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Disruption on HS1 due to signalling problems caused by flooding in the Thames Tunnel.

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djw

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Passengers really must try and get it into their heads, that when something can go wrong, they must think through what they would do if it does.
It is important to remember that the modern trend for DIY travel arrangements reduces the consumer protection you enjoy in these circumstances.

If you are travelling under package or linked travel arrangements then the organiser is liable for "repatriation of the traveller without undue delay and at no extra cost to the traveller" (regulation 15(13) of The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 (SI 2018/634) ('PTLTAR 2018')). When "unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances" prevent this, the organiser is liable for up to three nights of accommodation costs (regulation 15(14) PTLTAR 2018), though this liability for accommodation is unlimited if the party includes a person with reduced mobility, also for certain other people (regulation 15(15) PTLTAR 2018).

Which arrangements are in the scope of PTLTAR 2018 is rather complicated (see regulations 2 and 3 for details), but most contracts covering at least two of passenger carriage (i.e. rail/air/bus/coach/taxi), overnight accommodation or vehicle hire are in scope so long as the arrangements last for at least 24 hours or include overnight accommodation. In other words, if you book Eurostar and car hire or Eurostar and a hotel in a single contract, you would be on linked travel arrangements that are in scope of PTLTAR 2018.

As you rightly say, you should either insure for contingencies or acknowledge that you are self-insuring. If you have a valid PTLTAR 2018 claim then you should contact the organiser immediately for help, but there is a possibility that you will have to take reasonable self-help measures and claim back the costs later.
 
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jon0844

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The best way to deal with such issues for Eurostar travel would have been if we'd remained in the EU and actually sought to join the Schengen Area. Had this been the case, trains could have run and terminated anywhere with a platform for onward travel on other services, buses, coaches or whatever we liked.
 

CarrotPie

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Honestly a better idea if anything would be transfering people to a dedicated 387 or 395 at Ashford cross platform that then goes the classic route to st pancreas with special procedure to let them into the international platforms
Why specifically a 387 or 395? Drivers who have traction knowledge of either don't have the requisite route knowledge.
 

grinderx

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It is important to remember that the modern trend for DIY travel arrangements reduces the consumer protection you enjoy in these circumstances.

If you are travelling under package or linked travel arrangements then the organiser is liable for "repatriation of the traveller without undue delay and at no extra cost to the traveller" (regulation 15(13) of The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 (SI 2018/634) ('PTLTAR 2018')). When "unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances" prevent this, the organiser is liable for up to three nights of accommodation costs (regulation 15(14) PTLTAR 2018), though this liability for accommodation is unlimited if the party includes a person with reduced mobility, also for certain other people (regulation 15(15) PTLTAR 2018).

Which arrangements are in the scope of PTLTAR 2018 is rather complicated (see regulations 2 and 3 for details), but most contracts covering at least two of passenger carriage (i.e. rail/air/bus/coach/taxi), overnight accommodation or vehicle hire are in scope so long as the arrangements last for at least 24 hours or include overnight accommodation. In other words, if you book Eurostar and car hire or Eurostar and a hotel in a single contract, you would be on linked travel arrangements that are in scope of PTLTAR 2018.

As you rightly say, you should either insure for contingencies or acknowledge that you are self-insuring. If you have a valid PTLTAR 2018 claim then you should contact the organiser immediately for help, but there is a possibility that you will have to take reasonable self-help measures and claim back the costs later.

Eurostar really needs to spell this out because their rules differ from conventional trains and airlines. We now know that eurostar will just refund us if things go wrong and that we are on our own.

In terms of DIY packages I would like to see better clarity about end to end rail. We had to self assemble a trip onto tgv because eurostar had a longer booking window than sncf and indeed sncf didn't seem to allow bookings due to a December timetable change. Then we purchased civ tickets in the UK.

Yes we allowed time between journeys, had insurance, etc. But just how much knowledge is it reasonable to have? I'd never purchased uk civ tickets before but have been booking uk tickets for decades. Only learnt about hotnat before going to find that it doesn't apply anymore.

My point is that a normal traveller isn't an expert in routing, doesn't know an e300 from an e320, and just expects a reasonable level of support when things go wrong. Most people would be surprised at how a simple tunnel closure has led to so much disruption and that eurostar has offered zero support when a 400 quid return goes wrong.

Eurostar should be offering support above a refund and seeking to recover costs via legal routes or their own insurance. All part of the service right?
 

ComUtoR

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Drivers who have traction knowledge of either don't have the requisite route knowledge.

Get a route conductor / pilot ?

In any case, I think the Waterloo Curve is out of use again. (beside the current works)
 

popeter45

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Why specifically a 387 or 395? Drivers who have traction knowledge of either don't have the requisite route knowledge.
387 was mostly first dual mode that sprung to mind, any dual voltage electrostar would prob be fine
395 was for KVB at st pancras
 

Benjwri

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I think that all these ideas of 395s ferrying passengers from Ashford to St Pancras via conventional lines is forgetting Southeastern is not Eurostar.

Southeastern provided adequate ticket acceptance across their entire network for people who would’ve been on HS1, using existing services, which I did not see any complaints about being overcrowded. This therefore suggests that the provided services from Southeastern was adequate.

As an entirely separate company, Eurostar would have to pay Southeastern to run these separate services, including track access charges, drivers, guards etc etc, and I suspect in the same way as sourcing charter flights it would be prohibitively expensive. I have it idea of the cost but there is a point where they cannot be reasonably expected to run services as a company.
 

CarrotPie

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Why 387s anyway? They closest they run to Ashford is Hastings/Ore.
Well, quite. SE's 375/6s or 377/5s would do just as well.
Get a route conductor / pilot ?

In any case, I think the Waterloo Curve is out of use again. (beside the current works)
But a pilot means yet another crew member to find, pay, etc.

By "Waterloo Curve" I assume you mean the Linford Street Curve? That has been used semi-regularly for 707 transfers and other random movements. It's a lot easier to use than, say, Fawkham. But how would that help anyway? As said previously, it has zero international processing capacity.
387 was mostly first dual mode that sprung to mind, any dual voltage electrostar would prob be fine
395 was for KVB at st pancras
The problem of pathing still remains. The most efficient route I can see from Ashford is via Fawkham (so 395s), Herne Hill, the Thameslink Core and Copenhagen Tunnels (reverse). But of course that can't be pathed, so the next option would be via Redhill, the ELL, the NLL (transfer line OOU) and Camden Town (reverse), which is equally unrealistic.
 

jayah

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Any money or services you get during airline disruption is also paid for through insurance. The airlines would charge less for tickets if compensation etc wasn't required. It might not be explicitly marked as insurance but that's just because most airlines are large enough that they can self-insure. Some actuarian working for an airline has done the sums and worked out that essentially all disruption claims will be small enough that they don't need to pay Allianz or Prudential to cover the possibility. If you started up your own airline with just one plane and not a lot of cash in the bank you might choose differently, because those disruption claims could be quite a bit more than you can cover.

There's no reason why an airline couldn't offer a slightly higher ticket price that would offer this sort of cover. Indeed, it's what they do today where tickets that can be easily refunded or changed will cost more than inflexible tickets that can't be changed. Someone wanting to change their plans or cancel their tickets (in a situation where the airline is unlikely to be able to resell their ticket to someone else) is just an insurance claim like any other.

The popularity of super low cost and inflexible tickets suggests that most passengers, if given the choice, do actually prefer to take the risk if it means being able to do that travel at all. But, obviously, you then need to have a plan in case it does. The nature of air travel, and especially low-cost airline travel, makes those alternate plans a lot harder. People are generally a bit more trapped when they're at an airport. If everything were hub and spoke there'd be a bit more in-built flexibility but low-cost carriers are all about finding that there are enough people to fill a 737 return flight once a week from one random regional airport to another 3 hours away. And, of course, those low-cost fares mean any and all slack in the system gets wiped out so there's unlikely to be any spare seats at all, so the only way of getting people home is to find another plane. There are dry and wet leasing companies who would offer a 737 with or without crew at a few hours' notice for a replacement charter flight but the cost per passenger would be eye-watering compared to the £19.99 they probably paid for their original ticket.

So, avoiding the real risk of passenger mutiny at an airport might not be a bad idea for the airlines even if they could maybe eke out a bit more profit with it. I recall the problems when Monarch and Thomas Cook went bust and the CAA had to get everyone home. In principle, only those on ATOL-protected package holidays were actually entitled to this help. But, given the impossibility of getting a couple of British embassy/consulate staff to tell thousands of angry Brits in a check-in queue that they weren't actually flying home unless they cough up possibly hundreds for a new ticket, it made more sense just to treat everyone the same. The issue then is that people will expect that outcome in future, so they won't pay extra for the ATOL protection of a package holiday. Which, in turn, means that we probably need to just change the way we insure any British people travelling abroad for their holidays so that everyone pays their fair share.

Eurostar seems a fair bit closer to the hub and spoke model where self insurance would work. It's not like there's any real shortage of transport options from London to Brussels and Paris. It might be inconvenient, yes, but being stuck in the centre of a world city is hardly like being stuck at 2am at a regional airport where all the staff just want to go home and there's not even an hotel or public bus running nearby. If there were significant demand for higher fares with built-in insurance then Eurostar could just offer them.
Insurance is not the same at all. Compensation is paid for by the carrier, creating an incentive to minimise it. If one carrier has more disruption, under your own logic they have to raise fares and become uncompetitive. That is very different from using travel insurance to dump the costs of their failure on the whole market, which is what Eurostar do here. It is clearly unfair that Eurostar can get away with this, but any airline flying the same routes cannot.

The popularity of less expensive or inflexible fares does not prove anything about travellers willingness to tolerate non-performance and dumping of responsibility by a carrier. It is one of the more outrageous trends that carriers including domestic rail will assign a zero value to an Advance fare if the customer misses the train by 1min, but will happily cancel a raft of services and refund only a fraction of the face value. If a carrier strands a passenger in any city overnight, most people would expect the carrier to pay - there we never be a demand for this as some sort of 'value added' packge.
 

D6130

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The best way to deal with such issues for Eurostar travel would have been if we'd remained in the EU and actually sought to join the Schengen Area. Had this been the case, trains could have run and terminated anywhere with a platform for onward travel on other services, buses, coaches or whatever we liked.
The best way to deal with such issues for Eurostar travel would have been if we'd remained in the EU and actually sought to join the Schengen Area. Had this been the case, trains could have run and terminated anywhere with a platform for onward travel on other services, buses, coaches or whatever we liked.
Fully agree!
 

jayah

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I think that all these ideas of 395s ferrying passengers from Ashford to St Pancras via conventional lines is forgetting Southeastern is not Eurostar.

Southeastern provided adequate ticket acceptance across their entire network for people who would’ve been on HS1, using existing services, which I did not see any complaints about being overcrowded. This therefore suggests that the provided services from Southeastern was adequate.

As an entirely separate company, Eurostar would have to pay Southeastern to run these separate services, including track access charges, drivers, guards etc etc, and I suspect in the same way as sourcing charter flights it would be prohibitively expensive. I have it idea of the cost but there is a point where they cannot be reasonably expected to run services as a company.
The compensation Eurostar will be getting from HS1 would wipe out these fairly trivial costs. Track access would be a direct offset against not paying for their own trains to use HS1.
 

jayah

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Perhaps the best option would be to make Ebbsfleet International or Ashford International available for Eurostar passengers (or at least make them usable at short notice), augmenting services on the conventional lines as far as possible to disperse Eurostar passengers when St Pancras International is out of action. However, the readiness costs are unlikely to be justifiable unless passenger demand justifies Eurostar stopping at Ebbsfleet or Ashford in normal service.

The only other alternative, which is more far-fetched, is putting passengers on coaches, driving them to Folkestone and running additional shuttles in the Eurostar Channel Tunnel slots. Considering the long-running availability issues for rail-replacement buses, this seems unlikely to work.

As others have pointed out, the costs of additional contingency will be reflected in ticket prices.
This is exactly why Eurostar needs to be brought into scope of the UK successor to EU261. The costs of their repeated non-performance are being dumped on travellers - both directly and through travel insurance. It is far too easy for them to say 'get lost, but we'll refund your ticket' and get away with it. Even a 4hr delay is only a 50% refund on the affected leg.
 

popeter45

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The problem of pathing still remains. The most efficient route I can see from Ashford is via Fawkham (so 395s), Herne Hill, the Thameslink Core and Copenhagen Tunnels (reverse). But of course that can't be pathed, so the next option would be via Redhill, the ELL, the NLL (transfer line OOU) and Camden Town (reverse), which is equally unrealistic.
with Fawkham
without Fawkham

neither need reversing anywhere
 

Gloster

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The basic problem is the philosophy behind the operation. Eurostar see it is a commercial operation and look to the bottom line: if the costs and reputational damage done by such an incident is less than the costs of maintaining emergency arrangements, then they won’t retain such arrangements. Their profits are what they are there for. And the government gives them free rein to do so. Passengers see it as a service, but until they start boycotting Eurostar or the government imposes minimum standards, backed up by painful fines or rules about compensation, Eurostar will just keep on as now. And, yes, I do realise that imposing conditions retrospectively is difficult, even if the government was willing, which no British government is likely to be.
 

Joe Paxton

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I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion of the root cause of this particular issue, in particular where the water came from. The latest I've seen is that Thames Water and HS1 seem to disagree about the source of the water.
[...]

My uniformed thoughts were that when you've got a huge volume of water coming out of a specific pipe then the source should probably be obvious, but clearly that's not so!


Agreed, I'm surprised by the apparent lack of discussion here about the cause of the tunnel flooding - I thought similarly looking and listening to a few news reports yesterday.

The pertinent questions of exactly what happened and why seem to remain unanswered so far!
 

NotATrainspott

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The basic problem is the philosophy behind the operation. Eurostar see it is a commercial operation and look to the bottom line: if the costs and reputational damage done by such an incident is less than the costs of maintaining emergency arrangements, then they won’t retain such arrangements. Their profits are what they are there for. And the government gives them free rein to do so. Passengers see it as a service, but until they start boycotting Eurostar or the government imposes minimum standards, backed up by painful fines or rules about compensation, Eurostar will just keep on as now. And, yes, I do realise that imposing conditions retrospectively is difficult, even if the government was willing, which no British government is likely to be.

Eurostar acts as a painful reminder that the UK is in fact only 20 miles from France and the rest of Europe. Flights from France can be mixed in and processed the same as those from the US or India or China but with Eurostar we have a totally dedicated transport mode for travel to the EU. So, you can't exactly blame heavily Eurosceptic governments for having precisely zero interest in it whatsoever. If you're meant to be all about the UK going out into the world then why should you care so much about what goes on at St Pancras (or Ebbsfleet and Ashford) when you actually reach the world by heading out from Heathrow?
 

zwk500

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Any circumstance in which HS1 is closed between Ashford and London. I assume the basic infrastructure at Ashford is maintained, if not that is disgraceful. As to the level of readiness, turn on the lights, computers etc and ready to operate.
So say 24 hours notice for use.

This is one of the blights of the railway, the idea that stuff not being used immediately gets no care and maintainence. For a while we used the shorthand "mothballed" which translated into English as "left to deteriorate".
The infrastructure at Ashford is maintained, the passenger side is mothballed. Anything being kept at 24hr readiness will need to be maintained to as good as daily operations, which will cost a lot more than the current state of readiness (requiring weeks to reopen if not months).
As for any incident that would close HS1 between Ashford and London, it is extremely.rare there would be more than 24hr total closure of HS1 so by the time you get your backup running the line will be open again to St Pancras.
 

21C101

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The basic problem is the philosophy behind the operation. Eurostar see it is a commercial operation and look to the bottom line: if the costs and reputational damage done by such an incident is less than the costs of maintaining emergency arrangements, then they won’t retain such arrangements. Their profits are what they are there for. And the government gives them free rein to do so. Passengers see it as a service, but until they start boycotting Eurostar or the government imposes minimum standards, backed up by painful fines or rules about compensation, Eurostar will just keep on as now. And, yes, I do realise that imposing conditions retrospectively is difficult, even if the government was willing, which no British government is likely to be.
Nothing stopping parliament passing a bill imposing such eyewatering penalties for the likes of yesterday that it is cheaper than just giving up. They could also include a clause that ordered all services to call at Ashford, which solves the problem of Ashford not being set up when something like this happens.

Also, while the immediate costs of doing what Eurostar did in refunds might be less than the cost of terminating at Ashford and having a Javelin connection, they will in the future be holed below the waterline commercially as they will be seen as unreliable.

I and my family travel free on it aside from port taxes, but after this I will take my chances on Easyjet at Luton Airport as a paying customer, rather than risk my family getting caught in a fiasco like this.
 

Benjwri

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Also, while the immediate costs of doing what Eurostar did in refunds might be less than the cost of terminating at Ashford and having a Javelin connection, they will in the future be holed below the waterline commercially as they will be seen as unreliable.

I and my family travel free on it aside from port taxes, but after this I will take my chances on Easyjet at Luton Airport as a paying customer, rather than risk my family getting caught in a fiasco like this.
Because airlines can’t provide an unreliable service? I’ve had delays of over 24 hours 4 times in the last decade, and fairly serious delays more times than I can count on airlines. Airlines are far more susceptible to delays because of weather; and when that happens you’re in the exact same situation.

I’ve had far fewer delays on Eurostar, and usually for shorter amounts of time. I wouldn’t say this one incident is going to, or should, give them a reputation as unreliable. Especially given it’s all too common for airlines to have no backup plan when there are technical failures, and they are unwilling to fly out extra planes.
 

Benjwri

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Nothing stopping parliament passing a bill imposing such eyewatering penalties for the likes of yesterday that it is cheaper than just giving up. They could also include a clause that ordered all services to call at Ashford, which solves the problem of Ashford not being set up when something like this happens.
Firstly forcing a company which the government willingly gave up its interest in years ago to conduct their business in the way the government is absolutely unprecedented, would likely cause a diplomatic incident with the French government, given their controlling stake in Eurostar and would set a dangerous precedent which would not be taken lightly by any company currently operating in the UK.

As for making it so expensive Eurostar has to do what you want, what do you think is going to happen to those costs? The answer is they’re passed onto the customers, and all of us who don’t have the privilege of being able to travel for free end up paying more every time we travel.

If you want a company that can act as the DfT’s puppet they shouldn’t have sold their stake, or they should create their own competitor that they can order around.
 

bahnause

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Nothing stopping parliament passing a bill imposing such eyewatering penalties for the likes of yesterday that it is cheaper than just giving up. They could also include a clause that ordered all services to call at Ashford, which solves the problem of Ashford not being set up when something like this happens.
Common sense does stop them. Of course, these cost risks would then have to be earned in normal operations. In other words, with higher ticket prices.

This is precisely why penalties for train orders are not infinitely high. You would either have to pay an unreasonably high price or not receive any offers at all.
 

WelshBluebird

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Firstly forcing a company which the government willingly gave up its interest in years ago to conduct their business in the way the government is absolutely unprecedented.
I'm not convinced strict regulation of a private company is that unprecedented to be honest! Plenty of other industries are tightly regulated to similar degrees.
 

Benjwri

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I'm not convinced strict regulation of a private company is that unprecedented to be honest! Plenty of other industries are tightly regulated to similar degrees.
There is plenty of regulation for what businesses can and can’t do, but there is no regulation along that lines of a business having to provide a certain product, which they would be effectively doing by making them stop at Ashford.

I would also be happy to correct myself if you can provide a single example of a law targeting a specific company, such as Eurostar. They are very unlikely to create a law saying any service must stop at Ashford given the amount of potential operators, who would be likely scared away by such a law.
 

njamescouk

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There is plenty of regulation for what businesses can and can’t do, but there is no regulation along that lines of a business having to provide a certain product, which they would be effectively doing by making them stop at Ashford.

I would also be happy to correct myself if you can provide a single example of a law targeting a specific company, such as Eurostar. They are very unlikely to create a law saying any service must stop at Ashford given the amount of potential operators, who would be likely scared away by such a law.
parliamentary trains come to mind, but not sure that's an exact analogy.
 

Benjwri

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parliamentary trains come to mind, but not sure that's an exact analogy.
Which are run by TOCs, who have a contract with the government to run certain train services which the government dictates, and are paid by the government to do so. In this context the government is the ‘client’ and so can dictate the service it is paying for.

Eurostar has no relation to the government anymore and is not paid by them, they pay the government (Network Rail/HS1) for access to the infrastructure they run on. The only powers the government has over their services is the track access rights, which they could try to renegotiate but it’s unlikely they’d be successful
 
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