• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Disruption on HS1 due to signalling problems caused by flooding in the Thames Tunnel.

Status
Not open for further replies.

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,150
I haven't seen any mention of an insurance claim from Eurostar for the non-availability of the line and consequential costs.
The line may be owned by HS1, so they should be able to claim from whosever fault the leak was, but can Eurostar claim consequential losses from HS1. If so, would that not cover the cost of putting passengers up in hotels etc, but more pertinently, could it also be used for the short-notice set up costs of establishing border controls at Ashford? If Eurostar had already established a 'pop-up' border control service funded by themselves, they might be able to reclaim these costs in the insurance claim.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,165
Location
Airedale
Nothing stopping parliament passing a bill imposing such eyewatering penalties for the likes of yesterday that it is cheaper than just giving up. They could also include a clause that ordered all services to call at Ashford, which solves the problem of Ashford not being set up when something like this happens.
Leaving aside the minor detail that Ashford AIUI has nothing like the capacity for 900 passengers at a time, because it was designed as an intermediate station not a duplicate terminus.

There is a world of difference between having a facility for 90 and one for 900!
 

flitwickbeds

Member
Joined
19 Apr 2017
Messages
529
Because airlines can’t provide an unreliable service? I’ve had delays of over 24 hours 4 times in the last decade, and fairly serious delays more times than I can count on airlines. Airlines are far more susceptible to delays because of weather; and when that happens you’re in the exact same situation.

I’ve had far fewer delays on Eurostar, and usually for shorter amounts of time. I wouldn’t say this one incident is going to, or should, give them a reputation as unreliable. Especially given it’s all too common for airlines to have no backup plan when there are technical failures, and they are unwilling to fly out extra planes.
But I think the point being made is that when flying, there is a legal responsibility on the airlines to feed you, put you up in a hotel, AND to compensate you quite a lot of money during any disruption, if they are unable to find you another way of getting to your destination.

Compared to Eurostar, who say "we can't get you there, go to our website to get a refund on your ticket, bye". As far as I know, yesterday's offers of hotel stays and ferry acceptance was a goodwill gesture on Eurostar's part (and maybe reciprocal arrangements are permanently in place between the ferry operators and Eurostar, ready to activate at a moment's notice?). But, to my knowledge, Eurostar did not HAVE to do anything other than refund the ticket (which is covered by the consumer rights act, goods or services paid for not received and/or contract cannot be fulfilled)
 
Joined
7 Jan 2009
Messages
869
Can I politely suggest that it might be useful for all to do a bit more homework here? Amongst other aspects:

a) Eurostar is covered by the EU Passenger Rights Regulation, which as you have discovered is not hugely generous and certainly less advantageous than offered domestically in the UK. The companpy could offer more, but it's up to them commercially if they do this as there no further regulation beyond standard consumer law, and
b) The Channel Tunnel is also covered by its own security regime so, in addition to Schengen/Border Controls, the ability to check passenger and goods has been regarded as essential by the Governments ever since service began almost 30 years ago.. So the need for tight control over boarding, using dedicated platforms is effectively a given (just see the lengths that NS have had to go here to get their (small) boarding areas as Rotterdam and Amerstdam CS: the authorities, having got this in for Eurostar from the start (er.... I was there) would be highly unlikely to move from it, in my view...
 

JKF

Member
Joined
29 May 2019
Messages
710
The ferries don’t do anything for you if they are cancelled. I turned up in Bilbao in the evening a few years ago with an estate car full of many of the family’s belongings to find my overnight ferry had been cancelled due to storms in the Bay of Biscay. Try finding overnight accommodation with secure parking late at night in a country you don’t speak the language of. Not easy, and I didn‘t get a penny back to cover the cost of it. Eurostar probably operates under similar rules (or lack of them)
 

DAN.CHAMBERS20

New Member
Joined
31 Dec 2023
Messages
3
Location
Uk
Regardless of the limitations of the infrastructure as others have pointed out the public expect the same experience from Eurostar as provided by Airlines or other rail services.

Even if Eurostar can reclaim lost revenue from HS1 or Network Rail High Speed or Thames Water it still has suffered a massive hit to it's reputation when it is trying to conquest customers from other forms of transport.

Hence it would seem to be a good commercial arrangement to have contingency plans of some form to maintain some level of service in these scenarios. This would surely be the need to have at least some part of the fleet classic compatible to allow running via NLL connection to Fawkham or Ashford. In the same way that Pendolinos can be dragged via Thunderbird 57s. If the units can't power themselves then they need a locomotive that can drag them with passengers. Not denying this isn't a technical challenge but it's not insurmountable and the more services that run on HS1 the more a backup plan is required.
 
Joined
22 Jun 2023
Messages
852
Location
Croydon
Any of the diversion plans are just choosing different bunches of London commuters to throw under the bus for the Paris passengers who seemingly are more important and can't tolerate a few days up in a hotel until it gets fixed or they can find an easyjet. It's not the BR days where you had the spare paths to do this kind of stuff anymore, you'll leave a wave of cancellations in your wake. I imagine the average Eurostar passenger is a lot more likely to be in a more middle class job that will tolerate you overrunning your holiday by a few days
 
Last edited:

Benjwri

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2022
Messages
1,895
Location
Bath
Regardless of the limitations of the infrastructure as others have pointed out the public expect the same experience from Eurostar as provided by Airlines or other rail services.
As I mentioned above the airlines are far worse in my opinion. I’ve been delayed more than 24 hours 4 times in the last 10 years. Twice on the ground the airlines gave no support, and told us they were unable to find hotels (Surprisingly (some would say) we found them by ourselves within minutes). One time the airline told us they wouldn’t even be arranging a flight the next day, from an airport with no commercial flights that we could book.

My point is claiming the airlines are so much better is plainly not true. I know multiple people who’ve had to sleep on terminal floors, and have heard and had horror stories trying to find compensation, with them finding every loophole to get out. As far as I’m aware people weren’t sleeping on floors, and people had hotels, transport to/from and meals paid for, which is the best I’ve ever had from any airline where nothing has been able to leave that day.
 

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
3,618
As I mentioned above the airlines are far worse in my opinion. I’ve been delayed more than 24 hours 4 times in the last 10 years. Twice on the ground the airlines gave no support, and told us they were unable to find hotels (Surprisingly (some would say) we found them by ourselves within minutes). One time the airline told us they wouldn’t even be arranging a flight the next day, from an airport with no commercial flights that we could book.

My point is claiming the airlines are so much better is plainly not true. I know multiple people who’ve had to sleep on terminal floors, and have heard and had horror stories trying to find compensation, with them finding every loophole to get out. As far as I’m aware people weren’t sleeping on floors, and people had hotels, transport to/from and meals paid for, which is the best I’ve ever had from any airline where nothing has been able to leave that day.
Just this year BA cancelled my Salzburg to London flight, staff at airport disappeared and call centre was inundated with calls with a 2 hour wait time.

Made to buy our own tickets for a new flight from a different country, so had to pay to get there, hotel and new flights, flights were £600 per person!

Luckily I had money to pay for it at the time.

In my eyes BA were no diffferent to Eurostar which was basically sort yourself out and claim some cost back.
 

DAN.CHAMBERS20

New Member
Joined
31 Dec 2023
Messages
3
Location
Uk
As I mentioned above the airlines are far worse in my opinion. I’ve been delayed more than 24 hours 4 times in the last 10 years. Twice on the ground the airlines gave no support, and told us they were unable to find hotels (Surprisingly (some would say) we found them by ourselves within minutes). One time the airline told us they wouldn’t even be arranging a flight the next day, from an airport with no commercial flights that we could book.

My point is claiming the airlines are so much better is plainly not true. I know multiple people who’ve had to sleep on terminal floors, and have heard and had horror stories trying to find compensation, with them finding every loophole to get out. As far as I’m aware people weren’t sleeping on floors, and people had hotels, transport to/from and meals paid for, which is the best I’ve ever had from any airline where nothing has been able to leave that day.
Wasn't saying that the airlines are saints, just that people have expectations that doesn't match what Eurostar has provided which is not a good selling point...

Hence the point about creating a suitable alternative when there is disruption to maintain at least some level of service. There is always a likelihood a line will be disrupted and so need alternatives. As many have said some service even if delayed is better than none
 

Edsmith

Member
Joined
21 Dec 2021
Messages
569
Location
Staplehurst
Any of the diversion plans are just choosing different bunches of London commuters to throw under the bus for the Paris passengers who seemingly are more important and can't tolerate a few days up in a hotel until it gets fixed or they can find an easyjet. It's not the BR days where you had the spare paths to do this kind of stuff anymore, you'll leave a wave of cancellations in your wake. I imagine the average Eurostar passenger is a lot more likely to be in a more middle class job that will tolerate you overrunning your holiday by a few days
Most commuters on are on their Christmas break and I don't think it's unreasonable to prioritise people who have booked holidays etc over people who are just going to get home a bit later than they otherwise would have done.
 

Kenny G

Member
Joined
20 Mar 2014
Messages
57
I know which is why I mentioned if stratford had lived up to its name. Meaningless now as I’ve realised that the Thames tunnel I assumed the flooding was is the wrong one. Assumed it was the bit between Stratford and St Pancras.
Please correct me if I am wrong but there isn't a Thames tunnel between Stratford and St Pancreas. The tunnel does go under the Lea at one point.
 

Benjwri

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2022
Messages
1,895
Location
Bath
Most commuters on are on their Christmas break and I don't think it's unreasonable to prioritise people who have booked holidays etc over people who are just going to get home a bit later than they otherwise would have done.
In this specific case no, but these ideas have been given as what the Eurostar should’ve had as its contingency whenever this happened, so 72% of the time it would.

Also worth thinking about how people using these trains could still have places to get to, some of which will be time critical, and it’s not unreasonable to guess some might have planes or trains to take.
 

urpert

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2015
Messages
1,164
Location
Essendine or between Étaples and Rang-du-Fliers
The best way to deal with such issues for Eurostar travel would have been if we'd remained in the EU and actually sought to join the Schengen Area. Had this been the case, trains could have run and terminated anywhere with a platform for onward travel on other services, buses, coaches or whatever we liked.
Although I’d support this, I would suggest this is the least realistic of any of the suggestions on here :D
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,224
Insurance is not the same at all. Compensation is paid for by the carrier, creating an incentive to minimise it. If one carrier has more disruption, under your own logic they have to raise fares and become uncompetitive. That is very different from using travel insurance to dump the costs of their failure on the whole market, which is what Eurostar do here. It is clearly unfair that Eurostar can get away with this, but any airline flying the same routes cannot.

The popularity of less expensive or inflexible fares does not prove anything about travellers willingness to tolerate non-performance and dumping of responsibility by a carrier. It is one of the more outrageous trends that carriers including domestic rail will assign a zero value to an Advance fare if the customer misses the train by 1min, but will happily cancel a raft of services and refund only a fraction of the face value. If a carrier strands a passenger in any city overnight, most people would expect the carrier to pay - there we never be a demand for this as some sort of 'value added' packge.

Yes, it is.

The point of insurance as a distinct financial product is to cover you in the unlikely case you win the reverse lottery and end up owing someone huge sums of money. Since these events are rare, the most efficient thing for people to do is to pool together. A million people paying a £100 a year premium means a pot of £100m a year to pay out claims. That's enough to cover the maybe 10,000 people who have to claim back £10k a year, or 1000 people claiming £100k. The most likely events are the cheapest ones and insurance normally involves an excess, so that people don't claim for things that they could actually afford.

The main risk of running an insurance pool like this is that it will run out of money because, through sheer bad luck or extremely bad risk planning, it is having to pay out more than it receives in premiums. This risk is mitigated by spreading and diluting the risk further. Either you have to make really sure that there's no chance of a huge set of claims, or you pool further with other insurance pools in a reinsurance market. The first one is like a big home insurer having a policy to prevent them from insuring more than 10% of the properties in a street, town or area of the country in case there's a big flood or earthquake. The second one is a big thing and there are big companies like Allianz and Prudential who make it happen on a global multi-trillion dollar scale.

The other option, of course, is to increase the premiums based on individual risk. If you have a home in a flood-prone area you're going to have to declare that to your insurer and pay more. If you want to own a Range Rover in London you're probably going to be paying a lot because of the very real risk that it'll be stolen or vandalised.

For insurance the buck ultimately stops at the state level. IRA bombings meant that central London office buildings were uninsurable so the government ended up agreeing to be the insurer of last resort. For quite a bit of the world's economy, the insurer of last resort against human threats is, somewhat indirectly, the United States Department of Defense. There's no financial provider in the world who would give Big Tech companies the insurance they would need in case of PRC interference in Taiwan but the investment keeps on humming because there are B-2s and supercarrier strike groups only a few hours away.

We force people to buy insurance in certain circumstances because of the very real risk they will cause expensive negative externalities for the rest of us to deal with if they don't. Car insurance is one such striking example. No one is exempt from having car insurance because there's essentially no cap on how much damage you could theoretically cause other people as a result of your driving. All the very expensive lawyers involved in the Great Heck train crash car insurance claims summing tens of millions of pounds can attest to that. Likewise we force people to buy health insurance because we also won't refuse to treat patients in emergencies. In the UK we do that through non-hypotheticated central government taxation but the basic principle is the same in all other developed countries, including the United States.

Where does a train being cancelled fall into this? It really is on the low end of the spectrum, comparatively. The sums would only get really big if cancellations were going on for a long time - e.g. if the Channel Tunnel had an incident which forced it to be closed for months or years. Even then, the total payout would be limited to the people who had already bought tickets. Anyone who would take a refund for a cancelled future journey means the liability gets capped at that because they'd never need to worry about alternate travel or accommodation options for them any more. So in practice it's just the people already on the trains and already waiting to travel who really cause any meaningful insurance payouts.

With the risk of payout being so small it isn't at all surprising that Eurostar has just chosen to self-insure where it has. And, we haven't felt it necessary to compel passengers to possess full travel insurance for their journey, so Eurostar has ended up reducing fares by reducing the level of insurance they provide. This is all within a dynamic and competitive market for cross-Channel travel. Eurostar is competing against airlines (if it increased fares, then London-Paris flights would reappear) and other ground transport like coaches and walk-on ferries plus rail travel.

The way we've optimised ticketing for planes, trains and to a limited extent coaches and ferries is by going for yield management. The marginal cost of filling another seat on a service which runs anyway is essentially nil, so a huge amount of effort goes into making sure that all of the services are filled up even if it means offering cheap tickets. We can judge how important a journey is to someone by how much they are willing to pay for it. A business traveller on expenses will spend a lot on a ticket if that is critical for them to be where they need to be for their work. Someone trying to get home to see a family member before they die will probably shell out quite a lot of money for that opportunity. Tourists, on the other hand, normally end up wanting to spend as little as possible in order to maximise the amount of tourism they can do for their fixed budget. At the Eurostar terminals or airports you'll find a mix of all of these different passengers, and they generally won't know how much they paid vs anyone else.

If yield management results in every last seat being filled in order to maximise revenue, then there just won't be any slack when anything goes wrong. That problem of marginal and fixed costs means that any possible slack will end up being used. If there is path and traincrew and train availability for another service, then that service will probably end up being run and yield-manage filled up. So long as the additional marginal cost of that extra service can be covered by ticket revenue, it's a good idea as it'll help to spread the fixed costs of the infrastructure and company operations further and increase profitability. The more profitable the service is, the more services will be run, which in turn is what makes it possible for people to do business or family or tourist travel in the first place. People might be upset about being charged an appropriate amount for a last-minute ticket to see a dying relative, but the alternative is that the option wouldn't exist at all at any price. The lack of remaining 3.5 hour flight options from London to New York has probably meant that a few people haven't been able to do just that, but they don't grumble about something that doesn't exist.

If you have a short notice supply shortage, what is the correct strategy to rebalance demand to match? As above it's rarely easy to conjure up a like for like replacement, so that everyone who has a ticket will still be able to use it for travel that same day. Even if it were, for disruption like this it's quite probable that it wouldn't be directly comparable anyway. Running a rail replacement coach service down the M20 and onto a cross-Channel ferry and then to Lille is not the service that Eurostar offers. If you have a ticket for the 10:00 service and you need to be in central Paris for 14:00 local time then it won't actually do you any good at all. If there's no way for you to get there on time, then it might not be worth you travelling at all. If Eurostar were forced to allocate a seat on this cross-Channel rail replacement bus service for you then it would be a waste of everyone's time and resources.

Central planning doesn't work because it doesn't allow for individuals to select from their own set of trade-offs. Each and every passenger waiting for their Eurostar has their own. For many, if there's disruption on this magnitude, it would just be easier and better for them to abandon their travel. Staying another night in a hotel isn't the end of the world. For others, if the journey really is that critical, then it will make sense for them to start coming up with alternate plans. What the best alternate travel plan is really does depend on their own individual circumstances.

If there is a gap here that can be filled to improve major disruption situations then it is actually an information sharing problem. Once the Eurostar service is cancelled, it needs to be as easy as possible for people to find out what their alternate travel options really are. If hopping downstairs to the Thameslink platforms and going up to Luton or down to Gatwick for a flight to somewhere near Paris is factually possible and desirable for a traveller given their individual circumstances, then making it easy for them to find that out and buy that ticket would make life easier for everyone. If it were easy for passengers to be matched by their final destination so that some could actually work out that there's 4 people all planning to go to a little village east of Reims and they may as well do a group hire car rental, then it would make life easier for everyone. If a coach company could find out that there are 50 people all in Central London who are willing to pay for that impromptu rail replacement service, and they have a bus and driver ready, then it would make life easier for everyone.

Alternate flights and transport options being fully booked already is actually also an information problem. On that Gatwick flight to Paris there probably are a bunch of tourists who only paid £40 for their tickets. To the airline, modulo any requirements for Advance Passenger Information or no-fly lists, it doesn't really matter who fills each seat on the plane. Indeed, all they care about is that someone paid for that seat. So, if you do have a new shortage of supply, it makes a lot of sense to give existing passengers on a route the information that someone else is willing to buy their ticket off of them. If you're just planning a day trip or otherwise have a flexible itinerary, would you not seriously consider the option of selling your ticket to someone who needs it more? Indirectly this is how airlines manage overbooking today: if there are too many people booked on and turning up for a flight, the best option is to find the passengers who are happy to be compensated for giving up their ticket.

When people complain about the efforts they had to go through to get to their final destination they are actually declaring just how important that journey was to them. If they are able to make that journey, then it means the system generally worked. If it meant hiring a taxi to speed down the M20 to catch that last ferry of the day in order to see a family member before they died, then it wasn't unsuccessful. The main issue now is that fixing the problem is complex, and there are many passengers who will struggle. There isn't a magic wand to be waved here other than them coughing up for someone else to deal with the complexity for them. If you're a group of pensioners who can barely use a smartphone and you need to get to Paris by 14:00 then in all truth you should be paying someone to organise it. It's just insurance. If it all goes to plan, then the fee seems to be for nothing. If it all goes to pot, then that fee means there'd be someone sitting in a control room with a bunch of screens working out how to get you home. This is what you get when you go for a TUI package holiday given the ATOL protection.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,196
Location
0036
And, we haven't felt it necessary to compel passengers to possess full travel insurance for their journey,
It should be noted that UK and other non-EU citizens travelling on Eurostar are compelled under EU law to possess travel insurance as a condition of entry, although this is one of those things that only gets enforced if one fails the attitude test with a border guard.
 

williamn

Member
Joined
22 May 2008
Messages
1,133
Sometimes things go wrong and there's not a lot you can do about it. In the same way that the airlines can't do much to mitigate air traffic control going down or going on strike I think Eurostar had very limited options here. I'm sure if it had been a situation ongoing for some time then some contingency would have been put in place but that can't be magicked up in 24 hours. Similarly, given this would have presumably involved possibly tens of thousands of passengers then all their customer service staff - on the ground, on email, on the phone would have been totally overwhelmed. No company in the world is able to employ enough customer service staff 'just in case' of a once in a decade situation like this.
 

Benjwri

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2022
Messages
1,895
Location
Bath
It should be noted that UK and other non-EU citizens travelling on Eurostar are compelled under EU law to possess travel insurance as a condition of entry, although this is one of those things that only gets enforced if one fails the attitude test with a border guard.
Are you able to provide reference for this? I was under the impression this was just a pre Brexit rumour, and travel insurance was a recommendation but not a requirement. Certainly the guidance I have seen for the upcoming ETIAS scheme specifically states travel insurance is a recommendation and not a requirement for countries ETIAS is valid from.

Regardless when it was rumoured travel insurance would be required it was only at the level of a EHIC/GHIC, which would provide not protection here.
 
Joined
22 Jun 2023
Messages
852
Location
Croydon
Most commuters on are on their Christmas break and I don't think it's unreasonable to prioritise people who have booked holidays etc over people who are just going to get home a bit later than they otherwise would have done.
I think London commuters are much more likely to be the people manning time critical infrastructure and service jobs, while someone in an email job having a few days extra holiday isn't the end of the world. Mabye Eurostar should charter a *few* planes for people in "key worker" jobs
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,940
Has it been confirmed anywhere yet, exactly which water pipe caused the problem? Is it also a potential cause of failure in the Channel Tunnel(s) itself?
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,196
Location
0036
Are you able to provide reference for this? I was under the impression this was just a pre Brexit rumour, and travel insurance was a recommendation but not a requirement. Certainly the guidance I have seen for the upcoming ETIAS scheme specifically states travel insurance is a recommendation and not a requirement for countries ETIAS is valid from.

Regardless when it was rumoured travel insurance would be required it was only at the level of a EHIC/GHIC, which would provide not protection here.
It's an explicit requirement for Schengen visa applicants to have medical insurance covering at least €30,000 expenses and repatriation to home country; I concede it's not made an explicit requirement for non-visa nationals but it is considered implicit under the requirement in to possess adequate financial resources for one's stay set out in EU regulation 2016/399.

A GHIC does not cover medical repatriation so doesn't suffice.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
We force people to buy insurance in certain circumstances because of the very real risk they will cause expensive negative externalities for the rest of us to deal with if they don't. Car insurance is one such striking example. No one is exempt from having car insurance because there's essentially no cap on how much damage you could theoretically cause other people as a result of your driving. All the very expensive lawyers involved in the Great Heck train crash car insurance claims summing tens of millions of pounds can attest to that. Likewise we force people to buy health insurance because we also won't refuse to treat patients in emergencies. In the UK we do that through non-hypotheticated central government taxation but the basic principle is the same in all other developed countries, including the United States.

Where does a train being cancelled fall into this? It really is on the low end of the spectrum, comparatively. The sums would only get really big if cancellations were going on for a long time - e.g. if the Channel Tunnel had an incident which forced it to be closed for months or years. Even then, the total payout would be limited to the people who had already bought tickets. Anyone who would take a refund for a cancelled future journey means the liability gets capped at that because they'd never need to worry about alternate travel or accommodation options for them any more. So in practice it's just the people already on the trains and already waiting to travel who really cause any meaningful insurance payouts.

With the risk of payout being so small it isn't at all surprising that Eurostar has just chosen to self-insure where it has. And, we haven't felt it necessary to compel passengers to possess full travel insurance for their journey, so Eurostar has ended up reducing fares by reducing the level of insurance they provide. This is all within a dynamic and competitive market for cross-Channel travel. Eurostar is competing against airlines (if it increased fares, then London-Paris flights would reappear) and other ground transport like coaches and walk-on ferries plus rail travel.
There are as few kernels in this worth addressing:

People are forced to buy car insurance so there is a way of them paying out for what is their liability. Eurostar is the same, except that where they are liable through non-performance, they tell the traveller to claim on THEIR insurance, or 'encourage' them to refund their ticket so no performance of the contract is expected / required on their part. That is not how insurance is meant to work.

It is Eurostar's job to have their operation backed by contracts e.g. with SNCF, NR or insurance e.g. bad weather. In this case Network Rail aka the UK taxpayer will be lavishly compensating Eurostar for the non-avilability of HS1, very little of which will be passed on to the travellers actually affected. And if they did fail, unlike an airline, Eurostar is already backed by at least one foreign government and is actually far better positioned to handle these liabilities than many airlines.

There is no need for a semantic debate about the purpose of insurance in a market economy. A perfectly good consumer protection framework is already in place, covering both proper monetary compensation for delays that are not deemed extraordinary, and support e.g. hotel accommodation even where EU261 does not apply. This framework just needs to apply to Eurostar in exactly the same way it does for any airline flying from London to Amsterdam.
 
Joined
22 Jun 2023
Messages
852
Location
Croydon
It's an explicit requirement for Schengen visa applicants to have medical insurance covering at least €30,000 expenses and repatriation to home country; I concede it's not made an explicit requirement for non-visa nationals but it is considered implicit under the requirement in to possess adequate financial resources for one's stay set out in EU regulation 2016/399.

A GHIC does not cover medical repatriation so doesn't suffice.
Has the "implicit" law ever actually resulted in a refusal or prosecution? A refusal would be costly both for Eurostar and the French government so they'd publicize this if it's an actual policy
 

Richardr

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2009
Messages
409
The best way to deal with such issues for Eurostar travel would have been if we'd remained in the EU and actually sought to join the Schengen Area. Had this been the case, trains could have run and terminated anywhere with a platform for onward travel on other services, buses, coaches or whatever we liked.
Of course a country doesn't have to be in the EU to be in the Schengen Area - Switzerland being an example.
Most commuters on are on their Christmas break and I don't think it's unreasonable to prioritise people who have booked holidays etc over people who are just going to get home a bit later than they otherwise would have done.

They are on their Christmas Break this week, but there is no reason for problems to happen between Christmas and the New Year rather than any other week in the year.

All possible solutions will need passport control and customs at some point - how quickly can this be set up and manned somewhere else for the train loads that travel on the Eurostar? For segregation purposes it would need to happen before any other routes are used.
 

Benjwri

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2022
Messages
1,895
Location
Bath
It's an explicit requirement for Schengen visa applicants to have medical insurance covering at least €30,000 expenses and repatriation to home country; I concede it's not made an explicit requirement for non-visa nationals but it is considered implicit under the requirement in to possess adequate financial resources for one's stay set out in EU regulation 2016/399.

A GHIC does not cover medical repatriation so doesn't suffice.
I would echo the above question of has anyone ever been denied entry specifically because of a lack of insurance? If so Eurostar should make it clear, as they give advice explicitly to the contrary, stating it is optional but recommended.

Do I need travel or European Health Insurance (EHIC) to travel on Eurostar?​



We recommend taking out a travel insurance policy before you speed off to the Continent. If you live in the UK, you can buy insurance along with your tickets.

That way you’ll be covered in case of medical emergencies, delayed or missed trains, cancellations, lost luggage and more.

Now that the UK has left the EU, UK citizens will no longer be entitled to apply for a new European Health Insurance Cards (EHIC). If you have an existing EHIC card, your card will continue to be valid until its expiry date. However, past the expiry date, you will need to apply for the alternative Global Health Insurance Card (GHIC) which launched in January 2021 and provides access to publicly available medical treatment in the EU. However, it is always recommended that you have travel insurance with healthcare cover before you travel abroad.

Regardless of if you need it, it is not reasonable to expect people to have it when every single place I can find online has stated it is recommended but optional, including Eurostar itself. They should therefore not assume everyone has it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top