Future of the 350/2s

[43096]

As I suggested in another thread, an idea to use up some of the surplus 450s could be for SWR to take over the Southampton to Brighton services from Southern when all of the 701s enter service (if that ever happens!). That would also reduce the shortage of rolling stock Southern are having.

Good call, that. It's a way of "reallocating" stock without creating non-standard fleets within an operator.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There will be plenty of 450s free - far more than eight - if SWR do not increase service levels back to what was planned pre-Covid.

Relying on if and buts is silly when we could conceivably see the growth leading back to at least partial service reinstatement.

 

[JonathanH]

Relying on if and buts is silly when we could conceivably see the growth leading back to at least partial service reinstatement.

Even partial service reinstatement wouldn't utilise the growth build element of the 701 fleet.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Even partial service reinstatement wouldn't utilise the growth build element of the 701 fleet.

What about growth outside of the 701 service area?

 

[JonathanH]

What about growth outside of the 701 service area?

Plenty of 450s for that if the 701s ever enter service, allowing them to be displaced off the Windsor side of SWR.

 

[AlastairFraser]

if the 701s ever enter service

If...

 

[ScottGallagher]

Reminds me of that Yes Minister episode where there was a hospital operating with no patients in and no medical staff , the straight faced answer by the manager was that it was a good thing as it prolonged the life of the expensive equipment and cut running costs!!

 

[Halifaxlad]

Ive recently been thinking about Shipley and if its really a barrier to anything longer than 6 car trains.

Which has got me thinking about Aire Valley and Wharf Valley services which really ought to remain 4 car minimum.

Back to the 350s I would use them for all triangle services and double them up during peaks.

Let the 331s replace the 323s in Greater Manchester!

 

[skyhigh]

Ive recently been thinking about Shipley and if its really a barrier to anything longer than 6 car trains.

Which has got me thinking about Aire Valley and Wharf Valley services which really ought to remain 4 car minimum.

Back to the 350s I would use them for all triangle services and double them up during peaks.

Let the 331s replace the 323s in Greater Manchester!

Shame they've just spent millions extending platforms to 6 car length not 8 then...

As far as I'm aware when the additional 323s arrive and platform work is complete everything on Triangle will be either 4 or 6 car.

 

[Neptune]

Ive recently been thinking about Shipley and if its really a barrier to anything longer than 6 car trains.

Which has got me thinking about Aire Valley and Wharf Valley services which really ought to remain 4 car minimum.

They will be booked for 4 car or 6 car so no worries there.

Back to the 350s I would use them for all triangle services and double them up during peaks.

There’s no room for 8 car trains. Shipley depot has been designed for 331/333’s and the recent track/signalling works for Leeds platforms 0-6 accounts for the planned max 6 car formations. Skipton Broughton Road sidings wouldn’t accommodate the additional units required either. Platforms on the network are being extended for max 6 car formations and you cannot stop an 8 car EMU at Shipley p2 as it would block the junction (Leeds - Skipton is the busiest route and doesn’t need 8 car trains in any case).

It would cost a hell of a lot of money and be prohibitively disruptive for a very long time to make the network suitable for 8 car 350’s especially after spending so much money on making the network suitable for 6 cars.

Then there’s the interim period which needs considering. Units will be needed for fitter/staff training alongside the current fleet. Where are these going to be stabled? That’s before we consider the cost of staff training.

Let the 331s replace the 323s in Greater Manchester!

Which services are you cutting out then? You are suggesting that 9 x 331’s should replace 34 x 323’s.

All this disruption and huge cost just so the more expensive to lease 350/2’s can find a new home?

 

[James Kevill]

Class 350/2 Desiro fleets could be used to operate the express services Manchester Airport to Blackpool North and Liverpool Lime Street and the Class 331 Civity fleet could be free up and move to Skipton and Neville Hill, Leeds depots to operate the Leeds to Doncaster, Airedale and Wharfedale lines and newly electrified Leeds to York in 2024 or 2025 and tackle the overcrowding services in Yorkshire areas. and Class 323s would be used for the North West services such as Blackpool North to Liverpool Lime Street. Class 350 Desiro fleets could be maintained at Siemens depot at Ardwick, Manchester alongside with TransPennine Express Class 185 Desiro fleets.

 

[JonathanH]

While they could be, everything posted before on this forum suggests that they won't be.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

While they could be, everything posted before on this forum suggests that they won't be.

Again, entering speculative threads simply to state that it's not what's happening is completely contradictive to the purpose of this sub-forum.

 

[skyhigh]

Again, entering speculative threads simply to state that it's not what's happening is completely contradictive to the purpose of this sub-forum.

Again, 'speculative' doesn't mean 'fantasy'.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Shame they've just spent millions extending platforms to 6 car length not 8 then...

Why do you make it sound like that's a bad thing ?

Anyway its only a carriage short!

As two 331s are about 143m long whilst two 350 (2)s are about 162m long!

Again, 'speculative' doesn't mean 'fantasy'.

How is extending platforms by another coach length 'fantasy' ?

 

[daodao]

These trains should be used to reduce diesel running under the wires. If one of the two single lines to Morecambe was electrified, they could run Morecambe to Lancaster every 30 minutes, with 1 tph extended to Manchester Airport in lieu of the Barrow-Manchester Airport service, which would then terminate at Lancaster. Windermere is best served as a single dmu shuttle running hourly to Oxenholme (for main-line connections) and back.

 

[Halifaxlad]

These trains should be used to reduce diesel running under the wires. If one of the two single lines to Morecambe was electrified, they could run Morecambe to Lancaster every 30 minutes, with 1 tph extended to Manchester Airport in lieu of the Barrow-Manchester Airport service, which would then terminate at Lancaster. Windermere is best served as a single dmu shuttle running hourly to Oxenholme (for main-line connections) and back.

You do realize Morcambe is every two hours ?

Your hardly going to create a case to electrify all the way from Skipton to Morecambe about 54km/ 34m on the basis that it eliminates 37km/23m of diesel running under wires every two hours especially.

Theres more chance using these on the Harrogate line that has a service frequency of either half and hour or every 20 minutes during the peaks (I can't remember off the top of my head) which is right next door!

 

[Neptune]

You do realize Morcambe is every two hours ?

Your hardly going to create a case to electrify all the way from Skipton to Morecambe about 54km/ 34m on the basis that it eliminates 37km/23m of diesel running under wires every two hours especially.

I think the poster was suggesting the short Morecambe branch which has a much more frequent service than the LNW route via Bentham.

It would be a small win to electrify that short branch (as would Windermere) but those services would still be served by the new bi-mode units that will replace the 15x fleet rather than the fantasy of 350’s coming to Northern.

 

[Spekejunction]

Understand Class 350/2 units are being returned to Porterbrook.
Does anyone know where their future lies ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Understand Class 350/2 units are being returned to Porterbrook.
Does anyone know where their future lies ?

In the many previous threads asking the same question, there’s never been an obvious answer. I don’t think there’s a suitable AC electrified route that currently needs them. They aren’t capable of DC operation unless modified.

The possibility of conversion to battery/overhead sometimes got mentioned a few years ago, but that idea seems to have gone completely cold.

 

[Mike Machin]

Modify them to run on DC, fit them with the same seats as the 350/1s and sort the Portsmouth Direct line out once and for all.

It won’t happen of cours!

 

[childwallblues]

The 350/2 seating is awful but I have ridden all of them on mainly Liverpool to Birmingham services many times and they have a good turn of speed especially between Crewe and Stafford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 350/2 seating is awful but I have ridden all of them on mainly Liverpool to Birmingham services many times and they have a good turn of speed especially between Crewe and Stafford.

I don't find it the worst. In particular the legroom in the facing bays is VERY generous.

 

[Wolfie]

The 350/2 seating is awful but I have ridden all of them on mainly Liverpool to Birmingham services many times and they have a good turn of speed especially between Crewe and Stafford.

It's not awful insomuch as it is very similar to the 3+2 seating in use in many other areas and which will also feature in the replacement LNWR rolling stock. What is so bloody special about the Pompey line that they demand 2+2?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2024 ==

I don't find it the worst. In particular the legroom in the facing bays is VERY generous.

Yup

 

[Merle Haggard]

Bearing in mind the thread title it seems fair to point out that I've heard reliably that some have already gone off-lease - ?last week. Would it be reasonable to use this thread to detail their demise on LNw/WM or would a separate thread be better?

There's been discussion above suggesting that 3+2 seating is fine for longer distance journeys. I recently travelled on the 3-seat side, against the window. As the train became more crowded someone sat at the gangway end. We were then joined by a passenger who sat between us and placed his briefcase crosswise on his lap and folded his arms so the his hands rested on his briefcase. The resulting geometry meant that I spent the rest of the journey to Euston with someone's elbow against my chest and under my chin. So, for me their demise should be charted as positive.

 

[Wolfie]

Bearing in mind the thread title it seems fair to point out that I've heard reliably that some have already gone off-lease - ?last week. Would it be reasonable to use this thread to detail their demise on LNw/WM or would a separate thread be better?

There's been discussion above suggesting that 3+2 seating is fine for longer distance journeys. I recently travelled on the 3-seat side, against the window. As the train became more crowded someone sat at the gangway end. We were then joined by a passenger who sat between us and placed his briefcase crosswise on his lap and folded his arms so the his hands rested on his briefcase. The resulting geometry meant that I spent the rest of the journey to Euston with someone's elbow against my chest and under my chin. So, for me their demise should be charted as positive.

Re your last sentence sadly a quite high proportion of the new stock is not only 3+2 but actually worse spacewise....

 

[Merle Haggard]

Re your last sentence sadly a quite high proportion of the new stock is not only 3+2 but actually worse spacewise....

Well according to the route maps in the 730s Northampton doesn't even exist and they have no routes there. I am hoping for a 350/1, /3 and /4 heaven here in the Styx

 

[DelW]

There's been discussion above suggesting that 3+2 seating is fine for longer distance journeys. I recently travelled on the 3-seat side, against the window. As the train became more crowded someone sat at the gangway end. We were then joined by a passenger who sat between us and placed his briefcase crosswise on his lap and folded his arms so the his hands rested on his briefcase. The resulting geometry meant that I spent the rest of the journey to Euston with someone's elbow against my chest and under my chin. So, for me their demise should be charted as positive.

I don't know if the 350s are the same, but in that seat on the 450s there's a wide heating duct at ankle level which means you have to skew your knees away from the sidewall and rub thighs with the middle seat occupant.

You used to be able to lift your leg on the wall side and rest that foot on the top of the duct, but then someone decided that that would be a good place to fit power points in protruding boxes, so that possibility went.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The Manchester stopping service from 2026?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know if the 350s are the same, but in that seat on the 450s there's a wide heating duct at ankle level which means you have to skew your knees away from the sidewall and rub thighs with the middle seat occupant.

You used to be able to lift your leg on the wall side and rest that foot on the top of the duct, but then someone decided that that would be a good place to fit power points in protruding boxes, so that possibility went.

The 2+3 350/2 were almost exactly the same as 450s internally as delivered, but they haven’t had the same first class relocation/reduction as 450s. Can’t say about power points though.