Future of the 350/2s

[Intercity110]

With the class 730s introduction into service imminent, and plans announced for everything they're replacing, nothing has been announced for the 350/2s. What do you think could happen to them?

 

[Neptune]

With the class 730s introduction into service imminent, and plans announced for everything they're replacing, nothing has been announced for the 350/2s. What do you think could happen to them?

Storage for now. Absolutely no other TOC has any need for them as it stands. See the various other threads on the subject.

 

[A0wen]

The one thing I could think of is if they could be modified to be 3rd rail, send them to SWR to replace the 458s - there are 36 x 458 vs 37 x 350/2.

It would remove a non standard class from SWR and they've already got the 450s which are effectively the same as 350s.

 

[D365]

The one thing I could think of is if they could be modified to be 3rd rail, send them to SWR to replace the 458s - there are 36 x 458 vs 37 x 350/2.

Given that both fleets are owned by Porterbrook, and that the 458s are due to be reverted to four car formation, you would think that this had already been considered.

 

[A0wen]

Given that both fleets are owned by Porterbrook, and that the 458s are due to be reverted to four car formation, you would think that this had already been considered.

I try not to think - very dangerous.......

 

[swt_passenger]

The one thing I could think of is if they could be modified to be 3rd rail, send them to SWR to replace the 458s - there are 36 x 458 vs 37 x 350/2.

It would remove a non standard class from SWR and they've already got the 450s which are effectively the same as 350s.

Was first suggested here about 2020 as 442 replacements, even before the 458s became the new target.

 

[RichJF]

Stick 3rd rail on them, send to Southeastern (& another micro fleet) so we can have the 377/5s back at Southern .

 

[Bevan Price]

In a logical world, they could replace Class 318 (33 years old), or most of Class 323 (30 years old) - but we all know that logic does not apply to railways in UK.

 

[Speed43125]

In a logical world, they could replace Class 318 (33 years old), or most of Class 323 (30 years old) - but we all know that logic does not apply to railways in UK.

Those are all running in areas set up for 2*3 car operation though. You could maybe argue 4 car 331s or 385s should never have been ordered, but the operational mess to rejig the Glasgow suburban network around 4*20m trains would hardly be worth it.

 

[JonathanH]

Stick 3rd rail on them, send to Southeastern (& another micro fleet) so we can have the 377/5s back at Southern .

No use at Southeastern - the door cycles are too slow and they already have too many small fleets. Southern don't want the 377/5s.

A long stay at Long Marston is the most likely future for the 350/2s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No use at Southeastern - the door cycles are too slow and they already have too many small fleets. Southern don't want the 377/5s.

A long stay at Long Marston is the most likely future for the 350/2s.

Really what should have happened to them is staying at LNR, refurbished to a 2+2 layout ideally. However, the nonsense of ordering new when old was fine caused by artificially low interest rates led us where we are.

 

[Wolfie]

Stick 3rd rail on them, send to Southeastern (& another micro fleet) so we can have the 377/5s back at Southern .

Or send the 458s to South Eastern and use the 350s to replace them at SWR.

 

[Philip]

Perhaps some could go to Northern to replace 323s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps some could go to Northern to replace 323s?

Problem is that most things on Northern are set up around 23/24m vehicles, not 20m ones. There are the 319s, but they aren't ideal because doubles aren't possible on most routes.

 

[Purple Train]

Give them to ERS and let them provide spooky sound effects for cartoons.

 

[Neptune]

Why does ‘use 350/2’s to replace 323’s at Northern’ constantly come up on here. Why do people not listen. The 323’s will run as 6 car units when the WMR units arrive. There won’t be space to operate 8 car 350’s so by default means they would have to run as 4 car units with way less capacity as they would be an 80m train compared to a 138m train.

That leads me to one conclusion. People would rather see reduced capacity at Northern than see the 350/2’s go into storage (probably to enable the usual anti-Northern rhetoric on here).

 

[RobShipway]

If East West Rail, was to have electrification, I would have said that route would have been an ideal place for the 350/2 fleet.

The question could also be asked, do you do a class 769 on the class 350/2 fleet or add battery power, which i know some maybe used to test possibly.

 

[Philip]

Why does ‘use 350/2’s to replace 323’s at Northern’ constantly come up on here. Why do people not listen. The 323’s will run as 6 car units when the WMR units arrive. There won’t be space to operate 8 car 350’s so by default means they would have to run as 4 car units with way less capacity as they would be an 80m train compared to a 138m train.

That leads me to one conclusion. People would rather see reduced capacity at Northern than see the 350/2’s go into storage (probably to enable the usual anti-Northern rhetoric on here).

The 350/2s could indirectly replace the 331/1s which in turn could be reformed from 4 coach units into 6 x 3-car (to run as doubles) and 6 x 5-car, to replace the 323s. The remaining 350/2s could either go into storage or also go to Northern to replace the 319s and provide additional capacity.

 

[JonathanH]

Northern to replace the 319s

323s from WMR are already doing that. Northern is standardising on 323s, 331s and 333s.

The 350/2s could indirectly replace the 331/1s which in turn could be reformed from 4 coach units into 6 x 3-car (to run as doubles) and 6 x 5-car, to replace the 323s.

Why? Where would a fleet of six five car 331s be useful?

 

[Neptune]

The 350/2s could indirectly replace the 331/1s which in turn could be reformed from 4 coach units into 6 x 3-car (to run as doubles) and 6 x 5-car, to replace the 323s. The remaining 350/2s could either go into storage or also go to Northern to replace the 319s and provide additional capacity.

Oh my goodness another fine idea detached from the world of reality. Do you deliberately ignore what is actually going on at Northern?

Northern will not be reforming the 331’s into your fantasy formations.

Ok please answer me the following.

1. Do you actually know if coaches removed from 4 car units can technically move into other 4 car units to create 5 cars or is it all guess work.

2. Would you like to rip up the current plans and re-write the stabling arrangements to include 5 car fixed formation EMU’s when the highly experienced planning teams working many years ahead of where we are now have all the plans in place for 3 and 4 car EMU stabling. M

Northern are getting in 323’s from WMR to replace the remaining 319’s (not sure how many people still don’t seem to realise this). Northern are not interested in adding another layer of class to the stable when standardising into fewer fleets. We’ve had this with 175’s from you, which I hope you’ve finally realised aren’t in the company’s plans, can we now please debunk it for 350/2’s also.

 

[jfollows]

Northern are getting in 323’s from WMR to replace the remaining 319’s (not sure how many people still don’t seem to realise this).

I think the main issue here is that it's been talked about, even promised, for ages, but it never actually happens. It's business as usual - jam tomorrow. I'm sure it will eventually happen, and it's a perfectly sensible solution enabling the knackered 319s to be scrapped at last. Some people seem to worry about the age of the 323s but I find them perfectly reliable and acceptable on my local services.

 

[Neptune]

I think the main issue here is that it's been talked about, even promised, for ages, but it never actually happens. It's business as usual - jam tomorrow. I'm sure it will eventually happen, and it's a perfectly sensible solution enabling the knackered 319s to be scrapped at last. Some people seem to worry about the age of the 323s but I find them perfectly reliable and acceptable on my local services.

We can’t just take them from WMR now because what would they run in their place? The 730’s are not yet in place to take over the 323 routes due to various issues. We still have the 319’s to soldier on until the 323’s arrive.

This isn’t some sort of false promise, it’s reality. If the plans for the WMR 730’s had happened as planned we would have the additional 323’s by now.

 

[Philip]

Nothing is set in stone in terms of future rolling stock plans for Northern, it's still speculative at this stage. A mini fleet of 6 five-coach 331s would be good for suburban south Manchester services (Glossop, Stoke and Crewe); 4 coaches would probably be a stretch on capacity whereas 6 coaches would be too much and overhang a few platforms. The addition of the 350/2s could also allow the 333s to be retired.

 

[Neptune]

Nothing is set in stone in terms of future rolling stock plans for Northern, it's still speculative at this stage.

Oh ok, as someone involved with the Northern fleet I shall happily concede to your obviously superior knowledge. Please go ahead and tell me what I don’t know.

A mini fleet of 6 five-coach 331s would be good for suburban south Manchester services (Glossop, Stoke and Crewe); 4 coaches would probably be a stretch on capacity whereas 6 coaches would be too much and overhang a few platforms.

So again I ask the questions which you haven’t answered (shock horror).

1. Do you actually know if coaches removed from 4 car units can technically move into other 4 car units to create 5 cars or is it all guess work.

2. Would you like to rip up the current plans and re-write the stabling arrangements to include 5 car fixed formation EMU’s when the highly experienced planning teams working many years ahead of where we are now have all the plans in place for 3 and 4 car EMU stabling.

The addition of the 350/2s could also allow the 333s to be retired.

Let me tell you. There are no plans to replace the 333’s.

I feel like I need to re-iterate this to you. ‘Northern are not taking on the 350/2’s. We have zero need for them and all EMU fleet plans are in place. These are 323/331 (west) and 331/333 (east). Associated servicing and stabling planning is also in place for this’.

If you know something more than those who actually work in the relevant departments then please let us all know.

Also I look forward to your detailed answers to the 2 questions I asked you in post #20.

 

[Philip]

1. Do you actually know if coaches removed from 4 car units can technically move into other 4 car units to create 5 cars or is it all guess work.

I can't say for sure, but I would imagine so as it has been done before in many other fleets.

2. Would you like to rip up the current plans and re-write the stabling arrangements to include 5 car fixed formation EMU’s when the highly experienced planning teams working many years ahead of where we are now have all the plans in place for 3 and 4 car EMU stabling.

I doubt this would be a major stumbling block if DfT/Northern decided to go with an idea like this.

Even though you are involved in rolling stock plans, you will know that these plans could potentially change if the DfT wants to find an operator to keep the 350/2s in service. It is speculative at this stage but the above ideas are suggestions for how Northern could utilize them should the DfT decide to send them there.

 

[JonathanH]

Why would the DfT incur the expense of using 350/2s effectively just for the sake of using them?

Seems fairly unlikely that Porterbrook would come along with an offer the DfT can't refuse when they are already the lessor of the 323s.

 

[Philip]

Why would the DfT incur the expense of using 350/2s effectively just for the sake of using them?

Seems fairly unlikely that Porterbrook would come along with an offer the DfT can't refuse when they are already the lessor of the 323s.

In the increasingly electrified railway, it makes sense to keep as many modern EMUs running in service as possible; still a good few routes where DMUs run under wires throughout which could do with upgrading to EMUS. In theory it makes more sense to retire the 323s than it does the 350/2s as the 323s are about 10 years older.

 

[Neptune]

I can't say for sure, but I would imagine so as it has been done before in many other fleets.

You can’t say at all. Hunches are not a good way to run a railway. Same as having micro fleets of 3, 4 & 5 coach trains just to try and shoehorn another fleet of trains of another different size in. Standard sizes are far easier to plan around and this is what Northern are slowly working towards.

I doubt this would be a major stumbling block if DfT/Northern decided to go with an idea like this.

Well, they aren’t going to go with that idea but If you think that it’s not a major stumbling block then please present us with your plans. I’d be intrigued to see just how bloody easy it is.

Even though you are involved in rolling stock plans, you will know that these plans could potentially change if the DfT wants to find an operator to keep the 350/2s in service. It is speculative at this stage but the above ideas are suggestions for how Northern could utilize them should the DfT decide to send them there.

Yes I know plans change (323’s for 319’s for instance). However you are speculating on how Northern could shoehorn the 350/2’s into their fleet, those of us working in the real world know damn well that this isn’t going to happen. You can’t just rip up years worth of work at a moments notice just because a few enthusiasts don’t like newer stock going for storage. Notice how the other ‘Railforums favourite fleet for going to Northern’ the class 379 is ‘still’ in storage. The DfT don’t seem to be imposing them on Northern or indeed anyone else despite what people used to think would happen.

In the increasingly electrified railway, it makes sense to keep as many modern EMUs running in service as possible; still a good few routes where DMUs run under wires throughout which could do with upgrading to EMUS. In theory it makes more sense to retire the 323s than it does the 350/2s as the 323s are about 10 years older.

Northern don’t run any DMU’s entirely under the wires except for a few services for positioning moves at either end of the day. Have you forgotten last week’s thread about the bi-modes or do you reset each week to formulate the next plan for getting every orphaned fleet at Northern?

 

[XAM2175]

In a logical world, they could replace Class 318 (33 years old), or most of Class 323 (30 years old) - but we all know that logic does not apply to railways in UK.

Those are all running in areas set up for 2*3 car operation though. You could maybe argue 4 car 331s or 385s should never have been ordered, but the operational mess to rejig the Glasgow suburban network around 4*20m trains would hardly be worth it.

The 318s and 320s are being replaced as one group by a new-build fleet later this decade. I recall hearing a suggestion that the new units will be 6*20m or the equivalent (like 5*24m) from the get-go, but don't quote me on that without letting me double-check

 

[Laurencemcd]

In the increasingly electrified railway, it makes sense to keep as many modern EMUs running in service as possible; still a good few routes where DMUs run under wires throughout which could do with upgrading to EMUS. In theory it makes more sense to retire the 323s than it does the 350/2s as the 323s are about 10 years older.

While true, the age difference is arguably the only logical motive for Northern using 350/2s over 323s. Norther drivers already being familiar with 323s, their length to enable 6 car operation, capacity, acceleration, and most likely cheaper leasing and track access cost makes the planned transfer more logical in my opinion.

WMR 323212s recent return from Bletchley to receive digital mods (USB, passenger counter, media screens, etc) on benahlf of Northern shows that the transfer is very likely still happening.

I frequently travel on both Northern and WMR units and IMO they are perfectly acceptable for the work they are diagrammed on and have aged very well considering their usage.