Metrocar updates and withdrawals - Tyne & Wear Metro

[Paul_10]

Can confirm 42 as stored. There were two other UID metrocars stored, along with all the long time stored units. Full update to the op list coming tomorrow

Edit:
List in the op now updated, sorry it's taken me so long.

Changes are two additional units known to be stored (37 and 42), changes to storage locations and return to service of previously under attention units.

Amazingly we're actually up three units in the operational fleet compared to the last update, no doubt that won't last long!

Any update on 11, 25, 33, 51, 69, 72, 79 and 88 would be appreciated.

Apart from 79, going by what Phil is saying I would say all those are at least stored and not currently operational.

 

[steve_k_67]

Can confirm 42 as stored. There were two other UID metrocars stored, along with all the long time stored units. Full update to the op list coming tomorrow

Edit:
List in the op now updated, sorry it's taken me so long.

Changes are two additional units known to be stored (37 and 42), changes to storage locations and return to service of previously under attention units.

Amazingly we're actually up three units in the operational fleet compared to the last update, no doubt that won't last long!

Any update on 11, 25, 33, 51, 69, 72, 79 and 88 would be appreciated.

Hello,
I'm new to this forum so could you please advise how I can access the updated list?

Many thanks
Steve

 

[DanNCL]

Hello,
I'm new to this forum so could you please advise how I can access the updated list?

Many thanks
Steve

Very first post in this thread on page 1. When I update the list I edit that post so the first post always has the latest version of the list.

 

[steve_k_67]

Very first post in this thread on page 1. When I update the list I edit that post so the first post always has the latest version of the list.

Many thanks

 

[Tramfan]

Any update on 11, 25, 33, 51, 69, 72, 79 and 88 would be appreciated.

33 is back in service after at least 6 months out of service, 79 is also operational but don't believe any of the others listed there are

 

[phillogie@tisc]

There's another new Metro delivery in the early hours of Friday morning, reported to be 555001 & 020. A 19.20 from Dollands Moor operated last night, which formed the 01.14 from Wembley Reception to York Holgate Sidings this morning, arriving at 08.14. It is due to depart for Pelaw at 21.50 tomorrow night. There were similar paths last Thursday & Friday but they were cancelled.

 

[Maninblack]

I heard that new Stadler Metro trains, fleet numbers 555001 and 555020 arrived in the early hours of today 19/04/2024 acording to the Newcastle Chronicle.
They should be in use within the next ten years!!!!
While the old fleet get completely worn out!!!!!

 

[Trestrol]

Yes if you read the reply on the Tyne and Wear Metro Facebook page you'd read that they expect the first units in service by the end of the year. Daylight testing is imminent.

 

[DanNCL]

Daylight testing is imminent.

They’ve been saying that for the last 12 months. I’ll believe it when it happens.

 

[ModernRailways]

Daylight testing is imminent.

This was the case whilst I still worked there, over a few months ago.

 

[phillogie@tisc]

Having checked the Metros we've seen during April, the ones we've not noted and are not currently listed as stored are the same I e. 4011, 4025, 4033, 4051, 4069 & 4072.

We also didn't see 4029 & 4044 last month, but 4044 has been noted since then.

 

[steve_k_67]

I've been out a couple of times in the last few weeks and noted the following working:

Friday 26th April
4048/4079
4065/4036
4050/4086
4038/4090
4008/4045
4075/4085
4006/4023
4016/4089
4078/4057
4017/4056
4053/4044
4024/4028
4071/4035
4073/4039
4026/4018
4004/4019
4005/4032
4081/4030
4009/4074

Saturday 11th May
4003/4043
4089/4016
4081/4073
4026/4065
4018/4027
4085/4075
4057/4078
4056/4017
4079/4021
4012/4084
4049/4046

My last 2 are 4033 and 4072 and reading the above post seems I may struggle to get them but here's hoping. Hope these lists helps anyone needing info on what's been working recently.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Paul_10]

4033 has apparently returned to service so you may get that one but 4072 has not been noted it would seem until at least last year sometime.

Given the twitter feed constantly says gaps in service, I suspect it will be largely the same metrocars out on the system day in day out with spares very limited. Given the fact not a single new unit is anywhere near ready for service then it ain't good.

It will be interesting too see if any of the more recent out of use metrocars which have not been stored on the avoiding line(so 11, 25, 42?, 51, 69 and 72) will be seen in service again.

 

[Trestrol]

Given the twitter feed constantly says gaps in service, I suspect it will be largely the same metrocars out on the system day in day out with spares very limited. Given the fact not a single new unit is anywhere near ready for service then it ain't good.

One is VERY close.

 

[Paul_10]

One is VERY close.

Going from the comments, driver training has not even started yet and not has any daylight testing which is surely needs too happen before allowing passengers?

 

[Killingworth]

Going from the comments, driver training has not even started yet and not has any daylight testing which is surely needs too happen before allowing passengers?

One swallow does not a summer make!

 

[Maninblack]

Going from the comments, driver training has not even started yet and not has any daylight testing which is surely needs too happen before allowing passengers?

How long is it since that announcement in the house of commons about new rolling stock for the Metro? Its been quite a few years! And is this the Stadler way of doing things? I think the Metro is in a real mess the way it is being managed. There should be a public enquiery as I think several laws may have been broken due to the low standard of service.

 

[DanNCL]

One is VERY close.

Which is little use when there’s nobody to drive it so even once the unit itself is ready it still won’t be of any use for a while. And as the unit itself will be ready Nexus won’t be able to blame Stadler for the continued wait at that point.

How long is it since that announcement in the house of commons about new rolling stock for the Metro? Its been quite a few years! And is this the Stadler way of doing things? I think the Metro is in a real mess the way it is being managed. There should be a public enquiery as I think several laws may have been broken due to the low standard of service.

The House of Commons announcement was made by then Chancellor Philip Hammond in 2017. Lost count of how many Chancellors we’ve been through since then!
The order with Stadler was placed in 2020.

The problems are almost entirely down to Nexus. They’ve chronically mismanaged Metro for decades. Stadler are being used as scapegoats, much like DB were before that contract ended.

Any public inquiry needs to cover all of Nexus not just metro. Including matters such as the submission of incorrect reports to those responsible for scrutiny and establishing whether the incorrect reports were intentional or inadvertent.
The bus tenders also need investigating, reliability on many of the secured routes is nowhere near good enough and Nexus doesn’t regularly impose the contractural penalties they’re entitled to, and continue to reward failure by renewing the contracts to the same operators.
Then there’s safety matters. There’s known instances of possible non-compliance with the sub surface stations regulations that are rarely/never investigated, possibly other areas of non-compliance too.

The only solution is a complete clear out of senior management at Nexus. The current lot have demonstrated themselves to be either unwilling or unable to run things properly.

 

[Trestrol]

Going from the comments, driver training has not even started yet and not has any daylight testing which is surely needs too happen before allowing passengers?

That's not Stadlers problem is it that's down to Nexus. There are some drivers passed to drive them as they went to the factory to train on them. Just not enough to put any into regular service. Once the fault free test hours are completed then all the completed units will be modified. That's at least 25 units and there is nothing to stop them being delivered to the UK. They are in the way in Switzerland and they have bigger contracts to supply.

 

[hacman]

And is this the Stadler way of doing things?

Quite the contrary - Stadler have a very strong reputation for delivering quality products, and once our new fleet is in service we will see the benefit of this.

Having only been a recent entrant into the UK market, they are doing very well - the Greater Anglia units are now proving very reliable, performant and popular with passengers, and the Merseyrail units are now well on their way to the required levels of performance.

Both the Merseyrail and Nexus orders from Stadler have been beset by PTE politics and some external factors, for which we can't really hold Stadler accountable. By comparison, the snagging and introduction into service that the GA units saw the two fleets built and accepted in approximately 2 years.

 

[Maninblack]

Which is little use when there’s nobody to drive it so even once the unit itself is ready it still won’t be of any use for a while. And as the unit itself will be ready Nexus won’t be able to blame Stadler for the continued wait at that point.

The House of Commons announcement was made by then Chancellor Philip Hammond in 2017. Lost count of how many Chancellors we’ve been through since then!
The order with Stadler was placed in 2020.

The problems are almost entirely down to Nexus. They’ve chronically mismanaged Metro for decades. Stadler are being used as scapegoats, much like DB were before that contract ended.

Any public inquiry needs to cover all of Nexus not just metro. Including matters such as the submission of incorrect reports to those responsible for scrutiny and establishing whether the incorrect reports were intentional or inadvertent.
The bus tenders also need investigating, reliability on many of the secured routes is nowhere near good enough and Nexus doesn’t regularly impose the contractural penalties they’re entitled to, and continue to reward failure by renewing the contracts to the same operators.
Then there’s safety matters. There’s known instances of possible non-compliance with the sub surface stations regulations that are rarely/never investigated, possibly other areas of non-compliance too.

The only solution is a complete clear out of senior management at Nexus. The current lot have demonstrated themselves to be either unwilling or unable to run things properly.

You put your point across better than I did. I couldn't agree more with your final sentence! I've just lost patiance and I am lost for words these days!!

 

[DanNCL]

That's not Stadlers problem is it that's down to Nexus. There are some drivers passed to drive them as they went to the factory to train on them. Just not enough to put any into regular service. Once the fault free test hours are completed then all the completed units will be modified. That's at least 25 units and there is nothing to stop them being delivered to the UK. They are in the way in Switzerland and they have bigger contracts to supply.

I thought the drivers testing them had to be trained again before driving them in service?

Space in Switzerland is a massive issue. Stadler have no storage space of their own at St Margrethen and very little at Erlen so the units in Switzerland are mostly stored on SBB infrastructure. The yard at St Margrethen adjacent to the Stadler site is one location on SBB infrastructure you'll find stored units, not a massive yard and it can't be completely filled up with Stadler units either as it's also the loco changeover point for freight heading towards Bregenz and Lindau, switching from a Swiss loco to an Austrian or German loco depending on final destination. So probably not just the Swiss that want the units out of the way!

Once they're modified if there's not enough space for them all at Gosforth then I can imagine there'll be a push to get the units all through the Channel Tunnel and store them somewhere in the UK. But the space issue at Gosforth can be improved by stripping the long time stopped Metrocars of any reusable parts and getting rid of them.

Whilst they're at it they can get Beamish to find somewhere for 4020. Beamish have enough space for it, it's taking up space that could be better utilised at Gosforth and leaving it at Gosforth is only going to see the condition of the unit deteriorate further. Best option surely for 4020 would be for Beamish to take delivery of it and either store it inside their large stores building or, seeing as the line is out of use anyway, on the line for Rowley station in the short term, if they're worried about it looking out of place they can hide it out of sight behind the town. Beamish's planned exhibit for the Metrocar won't be ready before 2030 at the earliest, it can't stay at Gosforth until then so Beamish will have to store it at some point, they might as well get on with it sooner rather than later. (mind that said, Metrolink have still got a Heaton Park's T68 in storage at Trafford 10 years on from withdrawal!)

If Tyne & Wear Museums have their own large storage facility then it would be an idea to shift 4001 out of the way too. But at least the exhibit at Middle Engine Lane should be ready a lot sooner than the exhibit at Beamish, so less time to store it on Metro metals if it does have to wait for the exhibit to be ready for it.

Both the Merseyrail and Nexus orders from Stadler have been beset by PTE politics and some external factors, for which we can't really hold Stadler accountable. By comparison, the snagging and introduction into service that the GA units saw the two fleets built and accepted in approximately 2 years.

Politics has been a lot more of an issue for Merseyrail than it's been for Nexus. Certainly there haven't been any DOO disputes, Metro has never had guards so it's not an issue here.

 

[jkkne]

If the Tyne and Wear metro system was anywhere but Tyne and Wear, it would be a scandal and someone competent would have been enforced upon it to take over , even a vaguely competent civil servant taking up the role. I hold little hope our new massively unimportant mayor will make a difference

The idea these clowns might end up owning a franchised bus network…lord help us.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both the Merseyrail and Nexus orders from Stadler have been beset by PTE politics and some external factors, for which we can't really hold Stadler accountable. By comparison, the snagging and introduction into service that the GA units saw the two fleets built and accepted in approximately 2 years.

Pretty much all of the issues with the 777s (which are just not good units - unreliable and poor interiors) are down to the Merseytravel spec and not Stadler's basic design. I hope the Metro isn't suffering the same issue.

 

[DanNCL]

If the Tyne and Wear metro system was anywhere but Tyne and Wear, it would be a scandal and someone competent would have been enforced upon it to take over , even a vaguely competent civil servant taking up the role. I hold little hope our new massively unimportant mayor will make a difference

The idea these clowns might end up owning a franchised bus network…lord help us.

I strongly suspect that the newly elected Mayor Kim McGuinness, under the guidance of long time and woefully incompetent JTC chair Martin Gannon, will have full confidence in the current failing leadership at Nexus.

It would only have been seen as a scandal if it had been in London. Sheffield faces ending up in a similar situation with their trams in the not too distant future if they don’t get funding for replacements and, as with the North East, the Government regardless which party is in charge won’t care.

Pretty much all of the issues with the 777s (which are just not good units - unreliable and poor interiors) are down to the Merseytravel spec and not Stadler's basic design. I hope the Metro isn't suffering the same issue.

The similarities between the 555s and 777s are purely cosmetic. Different traction equipment, different interior, different bodyshell.

Merseytravel went for a completely custom interior design. The seats on the 777s are a cut down and somehow even more crap version of the original Fainsa ‘ironing boards’.
In contrast Nexus are using an adapted version of the Berlin interior design, it’s the same basic interior just with moquette on the seats instead of just plastic, handrails adjusted to UK specs and Nexus’s colour palette instead of BVG’s.

 

[bramling]

If the Tyne and Wear metro system was anywhere but Tyne and Wear, it would be a scandal

Hmm. Cast one’s eyes to London, where the Central Line is every bit as much of a fiasco as T&WM - trains have been giving issues for very many years, timetable progressively reduced, and now in the position where the service has been dire for many months, and with no prospect of improvement for some considerable time ahead.

and someone competent would have been enforced upon it to take over , even a vaguely competent civil servant taking up the role. I hold little hope our new massively unimportant mayor will make a difference

I do agree the situation on the Metro is a farce though.

It would only have been seen as a scandal if it had been in London.

As stated, see the Central Line. Trains been falling apart every bit as long as the Metrocars, if not longer, and unlike Newcastle they are having to make do with having their troublesome trains patched up rather than replaced. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Jubilee going the same way over the next few years as well, and of course the Bakerloo continues to make do with trains which are now 50 years in service (albeit still tolerably reliable).

 

[Trestrol]

I thought the drivers testing them had to be trained again before driving them in service?

Space in Switzerland is a massive issue. Stadler have no storage space of their own at St Margrethen and very little at Erlen so the units in Switzerland are mostly stored on SBB infrastructure. The yard at St Margrethen adjacent to the Stadler site is one location on SBB infrastructure you'll find stored units, not a massive yard and it can't be completely filled up with Stadler units either as it's also the loco changeover point for freight heading towards Bregenz and Lindau, switching from a Swiss loco to an Austrian or German loco depending on final destination. So probably not just the Swiss that want the units out of the way!

Once they're modified if there's not enough space for them all at Gosforth then I can imagine there'll be a push to get the units all through the Channel Tunnel and store them somewhere in the UK. But the space issue at Gosforth can be improved by stripping the long time stopped Metrocars of any reusable parts and getting rid of them.

Whilst they're at it they can get Beamish to find somewhere for 4020. Beamish have enough space for it, it's taking up space that could be better utilised at Gosforth and leaving it at Gosforth is only going to see the condition of the unit deteriorate further. Best option surely for 4020 would be for Beamish to take delivery of it and either store it inside their large stores building or, seeing as the line is out of use anyway, on the line for Rowley station in the short term, if they're worried about it looking out of place they can hide it out of sight behind the town. Beamish's planned exhibit for the Metrocar won't be ready before 2030 at the earliest, it can't stay at Gosforth until then so Beamish will have to store it at some point, they might as well get on with it sooner rather than later. (mind that said, Metrolink have still got a Heaton Park's T68 in storage at Trafford 10 years on from withdrawal!)

If Tyne & Wear Museums have their own large storage facility then it would be an idea to shift 4001 out of the way too. But at least the exhibit at Middle Engine Lane should be ready a lot sooner than the exhibit at Beamish, so less time to store it on Metro metals if it does have to wait for the exhibit to be ready for it.


Politics has been a lot more of an issue for Merseyrail than it's been for Nexus. Certainly there haven't been any DOO disputes, Metro has never had guards so it's not an issue here.

As I said in my post the drivers undertaking testing were trained in Switzerland. Why should they not be passed to drive them in service?
Once deliveries start these units will go to Howdon for storage. Any graffiti damage will be chargeable to Nexus as it's their site.
With regards to 4001 and 4020, both will need cosmetically putting back together before they can go anywhere.
One thing to remember about the Mersey rail units is they weren't built in Stadlers Swiss factory. They were built in their Spanish factory which has a dubious build reputation.

 

[Volvictof]

As I said in my post the drivers undertaking testing were trained in Switzerland. Why should they not be passed to drive them in service?
Once deliveries start these units will go to Howdon for storage. Any graffiti damage will be chargeable to Nexus as it's their site.
With regards to 4001 and 4020, both will need cosmetically putting back together before they can go anywhere.
One thing to remember about the Mersey rail units is they weren't built in Stadlers Swiss factory. They were built in their Spanish factory which has a dubious build reputation.

Dan is correct, they will need trained and passed.
driving a train for testing purposes is totally different to driving a train in passenger service and all the appropriate training and assessment will need to take place as per safety and standards.

 

[hacman]

Politics has been a lot more of an issue for Merseyrail than it's been for Nexus. Certainly there haven't been any DOO disputes, Metro has never had guards so it's not an issue here.

Exactly - something of a blessing. We did go through our own similar issues when Metro was under construction though - so we simply got that argument out of the way a few decades earlier.

Even on local rail services, I think there is a good argument for having a second member of staff aboard in any capacity; though cost is the biggest factor for such things. Having recently used the subway in New York extensively while visiting, it works very well having the conductor focusing on things such as providing passenger information and assistance, leaving the driver to do what they're actually there for.

Pretty much all of the issues with the 777s (which are just not good units - unreliable and poor interiors) are down to the Merseytravel spec and not Stadler's basic design. I hope the Metro isn't suffering the same issue.

The 777s are becoming very reliable as the snagging is completed; a good number of the issues were also related to the fact that these trains were ordered as DOO and have then been modified for two-man operation.

The interior on the 777s doesn't seem that bad - what are people's complaints with them other than the firmness of the seats?

 

[DanNCL]

As I said in my post the drivers undertaking testing were trained in Switzerland. Why should they not be passed to drive them in service?

That was my thought but I’d remembered seeing posts saying otherwise on these forums.

With regards to 4001 and 4020, both will need cosmetically putting back together before they can go anywhere.

4001 is understandable. 4020 is complete though isn’t it?

Exactly - something of a blessing. We did go through our own similar issues when Metro was under construction though - so we simply got that argument out of the way a few decades earlier.

Even on local rail services, I think there is a good argument for having a second member of staff aboard in any capacity; though cost is the biggest factor for such things. Having recently used the subway in New York extensively while visiting, it works very well having the conductor focusing on things such as providing passenger information and assistance, leaving the driver to do what they're actually there for.

I absolutely agree, especially on Metro where there’s a problem with anti social behaviour. But unfortunately I don’t see that happening here any time soon.

The 777s are becoming very reliable as the snagging is completed; a good number of the issues were also related to the fact that these trains were ordered as DOO and have then been modified for two-man operation.

The interior on the 777s doesn't seem that bad - what are people's complaints with them other than the firmness of the seats?

I was in Liverpool recently and one of my first observations on the 777s was that the cosmetic wall panels were rather shoddily attached on several units, you could see the insulation behind the panels from the seats. That won’t be an issue here with longitudinal seating.