17 Year old with a child's ticket: Ridiculous fine?

[Colin.robertso]

My son travelled on a transport for wales train between Runcorn East and Warrington Bank Quay and on leaving the station was challenged for his ticket which he showed (it was a child ticket) there was and army of Avanti west coast staff at the exit.
He had his detail took and carried on to work
We (his parents) then received a letter from Transport investigations ltd telling us they were acting for Avanti West Coast asking us to reply and give details of what happened. I did this explaining the above that he had not travelled on a Avanti train and that he had a child ticket which was a mistake and I was happy to discuss at an appropriate time.

Today I received a letter from the same body claiming that they are will to settle the matter with us paying the missing fare of £152 and cost of £150? the fare is £3.90 and he paid £1.95 so a £1.95 shortfall?

again this has nothing to do with Avanti or their agency can I reject this?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Colin.robertso. Welcome to the forum. Could you upload a copy of the letter(s) received with any name and address (and case reference numbers - if any) suitably obscured?

 

[methecooldude]

Warrington Bank Quay is managed by Avanti and are entitled to, via Transport Investigations Ltd, attempt to settle the matter with you.

 

[Haywain]

he had not travelled on a Avanti train

This is not relevant - train companies act collectively in dealing with fare evasion, and TfW will have no objection to Avanti handling the matter.

Today I received a letter from the same body claiming that they are will to settle the matter with us paying the missing fare of £152 and cost of £150? the fare is £3.90 and he paid £1.95 so a £1.95 shortfall?

What he paid is largely irrelevant, as he did not have a valid ticket. Are you saying that TIL are asking for £302.00? If that is the case there are two possibilities; first is that they have found evidence that this has been repeated behaviour, the second is that an error has been made over what the journey was.

again this has nothing to do with Avanti or their agency can I reject this?

If you do it will most likely end up in court, so it's best not to do that.

 

[Watershed]

Avanti are entitled to act on behalf of another operator, so there is no mileage in trying to ignore them or claim they can't do anything. They can and will just take your son to Court as the alternative to agreeing to the out of court settlement.

Is it perhaps the case that there's been a misunderstanding on either your or their part, with £150 being their (essentially made-up) "admin" fee and £2 being the unpaid fare?

 

[richw]

I imagine this is £150 cost plus £2 short fee, £152 being the total payable but explaining £150 of this is the admin cost. Not £152 plus £150.
£150 is normally the costs, and £2 would tally being the short paid fare

Today I received a letter from the same body claiming that they are will to settle the matter with us paying the missing fare of £152 and cost of £150? the fare is £3.90 and he paid £1.95 so a £1.95 shortfall?

 

[Colin.robertso]

Thanks for your replies here is the letter attached, surely I don't have to pay there costs? For one letter £150

 

[Colin.robertso]

I imagine this is £150 cost plus £2 short fee, £152 being the total payable but explaining £150 of this is the admin cost. Not £152 plus £150.
£150 is normally the costs, and £2 would tally being the short paid fare

No they have said the fare is £152 and the costs are £150

Your son is 17 and working, but made a 'mistake' by buying a 'child' ticket.

Hmmmmm.

At college and has a part time job, no not very clever he knew what he was doing and I have no problem with him getting caught and fined but this seems extremely excessive

 

[methecooldude]

Thanks for your replies here is the letter attached, surely I don't have to pay there costs? For one letter £150

No they have said the fare is £152 and the costs are £150

In which case, they have probably looked at the history of your son's purchases and found many instances of child tickets over the age of 15. This would have taken time, equipment, knowledge, skill etc. So yes, these do need to be paid for.

Or, your son can be found guilty in court... up to you I guess

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Or, of course, it's possible that whomever has prepared the letter has keyed the wrong amount in.

Seems unlikely the fare or fares avoided would ever result in some total ending in nineteen pence.

By the way, what's Avanti's revenue protection policy as regards prosecuting 17 years olds?

 

[Colin.robertso]

In which case, they have probably looked at the history of your son's purchases and found many instances of child tickets over the age of 15. This would have taken time, equipment, knowledge, skill etc. So yes, these do need to be paid for.

Or, your son can be found guilty in court... up to you I guess

This would equate to around 50 journeys? This is not correct or even close as he gets a lift most days he works, how would they even know what tickets he has bought?

 

[Ediswan]

Thanks for your replies here is the letter attached, surely I don't have to pay there costs? For one letter £150

I suggest you redact the name and re-upload.

A copy of the first letter might explain where the £152 fare comes from.

 

[Bertie the bus]

This would equate to around 50 journeys? This is not correct or even close as he gets a lift most days he works, how would they even know what tickets he has bought?

£3.90 * 39 = £152.10. Does your son purchase online tickets and are there 39 instances of purchasing a child ticket on his account? If that figure looks about right I would ignore the 9p overcharge and cough up. As stated above the alternative is court.

 

[Bungle158]

It may seem unfair, but operators can and do add adminstration costs. You are of course, under no obligation to accept this settlement offer.

The alternative is to risk court proceedings. Travelling with an incorrect ticket is a potential route to a criminal conviction, although even during my time on the railway some years ago, companies were often disinclined to prosecute minors

 

[gray1404]

There is an error here. No rail fare or combination of would ever amount to £xxx.19.

The fact they are writing to you as a Parent is interesting. Download Avanti's revenue protection policy and see if they have a policy of not taking under 18s to court. If so, it is disgusting TIL are threatening it in their letter.

I would be tempted to respond to TLF, as the parent, offering them either just the fare of £3.90 in settlement or £3.90 plus the £150 towards costs.

Your son should also purchase a Railcard so he can continue to pay reduced fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is an error here. No rail fare or combination of would ever amount to £xxx.19.

The fact they are writing to you as a Parent is interesting. Download Avanti's revenue protection policy and see if they have a policy of not taking under 18s to court. If so, it is disgusting TIL are threatening it in their letter.

I would be tempted to respond to TLF, as the parent, offering them either just the fare of £3.90 in settlement or £3.90 plus the £150 towards costs.

Your son should also purchase a Railcard so he can continue to pay reduced fares.

Avanti do not have anything in their revenue protection policy that suggest that under 18s won’t be prosecuted.

I recommend sending a cheque for £3.90 plus their costs.

 

[Colin.robertso]

Thank you for all of your replies, probably not the answers I was hoping for but at least I have a better idea of the process now

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you do send a cheque, make sure you send it recorded delivery and keep a record of the cheque and the covering letter.

You may wish to separately email/write to them to question how they have arrived at the figure. It does not match any figure in the ticketing system, although it should be noted it is very close to the anytime single fare from Glasgow to Warrington- and I also note that, typically, the train from Glasgow arrives at Warrington as the same time as the train from Chester/North Wales.

Have they alleged your son short fared?

I would advise you not to trust Transport Investigations nor their long-standing 'senior prosecution caseworker' in any dealings you have with them. They are a completely untrustworthy organisation.

 

[SteveM70]

Thank you for all of your replies, probably not the answers I was hoping for but at least I have a better idea of the process now

It might be a good idea to ask one of the mods on here to change your user name, as I guess it probably reveals half your son’s name too

 

[furlong]

It clearly says "fare avoided" not "fares". Reply asking for a breakdown of the sums they are asking for, pointing out the discrepancy compared against the actual fare? Do not assume they took into account what you said in your first letter - we find on here that they usually ignore most of what's said in the first letter - so repeat everything relevant. In any event offer to pay the 3.90 e.g. by enclosing a cheque. (I'd agree that only 1.95 is due, but the amount is so small that that argument is not worth having.)

Also, on the day this happened, was your son within 6 months of his 18th birthday? If not, it would be unusual to prosecute over something so minor - normally they need to wait (for a maximum of 6 months) until he reaches 18 so they can use the simpler system of the adult courts.

(At one level it might be tempting to let them prosecute and hope the wrong fare indicates they've got the facts wrong so he can honestly plead not guilty.)

 

[Haywain]

Thank you for all of your replies, probably not the answers I was hoping for but at least I have a better idea of the process now

I think it would be reasonable to query the amount that has been asked for, as it does suggest an error unless your son has been buying child tickets on a regular basis. I advise against sending a cheque for £3.90, as suggested above, as that would be seen as taking the p***. It is quite reasonable for a "contribution to their costs" to have been requested and £150 is not much different to what we see on other threads. I would therefore suggest making a payment of £152.19.

Whilst there is a possibility that the case would not be prosecuted, you will have to weigh up whether it is worth taking that risk. Settling the matter now closes it and gives peace of mind.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thanks for your replies here is the letter attached, surely I don't have to pay there costs? For one letter £150

Iit’s an offer to keep it out of court. So you don’t have to accept it, but the alternative may be even less attractive, as others have said.

Moderator note: some posts have been split to:

Pricing of out of court settlements and costs involved in persuing fare evasion cases

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[CarrotPie]

There is an error here. No rail fare or combination of would ever amount to £xxx.19.

Perhaps ninety has been confused with nineteen?

 

[Chessman89]

Thanks for your replies here is the letter attached, surely I don't have to pay there costs? For one letter £150

I might be a bit late on this one but I have previous experience with TIL and have read a lot of forum posts about them. In my experience, (please don't take this as law, just guidance) TIL use standardised letters to get people to pay up. The letters are often written in a threatening way to cause stress and anxiety. This is why they do not respond to points of mitigation. I received exactly the same letter twice saying that they didn't accept my mitigation and would proceed to court unless I could offer further mitigation. It was only when I logged complaints with TFW and TIL and demanded that they responded to my mitigation citing their reason for not accepting each point individually that they actually wrote a letter themselves. The story ends with them putting in the wrong fare for the wrong journey on that letter and they dropped the case.

For the record, they never told me that they had dropped the case. It took someone at TFW customer services to find that out for me as TIL completely lost interest once they realised that they weren't getting any money off me.

Word of warning, this took three months and was extremely stressful.