Grand Union's proposed Stirling – Euston service now authorised by ORR

[YorkRailFan]

Just says likely to be a 221 or 222.

Weren't their rumors of Grand Union apparently having IC 225s? Or at least shortened ones?

 

[alholmes]

The ORR decision letter covers the point about it being diesel traction. Basically, they’re ok with it because it allows for earlier introduction of the service, and it avoids any concerns around electricity power supply constraints on the route (although it doesn’t detail what these constraints are).

Heres the link to the decision letter (13 pages): https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...and-union-london-stirling-decision-letter.pdf

 

[DanNCL]

Something to look at at a later date. Just good that it’s got off the ground for now.

That’s very true.

The electric alternative would be some 110mph 350/2s or 379s.

Which for a 110mph route would work.
Obviously there’s a whole host of other issues with them that’d make them unsuitable but from a pathing perspective they’d work.

If the ORR had approved this earlier then Grand Union’s original choice of 91 hauled Mark 4 sets would still have been available.

The ORR decision letter covers the point about it being diesel traction. Basically, they’re ok with it because it allows for earlier introduction of the service, and it avoids any concerns around electricity power supply constraints on the route (although it doesn’t detail what these constraints are).

Presumably related to the ever dwindling amount of electric hauled freight on the WCML.

 

[dk1]

Weren't their rumors of Grand Union apparently having IC 225s? Or at least shortened ones?

I thought that was discounted.

 

[tiptoptaff]

88s+MK5s?

 

[The Planner]

The ORR decision letter covers the point about it being diesel traction. Basically, they’re ok with it because it allows for earlier introduction of the service, and it avoids any concerns around electricity power supply constraints on the route (although it doesn’t detail what these constraints are).

Heres the link to the decision letter (13 pages): https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...and-union-london-stirling-decision-letter.pdf

Around Euston and Preston.

The cynical could suggest that its a put up or shut up. Here are your rights, go and introduce the service.

 

[DanNCL]

Weren't their rumors of Grand Union apparently having IC 225s? Or at least shortened ones?

I thought that was discounted.

The sets that would have been used by Grand Union were scrapped.

 

[Zontar]

Which depot is more likely, Preston or Crewe?

 

[Towers]

‘Spare’ 22x stock being allowed to go to someone playing trains rather than XC would certainly demonstrate how the powers that be have completely lost touch with the railway’s needs.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just for information whilst the new service has been formally approved for the time being things are so vague that by its very nature the majority of the discussion is going to be speculative hence why we're keeping the discussion in this section for now. If and when more concrete plans are announced then a new thread may be suitable in a relevant section of the Forum. Hopefully that makes sense

 

[Wolfie]

‘Spare’ 22x stock being allowed to go to someone playing trains rather than XC would certainly demonstrate how the powers that be have completely lost touch with the railway’s needs.

You rather assume an infinite budget....

 

[hexagon789]

‘Spare’ 22x stock being allowed to go to someone playing trains rather than XC would certainly demonstrate how the powers that be have completely lost touch with the railway’s needs.

They haven't got any leasing agreement for any rolling stock as yet, the application just uses 22x for illustrative purposes I would presume.

No one has signed a lease for the 222s after EMR have finished with them.

There are at least 3 TOCs 'interested' in them, but the fees have been said to be quite over-expensive (that was why the Scottish Transport Secretary ruled them out previously). It is by no means a given GU will secure any regardless.

 

[357]

‘Spare’ 22x stock being allowed to go to someone playing trains rather than XC would certainly demonstrate how the powers that be have completely lost touch with the railway’s needs.

Hardly playing trains if they have the hard cash to lease them.

Playing trains is people who drive miniature railways and call themselves train drivers, or those who think that XC should get Voyagers for free just because they have a fleet of them already, despite "the powers that be" refusing to pay for them.

 

[John R]

Surely the 221s will be preferred because of their ability to tilt (and will be available sooner).

 

[dk1]

The sets that would have been used by Grand Union were scrapped.

No chance then

 

[Peter0124]

Where will the stock be stabled? Will they use Polmadie or Craigentinny or just stable them overnight in Stirling station? Likewise will they use Wembley for services starting in London?

 

[Towers]

Hardly playing trains if they have the hard cash to lease them.

Playing trains is people who drive miniature railways and call themselves train drivers, or those who think that XC should get Voyagers for free just because they have a fleet of them already, despite "the powers that be" refusing to pay for them.

Anyone who thinks that yet another ‘chance our arm’, revenue abstracting Open Access effort is a better use of scant intercity rolling stock than an existing TOC running essential services with constant chronic overcrowding, probably needs to give their head a wee wobble. Those ‘powers that be’ micro manage who’s allowed to run what and have done for years, they need to make better decisions than this.

 

[The Planner]

Anyone who thinks that yet another ‘chance our arm’, revenue abstracting Open Access effort is a better use of scant intercity rolling stock than an existing TOC running essential services with constant chronic overcrowding, probably needs to give their head a wee wobble. Those ‘powers that be’ micro manage who’s allowed to run what and have done for years, they need to make better decisions than this.

Why? the powers at be aren't taking any risk with this, its a purely commercial venture by Grand Union, so if it goes pop it isn't their fault.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Anyone who thinks that yet another ‘chance our arm’, revenue abstracting Open Access operator is a better use of scant intercity rolling stock than an existing TOC running essential services with constant chronic overcrowding, probably needs to give their head a wee wobble. Those ‘powers that be’ micro manage who’s allowed to run what and have done for years, they need to make better decisions than this.

Well yes, but when the DfT won't pay to use them and GU will, this is more capacity on the WCML.

 

[Energy]

Anyone who thinks that yet another ‘chance our arm’, revenue abstracting Open Access effort is a better use of scant intercity rolling stock than an existing TOC running essential services with constant chronic overcrowding, probably needs to give their head a wee wobble.

Nothing stopping them leasing the voyagers before Grand Union do...

 

[357]

Anyone who thinks that yet another ‘chance our arm’, revenue abstracting Open Access effort is a better use of scant intercity rolling stock than an existing TOC running essential services with constant chronic overcrowding, probably needs to give their head a wee wobble. Those ‘powers that be’ micro manage who’s allowed to run what and have done for years, they need to make better decisions than this.

The powers that be are the people who created the system that Open Access operates under.

The powers that be have said they only want seven units (IIRC) for XC and won't pay for any more.

To clarify for you, this new venture are in no way taking trains away from any other TOC.

The debate that TOCs run essential services and Open Access do not is one I'd be happy to discuss in another thread.

 

[John R]

Nothing stopping them leasing the voyagers before Grand Union do...

Unless GU already has an option in place that if the ORR grants approval they can lease the required stock.

 

[Railperf]

Nothing stopping them leasing the voyagers before Grand Union do...

Great news about a new service. Shocking news that they would be allowed to use 221's running diesel under the wires when Avanti recently stated that they are getting rid of 221's to meet Government requirements to use electric where possible. Displaced 110mph stock must be the short term plan with 125mph electric sock ASAP - combined with a plan to introduce faster MU differentials north of Preston ASAP.

 

[Towers]

Why? the powers at be aren't taking any risk with this, its a purely commercial venture by Grand Union, so if it goes pop it isn't their fault.

Various reasons, but as far as rolling stock goes because existing intercity rolling stock is at a premium in the UK, particularly high speed diesel stock, and moreso since “the powers” compelled certain fleets to be dispensed with (XC HSTs). And because we have an appallingly under resourced and yet essential intercity TOC in XC who are routinely running trains the length of the country with three coaches of standard class accommodation. Failure to make apprpriate arrangements for surplus Voyagers to end up with XC is, bluntly, p*ss poor on the part of those overseeing the railway, that is patently obvious to anyone.

If Dave’s Trains LTD really want to start a service on whatever their latest obscure, ‘throw darts at a map’ route might be then whatever, but not using rolling stock so obviously desperately needed elsewhere.

The powers that be are the people who created the system that Open Access operates under.

The powers that be have said they only want seven units (IIRC) for XC and won't pay for any more.

To clarify for you, this new venture are in no way taking trains away from any other TOC.

The debate that TOCs run essential services and Open Access do not is one I'd be happy to discuss in another thread.

Indeed. Privatise or nationalise it; one or the other please!

 

[The Planner]

Great news about a new service. Shocking news that they would be allowed to use 221's running diesel under the wires when Avanti recently stated that they are getting rid of 221's to meet Government requirements to use electric where possible. Displaced 110mph stock must be the short term plan with 125mph electric sock ASAP - combined with a plan to introduce faster MU differentials north of Preston ASAP.

125mph electric stock wouldn't get them much, no one is looking at MU differentials north of Preston.

 

[Railperf]

Various reasons, but as far as rolling stock goes because existing intercity rolling stock is at a premium in the UK, particularly high speed diesel stock, and moreso since “the powers” compelled certain fleets to be dispensed with (XC HSTs). And because we have an appallingly under resourced and yet essential intercity TOC in XC who are routinely running trains the length of the country with three coaches of standard class accommodation. Failure to make apprpriate arrangements for surplus Voyagers to end up with XC is, bluntly, p*ss poor on the part of those overseeing the railway, that is patently obvious to anyone.

If Dave’s Trains LTD really want to start a service on whatever their latest obscure, ‘throw darts at a map’ route might be then whatever, but not using rolling stock so obviously desperately needed elsewhere.


Indeed. Privatise or nationalise it; one or the other please!

A new fleet of 125mph FLIRTs would be perfect! XC need a fleet of bi-modes too.

 

[Towers]

Great news about a new service. Shocking news that they would be allowed to use 221's running diesel under the wires when Avanti recently stated that they are getting rid of 221's to meet Government requirements to use electric where possible. Displaced 110mph stock must be the short term plan with 125mph electric sock ASAP - combined with a plan to introduce faster MU differentials north of Preston ASAP.

This is also a very decent point. You might expect a new outfit to be expected to meet appropriate ‘green’ credentials as a basic minimum standard, given the political climate.

 

[The Planner]

Various reasons, but as far as rolling stock goes because existing intercity rolling stock is at a premium in the UK, particularly high speed diesel stock, and moreso since “the powers” compelled certain fleets to be dispensed with (XC HSTs). And because we have an appallingly under resourced and yet essential intercity TOC in XC who are routinely running trains the length of the country with three coaches of standard class accommodation. Failure to make apprpriate arrangements for surplus Voyagers to end up with XC is, bluntly, p*ss poor on the part of those overseeing the railway, that is patently obvious to anyone.

If Dave’s Trains LTD really want to start a service on whatever their latest obscure, ‘throw darts at a map’ route might be then whatever, but not using rolling stock so obviously desperately needed elsewhere.

Money talks. Simple as. GU will be paying, Dft don't want to.

 

[Railperf]

125mph electric stock wouldn't get them much, no one is looking at MU differentials north of Preston.

Gareth Dennis wrote in Rail mag some years ago that the plan to introduce faster non tilt speeds was imminent to accommodate TPE 125mph stock. So that got canned? Why?

 

[Towers]

Money talks. Simple as. GU will be paying, Dft don't want to.

Off topic here but, again, better decisions needed from ‘the powers’!