PIS & TMS systems of British Rolling Stock.

[RacsoMoquette]

I am interested to compare the PIS and TMS systems on the three unit families during the early days of the privatised railway. What is the TMS system akin to on the 1st generation Desiros? How did it look in the cab? I find the internal green flip dot displays on the Desiros to be reliable and easy to read. I have recently noticed the Desiros displays show a static station name to one side of the display when approaching the nest station after the announcement, have they always had this feature or is it a modification to the system? Also did the Desiros PIS in their early days have an all capitalised words in the centre of the display? I remember seeing a photograph of a Class 444 during their early days and it just read WEYMOUTH in capitals. Did all Desiro units feature this all capitalised static feature from new and when was it altered to the current system? Also are the Desiros able to display customised messages initiated by the driver e.g. "Merry Christmas" or something similar? I seem to remember seeing a photograph of this capability on a SWT Class 450 in the late noughties bearing a custom message akin to the latter. Is this feature still present or has it been disabled? Recently I have not seen any photographs of the phenomenon which leads me to believe it has been disabled, or the system modernised.

Alstom Coradia Juniper/1000- I know what the TMS system in the cap of these units looks akin to, it is blue and has an interesting font to it, What were the Class 460,458 and 334 internal PIS script like when new? I remember due to new RVAR legislation the PIS display housings were heightened on the Class 458s and Class 460s from 32mm to 35mm, however the Class 334 displays were not, for reference they still retain their original tiny red figures in their equally tiny housing. Why did the Class 334s displays never got heightened? are the RVAR regulations different in Scotland? Did the Class 458s and Class 460s have the same sequence that the Class 334s have? were the any differences in the format of the script? Did it feature any static messages? If anyone has a video clip of a Class 458/0 or a Class 460 PIS display (Before heightening with red text akin to the Class 334s) it would be most welcome! I think that the Class 180s and 175s also has the same height of displays to the Junipers, why were they not heightened? I presume the Coradia 1000s had some features non compliant with RVAR akin to the Junipers! while they still retain their original red text with poor syntax!

ADtranz Electrostar- In my opinion I think the Electrostar demonstrated the most contemporary PIS system, the orange LEDs really looked more modern that Siemens green flipdot and Alstoms outdated and unclear red LEDs! What was the TMS system in the cab of early Electrostars like? from memory the displays was grey and had a analogue clock outline with hands (albeit without numbers) It must have been robust and good quality seeing as the same examples lasted on new (Bombardier) builds right up until the 2010s

Images to reference SIEMENS DESIRO PIS DISPLAYS:

How long did the Central Trains/Silverlink Class 350/1s retain this announcement? Did it also have a versions saying “Silverlink” instead of “Central Trains”. Did they retain the same announcement bar the references for the defunct operators until London Midland Days? When was Julie Berry retrofitted to the fleet?

What were the original announcements of the 170s and the Class 377s and 375s? Did the Central Trains Class 170s also have the same DVA as the 350s?

 

[RacsoMoquette]

I seem to remember the LTS Rail Class 357/0s having a male voice before being fully changed to Julie Berry upon the same time the /2s and /3s entered service.
Did the Southern & Southeasterns Electrostars also have the same male voice before Julie Berry?
Did the external PIS indicators change to their existing state during the retrofit?
FOR REFERANCE:

The display text appears to be much smaller and narrower, with all characters in one slide, without it having to scroll as with the new system!

For Example: The updated external PIS characters are far larger and clearer, however they scroll. Would anybody know when This modification was carried out to the fleet?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I seem to remember the LTS Rail Class 357/0s having a male voice before being fully changed to Julie Berry upon the same time the /2s and /3s entered service.
Did the Southern & Southeasterns Electrostars also have the same male voice before Julie Berry?
Did the external PIS indicators change to their existing state during the retrofit?
FOR REFERANCE:View attachment 158172

The display text appears to be much smaller and narrower, with all characters in one slide, without it having to scroll as with the new system!

For Example: The updated external PIS characters are far larger and clearer, however they scroll. Would anybody know when This modification was carried out to the fleet?

This confuses me on SWR 158s too. They cram "London Waterloo" and "Exeter St David's" in tiny letters over two lines, as with that early 377 above, but then "Chandler's Ford" is large, one line, and scrolling.

 

[wls1]

I seem to remember the LTS Rail Class 357/0s having a male voice before being fully changed to Julie Berry upon the same time the /2s and /3s entered service.

Not sure of when they were first introduced, however before Julie Berry, c2c onboard announcements were done by a different female voice, this is the only video I have been able to find of one here:

also note that they say "Great Eastern" services to Romford in 2008! They also kept National Express on there well into Greater Anglia and Silverlink well into London Overground.

 

[Bigfoot]

Desiro 450/444 PIS and TMS are two separate systems with no link to one another.

 

[stadler]

I am interested to compare the PIS and TMS systems on the three unit families during the early days of the privatised railway. What is the TMS system akin to on the 1st generation Desiros? How did it look in the cab? I find the internal green flip dot displays on the Desiros to be reliable and easy to read. I have recently noticed the Desiros displays show a static station name to one side of the display when approaching the nest station after the announcement, have they always had this feature or is it a modification to the system? Also did the Desiros PIS in their early days have an all capitalised words in the centre of the display? I remember seeing a photograph of a Class 444 during their early days and it just read WEYMOUTH in capitals. Did all Desiro units feature this all capitalised static feature from new and when was it altered to the current system? Also are the Desiros able to display customised messages initiated by the driver e.g. "Merry Christmas" or something similar? I seem to remember seeing a photograph of this capability on a SWT Class 450 in the late noughties bearing a custom message akin to the latter. Is this feature still present or has it been disabled? Recently I have not seen any photographs of the phenomenon which leads me to believe it has been disabled, or the system modernised.

Alstom Coradia Juniper/1000- I know what the TMS system in the cap of these units looks akin to, it is blue and has an interesting font to it, What were the Class 460,458 and 334 internal PIS script like when new? I remember due to new RVAR legislation the PIS display housings were heightened on the Class 458s and Class 460s from 32mm to 35mm, however the Class 334 displays were not, for reference they still retain their original tiny red figures in their equally tiny housing. Why did the Class 334s displays never got heightened? are the RVAR regulations different in Scotland? Did the Class 458s and Class 460s have the same sequence that the Class 334s have? were the any differences in the format of the script? Did it feature any static messages? If anyone has a video clip of a Class 458/0 or a Class 460 PIS display (Before heightening with red text akin to the Class 334s) it would be most welcome! I think that the Class 180s and 175s also has the same height of displays to the Junipers, why were they not heightened? I presume the Coradia 1000s had some features non compliant with RVAR akin to the Junipers! while they still retain their original red text with poor syntax!

ADtranz Electrostar- In my opinion I think the Electrostar demonstrated the most contemporary PIS system, the orange LEDs really looked more modern that Siemens green flipdot and Alstoms outdated and unclear red LEDs! What was the TMS system in the cab of early Electrostars like? from memory the displays was grey and had a analogue clock outline with hands (albeit without numbers) It must have been robust and good quality seeing as the same examples lasted on new (Bombardier) builds right up until the 2010s

Images to reference SIEMENS DESIRO PIS DISPLAYS:

How long did the Central Trains/Silverlink Class 350/1s retain this announcement? Did it also have a versions saying “Silverlink” instead of “Central Trains”. Did they retain the same announcement bar the references for the defunct operators until London Midland Days? When was Julie Berry retrofitted to the fleet?

What were the original announcements of the 170s and the Class 377s and 375s? Did the Central Trains Class 170s also have the same DVA as the 350s?

The announcements on Silverlink were the same but said "welcome onboard this Silverlink County service to" so they did indeed have a Silverlink version on the 350s. Silverlink was always announced as Silverlink County (for what is now the LM/LNWR services) or Silverlink Metro (for what is now the LO services) and even the station announcements said this. Julie Berry was introduced in mid 2008 about six months after LM took over.

The 375s and 377s have had the same exact automated announcements since they were introduced. The announcements today are still the same as when they were introduced. Of course there has been minor changes such as the TOC name but nothing major. It has been Julie Berry from day one. So the automated announcements are pretty much unchanged.

The CT 170s and MM 170s never had any automated announcements. So there was nothing playing on these. The LM 170s also did not have any automated announcements either. The screens worked but there was no automated announcements. The XC 170s are still like this today.

I seem to remember the LTS Rail Class 357/0s having a male voice before being fully changed to Julie Berry upon the same time the /2s and /3s entered service.
Did the Southern & Southeasterns Electrostars also have the same male voice before Julie Berry?
Did the external PIS indicators change to their existing state during the retrofit?
FOR REFERANCE:View attachment 158172

The display text appears to be much smaller and narrower, with all characters in one slide, without it having to scroll as with the new system!

For Example: The updated external PIS characters are far larger and clearer, however they scroll. Would anybody know when This modification was carried out to the fleet?

The 357s had a different female voice up until 2008 when Julie Berry was introduced. They never had a male voice. You might be thinking of the FGE/ONE 360s which had a male voice until 2008. Also the HC 360s had a different male voice too until 2008. Finally the HX 360 (the ITT unit 205) had yet another male voice until 2014.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Thanks for that extremely informative yet comprehensive detailed list. Out of interest did the Class 323s initially ever have a DVA? They did have electronic front and side destination displays (The former covered shortly after introduction) they were the yellow type akin to the original examples on the Networkers. I am aware the 323s never had internal displays, but did they ever have auto announcements?

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Thanks for that extremely informative yet comprehensive detailed list. Out of interest did the Class 323s initially ever have a DVA? They did have electronic front and side destination displays (The former covered shortly after introduction) they were the yellow type akin to the original examples on the Networkers. I am aware the 323s never had internal displays, but did they ever have auto announcements?

 

[MCR247]

Thanks for that extremely informative yet comprehensive detailed list. Out of interest did the Class 323s initially ever have a DVA? They did have electronic front and side destination displays (The former covered shortly after introduction) they were the yellow type akin to the original examples on the Networkers. I am aware the 323s never had internal displays, but did they ever have auto announcements?

As far as I know the auto announcements were only installed relatively recently

 

[occone]

The 175/180s displays were very much just repeating what was announced. I get the sense they were seen as an accessibility add-on and not given much more thought than that; most of the time the display is blank. Same with the pendolinos.

There was a change in approach with the Voyagers and turbo/electrostars which used the displays when not scrolling a message to show the coach letter and/or loop through standard messages.

On the Coradias, the display always looked a bit shoehorned in, often with the loo sign cut into the display surround which looks quite clunky.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

I seem to remember that the PIS system on the Coradia Class 175/180 were able to play specific messages imitated from the TMS. E.g “Smoking is prohibited on First Great Western” or something advertising the Refresca cafe bar! Though the PIS on the Voyagers and Turbostars were much more sophisticated.

 

[stadler]

I seem to remember that the PIS system on the Coradia Class 175/180 were able to play specific messages imitated from the TMS. E.g “Smoking is prohibited on First Great Western” or something advertising the Refresca cafe bar! Though the PIS on the Voyagers and Turbostars were much more sophisticated.

Yes they did indeed have that ability. Also the 460s were the same. I remember on the 460s they had a bunch of custom automated announcements that could be initiated from the TMS about the lack of a trolley service and being held at a red signal and a longer journey time due to the train being diverted etc. I believe the 175/180/334/458/460 all have pretty much the same exact PIS system.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Just out of interest, was the original DVA voice of the Class 460s the same type used on the Coradia 175s and 180s? Of course the 334s had "Annoying Annie" and the 458/0s had "Random SWT Man"
The examples on the 175s and 180s was along the lines of this: First Great Western Welcomes passengers joining this Cardiff Central Service, and then proceeded to list the calling patterns and the types of coach within the formation. Was the DVA on the 460s similar?

Also one complaint I have regarding the PIS screens on the Voyagers is how unclear the figures are! the red text is extremely faint and is rather difficult to read at the best of times!

 

[stadler]

Just out of interest, was the original DVA voice of the Class 460s the same type used on the Coradia 175s and 180s? Of course the 334s had "Annoying Annie" and the 458/0s had "Random SWT Man"
The examples on the 175s and 180s was along the lines of this: First Great Western Welcomes passengers joining this Cardiff Central Service, and then proceeded to list the calling patterns and the types of coach within the formation. Was the DVA on the 460s similar?

Also one complaint I have regarding the PIS screens on the Voyagers is how unclear the figures are! the red text is extremely faint and is rather difficult to read at the best of times!

No the voice on the 460s was a completely different person. Alison Forster was the 175/180 voice (and was supplemented by Ruth Michell on the 175s after ATW/TFW took them) but she was not on the 460s though. Nobody has ever found out who the 460s voice was. She had a very nice sounding voice. I really liked her announcements. She was certainly a professional voiceover artist.

The voice and script of the announcements on the 460s was completely different to other Alsthom trains. It was the same PIS system and same TMS screen but the actual voice and script was very different.

She can be heard in these videos:

00:02 to 01:22:

00:20 to 01:30:

01:22 to 02:52:

04:08 to 05:26:

08:40 to 10:04:

I remember she never recorded Brighton so the once a day 460 to and from in their late years never had any automated announcements at all.

This was the full 460s announcement script:

NORTHBOUND 1ST:
"Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome onboard this Gatwick Express to London Victoria. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN. We shall be travelling non stop and are due to arrive in thirty minutes. If you do not already hold a ticket, you may buy one at no extra charge from a member of the on train team who will be passing through the train shortly. You may buy tickets using, cash, credit cards, or cheques. Certain tickets are not permitted on this service. If you are unsure of your ticket, a member of the on train team will be happy to help you. For your comfort and safety, we have provided safety information notices. These notices are located around the entrance and exits to this train. Please take a few moments to read these notices. Thank you for your attention."

NORTHBOUND 2ND:
"Ladies and gentlemen. We have now departed for London Victoria and are due to arrive in thirty minutes. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN. A trolley buffet service will be passing through the train to serve you at your seats with, tea, coffee, alcoholic and non alcoholic drinks, and light refreshments. For security reasons and to allow the trolley to pass through the train, would you please ensure that your luggage is not blocking the central aisles or doorways. We hope you have a pleasant journey, and should you have any questions, please ask one of our staff as they pass through the train."

NORTHBOUND 3RD:
"Ladies and gentlemen. We are now approaching London Victoria where this train terminates. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN. For security reasons, please keep your luggage and personal belongings with you at all times. If you require a porter please ask a member of staff, who will be happy to help. Licensed taxis are available upstairs, and at the front of the station, where you will also find London Underground and London Buses. We hope you had a pleasant journey and thank you for travelling on the Gatwick Express. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN."

NORTHBOUND 4TH:
"Ladies and gentlemen. We have now arrived at London Victoria. Please ensure you take all your luggage and personal belongings with you when you leave the train. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN."

SOUTHBOUND 1ST:
"Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome onboard this Gatwick Express to Gatwick Airport. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN. We shall be travelling non stop and are due to arrive in thirty minutes. If you do not already hold a ticket, you may buy one at no extra charge from a member of the on train team who will be passing through the train shortly. You may buy tickets using, cash, credit cards, or cheques. Certain tickets are not permitted on this service. If you are unsure of your ticket, a member of the on train team will be happy to help you. For your comfort and safety, we have provided safety information notices. These notices are located around the entrance and exits to this train. Please take a few moments to read these notices. Thank you for your attention."

SOUTHBOUND 2ND:
"Ladies and gentlemen. We have now departed for Gatwick Airport and are due to arrive in thirty minutes. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN. A trolley buffet service will be passing through the train to serve you at your seats with, tea, coffee, alcoholic and non alcoholic drinks, and light refreshments. For security reasons and to allow the trolley to pass through the train, would you please ensure that your luggage is not blocking the central aisles or doorways. We hope you have a pleasant journey, and should you have any questions, please ask one of our staff as they pass through the train."

SOUTHBOUND 3RD:
"Ladies and gentlemen. We are now approaching Gatwick Airport where this train terminates. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN. For security reasons, please keep your luggage and personal belongings with you at all times. If you require a porter please ask a member of staff, who will be happy to help. Escalators and lifts are available from most platforms to the South Terminal where you will find directions to the North Terminal. We hope you had a pleasant journey and thank you for travelling on the Gatwick Express. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN."

SOUTHBOUND 4TH:
"Ladies and gentlemen. We have now arrived at Gatwick Airport. Please ensure you take all your luggage and personal belongings with you when you leave the train. REPEAT IN FRENCH. REPEAT IN GERMAN. REPEAT IN SPANISH. REPEAT IN ITALIAN."

Although we have never found out who the English female is on the 460s we have found out some of the other language voices:

460:
• English - Unknown Female
• German - Britta Gartner
• French - Brigitte Sawyer (same as 387/442)
• Spanish - Unknown Female (same as 387/442)
• Italian - Benedetta Ferraro (same as 387/442)

387/442:
• English - Julie Berry
• German - Ruth Rach
• French - Brigitte Sawyer (same as 460)
• Spanish - Unknown Female (same as 460)
• Italian - Benedetta Ferraro (same as 460)

I always thought the 460s had one of the nicest most polite sounding announcements.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

What a splendid collection of videos! It is interesting that the Alstom inflection issue is not present on the 460s, though is present on other Coradias and Junipers!

Also, why have Northern replaced the original DMIs on the Class 170s? Now they have the poor quality TrainFX system that their Sprinters have. Is it anticipated that all the Class 170s will receive said modification? It is a shame really as their original PIS screens were far superior.https://www.google.com/search?q=Nor...ate=ive&vld=cid:cd8edde5,vid:VheM8Re715Y,st:0

 

[stadler]

What a splendid collection of videos! It is interesting that the Alstom inflection issue is not present on the 460s, though is present on other Coradias and Junipers!

Also, why have Northern replaced the original DMIs on the Class 170s? Now they have the poor quality TrainFX system that their Sprinters have. Is it anticipated that all the Class 170s will receive said modification? It is a shame really as their original PIS screens were far superior.https://www.google.com/search?q=Nor...ate=ive&vld=cid:cd8edde5,vid:VheM8Re715Y,st:0

As well as the screens Northern changed the entire PIS system on their 170s to be compatible with the rest of their fleet. Originally the 170s are fitted with the BTROS (Whiteleys) system and this is what all other 170s still use. However all of the 15Xs are fitted with the TrainFX system. So this means that if a 15X and 170 were coupled to each other the PIS would not work as they are using two separate incompatible systems. So because of this Northern decided to change from BTROS (Whiteleys) to TrainFX to match the rest of the fleet. I have been told that the screens had to be changed as well as they were part of the original BTROS (Whiteleys) system and were therefore not compatible with the TrainFX system. It is a shame as the original system and screens were so much better. Considering that the 15Xs and 170s are rarely coupled they should have just kept the original system.

 

[occone]

It is interesting that the Alstom inflection issue

Best example has to be Sunderland:

First Great Western Welcomes passengers

 

[RacsoMoquette]

I am interested to know, if any other examples of foreign Alstom stock, which have similar PIS and inflection issues exist? Would anybody bear any examples? Of course dating back from the late nineties early 00s periods? Would the extensive fleet of Coradia fleets on the continant hold similar PIS software? Thanks For any valuable information!

 

[scotraildriver]

As well as the screens Northern changed the entire PIS system on their 170s to be compatible with the rest of their fleet. Originally the 170s are fitted with the BTROS (Whiteleys) system and this is what all other 170s still use. However all of the 15Xs are fitted with the TrainFX system. So this means that if a 15X and 170 were coupled to each other the PIS would not work as they are using two separate incompatible systems. So because of this Northern decided to change from BTROS (Whiteleys) to TrainFX to match the rest of the fleet. I have been told that the screens had to be changed as well as they were part of the original BTROS (Whiteleys) system and were therefore not compatible with the TrainFX system. It is a shame as the original system and screens were so much better. Considering that the 15Xs and 170s are rarely coupled they should have just kept the original system.

The original system is very outdated now and parts are becoming obsolete. ScotRail looked to update their 170s and 158s but no funding currently. The database is completely full, and any updates have to be done using a flashcard in every individual cab. It can take weeks to update the whole fleet. Trainfx can be updated remotely and the whole fleet updated in a matter of seconds, providing the units are communicating properly. They can also be changed easily to accommodate short term changes for engineering works etc, not an option for the original system.

 

[trainJam]

London Midland 170s used

The next station is
--------<---------- Shrewsbury

whereas CrossCountry use

Now approaching
-----^-----
^
^
Derby

where the arrows show the motion of travel of the text. I think this was also the case with the "This train is for" pages.


Chilterns 168s seem to have a different colour for adverts e.g. website.

I remember boarding a LM170 which just said

Train to:
Hereford

and nothing else.


For PAs made from the saloon, I remember hearing a low pitched version of the "ding dong" chime.


LM Class 153s also had the same displays inside.

 

[occone]

The Coradia platform seems to be an incredibly broad system, from what I gather the inflection issue is only really on the Coradia 1000s which comprises the 175 and 180. Happy to be corrected on this.

But a look on Wikipedia suggests that the Coradia platform spans a huge range of trains

 

[Goldfish62]

Just out of interest, was the original DVA voice of the Class 460s the same type used on the Coradia 175s and 180s? Of course the 334s had "Annoying Annie" and the 458/0s had "Random SWT Man"

When first introduced the 458/0s had a really disjointed female voice, before being replaced by "Juniper Man / Random SWT Man".

 

[stadler]

When first introduced the 458/0s had a really disjointed female voice, before being replaced by "Juniper Man / Random SWT Man".

Oh i never realised that. She must have been used for a very short time. I remember the male voice from quite early on. I wonder if she was a staff member. I do not suppose you have any recordings of her? Or are you aware of any videos where she can be heard?

 

[Goldfish62]

Oh i never realised that. She must have been used for a very short time. I remember the male voice from quite early on. I wonder if she was a staff member. I do not suppose you have any recordings of her? Or are you aware of any videos where she can be heard?

I presume she was supplied by Alstom. Unfortunately I can't find any recordings anywhere. She was certainly still around when the 458/0s started being introduced on full diagrams on the Reading line, but was replaced soon after.
The recordings just sounded like a load of separate words crudely spliced together.

 

[Harvey B]

It is a shame as the original system and screens were so much better. Considering that the 15Xs and 170s are rarely coupled they should have just kept the original system.

And even when they do, it's mostly so the 170s can get from Hull to Leeds so they can spend a few days doing the Harrogate turns. & in those cases, I'd imagine that the 170 is Locked out of use anyway.

& if thats the case then installing Train FX is pretty much useless. The original system was miles better than Tfx IMHO