war stories to tell and no first hand experience to pass on. They simply teach the mechanics of how to work the simulator and read extracts from the Rule Book from a series of powerpoint slides. You might imagine that hypothetically sixty percent of the trainees the first course they taught might fail…

As you say, there is really no incentive for an experienced signaller to seek a job a trainer and from what I’ve seen, the quality of trainers can vary massively.

I've heard other signallers who've trained fresh signallers in locations fresh out of IST haven't filled a TRB in.

They don’t cover filling out a TRB on the course because apparently it’s too complicated. In the last few years I have encountered new starters who haven’t written anything at all in the book for some pretty big incidents. There are lots of bits of the Rule Book which aren’t covered on the current slimmed down 10 week course, which leaves whoever trains them back at the box to pick up the slack (or not, as the case may be). I’ve seen new starters baffled by some straightforward failures or slightly unusual moves - it’s not their fault but a lack of underpinning knowledge of how the railway and signalling system actually works is very evident. I should add that not every new starter is poor but I’ve encountered enough to suggest there is a big problem somewhere.

I’ve also recently heard of a new starter signaller who was instructed by their LOM to train another new starter from the following signalling school course within three weeks of the first one passing out at their location. It’s a recipe for disaster.

 

[TheBigD]

I’ve also recently heard of a new starter signaller who was instructed by their LOM to train another new starter from the following signalling school course within three weeks of the first one passing out at their location. It’s a recipe for disaster.

Yikes!

Newly passed out signallers in our area are not allowed anyone with them, training or otherwise, for the first 6 months following passing out.

 

[Signal_Box]

This is an excellent post. Without getting too specific, imagine if hypothetically there was a trainer (I really, really dislike the term ‘workforce delivery specialist’) who was recruited into the role off the street, was put through signalling school then within weeks was teaching the school without ever having worked let alone passed out in a box. They have no war stories to tell and no first hand experience to pass on. They simply teach the mechanics of how to work the simulator and read extracts from the Rule Book from a series of powerpoint slides. You might imagine that hypothetically sixty percent of the trainees the first course they taught might fail…

As you say, there is really no incentive for an experienced signaller to seek a job a trainer and from what I’ve seen, the quality of trainers can vary massively.


They don’t cover filling out a TRB on the course because apparently it’s too complicated. In the last few years I have encountered new starters who haven’t written anything at all in the book for some pretty big incidents. There are lots of bits of the Rule Book which aren’t covered on the current slimmed down 10 week course, which leaves whoever trains them back at the box to pick up the slack (or not, as the case may be). I’ve seen new starters baffled by some straightforward failures or slightly unusual moves - it’s not their fault but a lack of underpinning knowledge of how the railway and signalling system actually works is very evident. I should add that not every new starter is poor but I’ve encountered enough to suggest there is a big problem somewhere.

I’ve also recently heard of a new starter signaller who was instructed by their LOM to train another new starter from the following signalling school course within three weeks of the first one passing out at their location. It’s a recipe for disaster.

This is an excellent post. Without getting too specific, imagine if hypothetically there was a trainer (I really, really dislike the term ‘workforce delivery specialist’) who was recruited into the role off the street, was put through signalling school then within weeks was teaching the school without ever having worked let alone passed out in a box. They have no war stories to tell and no first hand experience to pass on. They simply teach the mechanics of how to work the simulator and read extracts from the Rule Book from a series of powerpoint slides. You might imagine that hypothetically sixty percent of the trainees the first course they taught might fail…

As you say, there is really no incentive for an experienced signaller to seek a job a trainer and from what I’ve seen, the quality of trainers can vary massively.


They don’t cover filling out a TRB on the course because apparently it’s too complicated. In the last few years I have encountered new starters who haven’t written anything at all in the book for some pretty big incidents. There are lots of bits of the Rule Book which aren’t covered on the current slimmed down 10 week course, which leaves whoever trains them back at the box to pick up the slack (or not, as the case may be). I’ve seen new starters baffled by some straightforward failures or slightly unusual moves - it’s not their fault but a lack of underpinning knowledge of how the railway and signalling system actually works is very evident. I should add that not every new starter is poor but I’ve encountered enough to suggest there is a big problem somewhere.

I’ve also recently heard of a new starter signaller who was instructed by their LOM to train another new starter from the following signalling school course within three weeks of the first one passing out at their location. It’s a recipe for disaster.

Yes, I’ve seen that as well. No a school freah trainee teaching another school fresh trainee, but a freshly passed out signaller on the panel (weeks) training another fresh trainee. The trainer was previously a G2 promotion to G7 who had very little in the way of panel awareness or multitasking skills - it was painful to watch.

 

[GardenRail]

Getting slightly back on topic, I've spent a good 2 hours watching movements at Peterborough (PBO) on signalmaps today, (more interesting than watching repeats on TV) and noticed a lot of, let's say, "interesting" movements which don't really make sense to me. At one point the Down Fast had a freight sat on it for 1hr !! (So basically putting it out of commission for that length of time). And a stack of trains in a que behind it for a while as they waited to get filtered through Platform 4.

Quiet bewildering to say the least.

No idea if this was due to inexperience, lack of forward planning or lack of training.

But I have noticed the movements at PBO have got more interesting since the recontrol to York ROC.

Note: It wasn't a failure which blocked the Down Fast

Worrying isn't it. No experience. No pride in the job. We've entered an era where the experience of time served employees, means absolutely nothing. People don't have to work their way up anymore. Straight into high grade jobs without the experience.

 

[Signal_Box]

Yikes!

Newly passed out signallers in our area are not allowed anyone with them, training or otherwise, for the first 6 months following passing out.

We’re so short the cleaner was next in line to work a panel if someone went sick!

Obviously I’m over egging here, but you get what I mean.

Worrying isn't it. No experience. No pride in the job. We've entered an era where the experience of time served employees, means absolutely nothing. People don't have to work their way up anymore. Straight into high grade jobs without the experience.

To be fair, and to add some balance I’ve had a few trainees fresh off school and out of grade into a busy G7 panel who where fantastic really into the job wanted to learn and listen. They were from other railway operational grades, and had a wider interest in the job which helped no end.

It’s not necessarily a good thing to work your way up from G2 to G5 to G9 etc if your only interested in the money with no interest or ability to do the job well.

 

[Steve Harris]

Worrying isn't it. No experience. No pride in the job. We've entered an era where the experience of time served employees, means absolutely nothing. People don't have to work their way up anymore. Straight into high grade jobs without the experience.

I don't know about worrying, I don't work on the railway!

I used to get invited up a signalbox back in the 1980's by the Sigi. I could never get the bell codes right !! So became a engineer.

My signalling knowledge would be playing DOS based signalling games (by Ashley Greenup or was it Bacup?) on the PC... that's pre SimSig btw.

Although saying that, I know PBO fairly well, and I have a good amount of common sense etc.

 

[Llanigraham]

Worrying isn't it. No experience. No pride in the job. We've entered an era where the experience of time served employees, means absolutely nothing. People don't have to work their way up anymore. Straight into high grade jobs without the experience.

Nothing new.
My signalling course 11 years ago had 2 people off the street going into Bristol Panel (Gr9?) and a couple going into Gr6 boxes.
And considering that the number of Gr2 or 3 "boxes" are becoming increasingly rare, how do you expect people to work their way up?

 

[GardenRail]

Nothing new.
My signalling course 11 years ago had 2 people off the street going into Bristol Panel (Gr9?) and a couple going into Gr6 boxes.
And considering that the number of Gr2 or 3 "boxes" are becoming increasingly rare, how do you expect people to work their way up?

Well something needs to get better. It's frankly embarrassing to Signallers who try to do a good job, hearing stories on here about poor regulation etc. I've never heard so many stories about Peterborough until early this year.

 

[Napier]

Show me where in my contract it says I’m required, and more importantly trained to train new signallers ? Is my reply when the same was suggested to me….still waiting.

Yes indeed many of us now are saying this.

This is an excellent post. Without getting too specific, imagine if hypothetically there was a trainer (I really, really dislike the term ‘workforce delivery specialist’) who was recruited into the role off the street, was put through signalling school then within weeks was teaching the school without ever having worked let alone passed out in a box. They have no war stories to tell and no first hand experience to pass on. They simply teach the mechanics of how to work the simulator and read extracts from the Rule Book from a series of powerpoint slides. You might imagine that hypothetically sixty percent of the trainees the first course they taught might fail…

As you say, there is really no incentive for an experienced signaller to seek a job a trainer and from what I’ve seen, the quality of trainers can vary massively.


They don’t cover filling out a TRB on the course because apparently it’s too complicated. In the last few years I have encountered new starters who haven’t written anything at all in the book for some pretty big incidents. There are lots of bits of the Rule Book which aren’t covered on the current slimmed down 10 week course, which leaves whoever trains them back at the box to pick up the slack (or not, as the case may be). I’ve seen new starters baffled by some straightforward failures or slightly unusual moves - it’s not their fault but a lack of underpinning knowledge of how the railway and signalling system actually works is very evident. I should add that not every new starter is poor but I’ve encountered enough to suggest there is a big problem somewhere.

I’ve also recently heard of a new starter signaller who was instructed by their LOM to train another new starter from the following signalling school course within three weeks of the first one passing out at their location. It’s a recipe for disaster.

Jesus!!!!

Yes the Big Bang is coming!

What I have noticed since the in person aptitude testing was removed and replaced with online things, the standard of applicants has clearly taken a nose dive.

 

[Signal_Box]

Nothing new.
My signalling course 11 years ago had 2 people off the street going into Bristol Panel (Gr9?) and a couple going into Gr6 boxes.
And considering that the number of Gr2 or 3 "boxes" are becoming increasingly rare, how do you expect people to work their way up?

On my route the number of SB reduces significantly over the next 18-24 months. Nothing higher than G3 outside the main SC which is in the far east of the route.

Yes indeed many of us now are saying this.


Jesus!!!!

Yes the Big Bang is coming!

What I have noticed since the in person aptitude testing was removed and replaced with online things, the standard of applicants has clearly taken a nose dive.

I remember sitting proper paper tests under exam conditions with that bloody lift test ! None of this online tests where anyone can do it for you…..

 

[Napier]

On my route the number of SB reduces significantly over the next 18-24 months. Nothing higher than G3 outside the main SC which is in the far east of the route.



I remember sitting proper paper tests under exam conditions with that bloody lift test ! None of this online tests where anyone can do it for you…..

Yes the lift test indeed I still have no idea how I got through that lol, I did the colour response test too in Manchester, the listenng skills and maths were timed if I recall, I've not done the online tests but guessing some candidates could easilly be substituted.

Yes, I’ve seen that as well. No a school freah trainee teaching another school fresh trainee, but a freshly passed out signaller on the panel (weeks) training another fresh trainee. The trainer was previously a G2 promotion to G7 who had very little in the way of panel awareness or multitasking skills - it was painful to watch.

We are very much of a "If your face fits and it ticks a diversity box these days" company!

 

[Signal_Box]

Yes the lift test indeed I still have no idea how I got through that lol, I did the colour response test too in Manchester, the listenng skills and maths were timed if I recall, I've not done the online tests but guessing some candidates could easilly be substituted.


We are very much of a "If your face fits and it ticks a diversity box these days" company!

To be fair, the women who have come through knock spots off some of the men, but then we have had one lady who didn’t last long and resigned.

I am one of the fairer sex, but I’ve been around long enough to remember and have enjoyed the level playing field world prior to the way it is now.

 

[Napier]

Worrying isn't it. No experience. No pride in the job. We've entered an era where the experience of time served employees, means absolutely nothing. People don't have to work their way up anymore. Straight into high grade jobs without the experience.

Experience counts for nothing these days, face fits, tick box, good old nepotism tick box, pink blue or purple hair tick box, correct pronuns for the hiring managers heart to melt tick box, etc etc.

I have no issue with anybody having a job they can do, they deserve and can deliver in it.

To be fair, the women who have come through knock spots off some of the men, but then we have had one lady who didn’t last long and resigned.

I some cases the women who have come through are brilliant, I agree knock spots off some of the blokes and I have no issues with them getting what they deserve on merit, one of the issues I've seen is the boys club nepotism mate of a mate who's as thick as mince, managers famly/mates etc are the problem.

 

[BrummieBobby]

This is an excellent post. Without getting too specific, imagine if hypothetically there was a trainer (I really, really dislike the term ‘workforce delivery specialist’) who was recruited into the role off the street, was put through signalling school then within weeks was teaching the school without ever having worked let alone passed out in a box. They have no war stories to tell and no first hand experience to pass on. They simply teach the mechanics of how to work the simulator and read extracts from the Rule Book from a series of powerpoint slides. You might imagine that hypothetically sixty percent of the trainees the first course they taught might fail…

As you say, there is really no incentive for an experienced signaller to seek a job a trainer and from what I’ve seen, the quality of trainers can vary massively.

Trust me, there is nothing hypothetical about it!

As an aside, this is a criticism I have had regarding brief days for as long as I can remember. The best brief days I have been on have involved the signallers, MOMs and other Ops staff present debating incidents and rules briefings, sharing our war stories, having a moan and learning from each other. Conversely, far too many brief days in recent times seem to consist of a briefer reading the slides word for word without any expansion, followed by a RED video, followed by a Cognito test that frankly any signaller with a pulse should be incapable of failing; such brief days are, to my mind, utterly pointless. I am not blind, I am not illiterate, if the sole input from the briefer is to read the slides that I can see on the screen back to me verbatim, then what purpose does it serve them being there?