D6130
Established Member
There only seemed to be one set left at Gas Wood when I passed through on Saturday....so presumably there are none there now.
68025 + TP025Q33 Gascoigne Wood Sidings to Longsight TMD has run today.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K08095/2024-01-15/detailed
68025 + TP02
The decision to retire the Class 37 locomotives is driven by the need to modernise their fleet, embracing newer technologies, and meeting the environmental and operational challenges of the future. This move aligns with DRS’s commitment to providing efficient and sustainable rail services.
The TPE Class 68s are still on lease to TPE until later this year so are not available to DRS yet.
Also according to the latest (February 2024) Modern Railways Chiltern are very interested in taking the Class 68s and Mark 5 sets on to replace their existing Mark 3 sets.
They already have a tender out for replacement stock, which seems to fit the Mark 5's. The tender mentions availability for training in 2024 and entry into service in 2025, so there is no time for any new builds.
The TPE 68s are leased from Beacon by DRS and then sub-leased from DRS to TPE. So the arrangement is Beacon > DRS > TPE.The TPE Class 68s are still on lease to TPE until later this year so are not available to DRS yet. Also according to the latest (February 2024) Modern Railways Chiltern are very interested in taking the Class 68s and Mark 5 sets on to replace their existing Mark 3 sets.
They already have a tender out for replacement stock, which seems to fit the Mark 5's. The tender mentions availability for training in 2024 and entry into service in 2025, so there is no time for any new builds.
Sub-sub-leased, presumably. Beacon > DRS > TPE > DRS.A number are already sub-leased to DRS freight.
And that’s even with the ‘small reduction in North Route services’, that in reality reduced from 4 to 3 per hour the number of services over the Pennines (with the 4 already being a reduction from the 5 pre-pandemic).There are still far too many three carriage 185's running about on TPE's network.
When management and Government say that TPE have enough stock to run the service without mk5's, they are lying, pure and simple
And that’s even with the ‘small reduction in North Route services’, that in reality reduced from 4 to 3 per hour the number of services over the Pennines (with the 4 already being a reduction from the 5 pre-pandemic).
Are there far to many running with insufficient capacity, or far too many running?There are still far too many three carriage 185's running about on TPE's network.
The Mark 5s were a distraction, and not making it any easier to run the serviceWhen management and Government say that TPE have enough stock to run the service without mk5's, they are lying, pure and simple
Funnily enough, I travelled on the 10:20 from York to Manchester Airport on Tuesday, which was 3 vice 6, as advised by Journey Check and by the guard. From Leeds to Manchester, it was full and standing.There are still far too many three carriage 185's running about on TPE's network.
When management and Government say that TPE have enough stock to run the service without mk5's, they are lying, pure and simple
Are there far to many running with insufficient capacity, or far too many running?
The Mark 5s were a distraction, and not making it any easier to run the service
Funnily enough, I travelled on the 10:20 from York to Manchester Airport on Tuesday, which was 3 vice 6, as advised by Journey Check and by the guard. From Leeds to Manchester, it was full and standing.
And that’s even with the ‘small reduction in North Route services’, that in reality reduced from 4 to 3 per hour the number of services over the Pennines (with the 4 already being a reduction from the 5 pre-pandemic).
More jam tomorrow.They’ll be more capacity from December when 802’s start appearing on the Hull route releasing further 185’s but until then things will likely stay as they are.
Luckily the 185 refurbishment has been pushed back slightly is scheduled to take place in 2025 now
It’s beyond ridiculous.Absolutely, I was on a 3 car 185 earlier today which was rammed from Huddersfield, and passengers were left behind at Dewsbury. Didn't help a large number of seats were reserved and luggage was blocking doorways and part of the aisle. The Nova 3s may not have provided much capacity given they spent the majority of their time out of service, but TPE need additional capacity as 3 trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds isn't enough.
And come spring onwards 6 cars will be needed on Scarborough lines for most of the day else complaints will go through the roof againThey’ll be more capacity from December when 802’s start appearing on the Hull route releasing further 185’s but until then things will likely stay as they are.
Luckily the 185 refurbishment has been pushed back slightly is scheduled to take place in 2025 now
As it is, they are in quite good condition since their previous refurb anyway.They’ll be more capacity from December when 802’s start appearing on the Hull route releasing further 185’s but until then things will likely stay as they are.
Luckily the 185 refurbishment has been pushed back slightly is scheduled to take place in 2025 now
More jam tomorrow.
I thought that the ‘tweaked’ timetable introduced in December 2023 was so that TPE could reduce their training backlog.
The story presented by TPE was that this was to ensure drivers (and conductors) could learn the diversionary routes necessary to provide a service during TRU blockades.
How does introducing the need to traction train Hull drivers (and conductors) on Class 802 sets help with reducing the training backlog?
You claim “the training backlog is largely on its way to being solved,” (and this is within two months of the reduced timetable being introduced), so can you explain why the reduced timetable is going to be in place for a further 10 months?The training backlog is largely on its way to being solved, it’s another reason why there was minimal cancellations during the recent ASLEF rest day ban. All crews now sign a greater number of routes and diversions required by their respective links than compared to 2023.
Hull is the north routes least training intensive depot currently signing only two routes and one diversion. Liverpool and York already sign the route and traction between Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds. Guards only require a 3 day conversion course.
It is largely on its way to being solved.You claim “the training backlog is largely on its way to being solved,” (and this is within two months of the reduced timetable being introduced), so can you explain why the reduced timetable is going to be in place for a further 10 months?
That’s incorrect, even during the action last years there was numerous drivers sat in mess rooms who could work trains but didn’t sign diversions or had their trains cancelled because services couldn’t be left at stations such as Leeds where the relieving crew didn’t have route knowledge.I would suggest to you that the reduction in the number of timetabled services on the North Route would account for much of the improvement in the proportion of services run during the ASLEF action.
It’s nothing to do with the reduced timetable, it’s purely down to utilising the fleet of trains more effectively than current.In sum, the Class 802 traction and route learning for Hull drivers wasn’t one of the reasons given to Transport for the North for the reduced timetable for December 2023, so yet more smoke and mirrors from TPE.
You still haven’t answered the question as to how this reduces the training backlog, only waved your arms a bit and erroneously claimed that the training backlog is largely resolved (the situation has improved, but it most certainly is not largely resolved).
Thank you for the time you have taken to put that answer together, it’s most appreciated and very interesting.It is largely on its way to being solved.
Whilst I don’t have the recent figures to hand, traincrew route and diversion knowledge has gone from 30% of drivers signing all routes and diversions in their link to 70% by December 23. That figure is much higher now
To my own knowledge, the current reduced timetable is currently delivering the most reliable service in recent years, allows for training to continue to take place on the diversions by utilising stock from peak service trains in the off-peak hours and is fairly matching the demands for most services (events such as football games excepted). I have to admit as traincrew I’m actually really surprised by how well things have improved.
If you want a more in-depth answer however, you’ll be better grilling the planning teams and directorate
That’s incorrect, even during the action last years there was numerous drivers sat in mess rooms who could work trains but didn’t sign diversions or had their trains cancelled because services couldn’t be left at stations such as Leeds where the relieving crew didn’t have route knowledge.
It’s nothing to do with the reduced timetable, it’s purely down to utilising the fleet of trains more effectively than current.
The number of 802s available for service vs the number actually used in service isn’t economically sensible. The same reason 802’s are now utilised on selected Scarborough services, it’s simply trying to utilise the current fleet more effectively than current whilst also providing a capacity benefit.
I haven’t said the introduction of 802s reduced/s the training backlog at any point.
If you find it erroneous that the current training backlog is largely resolved, then clearly you’re more knowledgeable than me and the information that’s being passed down from the directorate to stakeholders
From the above conversation it seems the training backlog is ‘largely’ resolved, but since capacity and demand are now so well matched there’s not really much reason to change the current timetable…And come spring onwards 6 cars will be needed on Scarborough lines for most of the day else complaints will go through the roof again
It’s all well and good parroting the corporate line about matching capacity to demand during a quiet month like January, but I wonder if that match will really be quite as good if things pick up later in the year.
Are you seriously arguing that the December 2023 timetable is perfectly adequate and should just roll forward in perpetuity?
Having been at the recent Stakeholder Conference (and to previous years) a lot of information was given. Yes, we've heard all the platitudes before. The pain of users was certainly conveyed and and it was appreciated.It is largely on its way to being solved.
Whilst I don’t have the recent figures to hand, traincrew route and diversion knowledge has gone from 30% of drivers signing all routes and diversions in their link to 70% by December 23. That figure is much higher now
To my own knowledge, the current reduced timetable is currently delivering the most reliable service in recent years, allows for training to continue to take place on the diversions by utilising stock from peak service trains in the off-peak hours and is fairly matching the demands for most services (events such as football games excepted). I have to admit as traincrew I’m actually really surprised by how well things have improved.
If you want a more in-depth answer however, you’ll be better grilling the planning teams and directorate
That’s incorrect, even during the action last years there was numerous drivers sat in mess rooms who could work trains but didn’t sign diversions or had their trains cancelled because services couldn’t be left at stations such as Leeds where the relieving crew didn’t have route knowledge.
It’s nothing to do with the reduced timetable, it’s purely down to utilising the fleet of trains more effectively than current.
The number of 802s available for service vs the number actually used in service isn’t economically sensible. The same reason 802’s are now utilised on selected Scarborough services, it’s simply trying to utilise the current fleet more effectively than current whilst also providing a capacity benefit.
I haven’t said the introduction of 802s reduced/s the training backlog at any point.
If you find it erroneous that the current training backlog is largely resolved, then clearly you’re more knowledgeable than me and the information that’s being passed down from the directorate to stakeholders
Again, something really doesn’t add up here. TPE claimed that the reductions in the December 2023 timetable were so that they could reduce their training backlog and now they claim that after two months that’s ’largely resolved.’Although the current training backlog is largely resolved there are still gaps, especially to cover diversionary routes at weekends.
Yes indeed and this was the primary reason given for the reduction in the timetable from December 2023.Since the last time table change the amount of road learning trains going all over the Calder Valley has definitely increased. There's two following each other around 1000 from Vic every day and they are out up and down all day untill joining back up and forming a peak train back towards Leeds.
There's a third one that goes empty and road learns Castleford too.