Electric bike on London Overground - continually being ejected from trains.

[NLC1072]

Hi all,

Issue is when fare inspectors come around on the London Overground I am having battles with them to remain onboard when they see that my push bike is electric, sometimes being ejected or allowed to travel with a warning for next time. I travel at off peak times only with it. I have looked at their carriage rules for bikes/ebikes and the only electrically driven personal transporters banned are e-scooters and e-unicycles. Who can I go to so that this stops happening?

Thanks,

NLC1072.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it a proper, pre-built EAPC* certified e-bike, or an approved kit?

* Electric Assisted Pedal Cycle

 

[NLC1072]

I've no idea, it's a 250w electric pedal assist bike?

 

[Dai Corner]

See https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport

Non-folded cycles
You can take non-folded cycles on some services at specific times

London Overground
Allowed Monday to Friday before 07:30, between 09:30 and 16:00, and after 19:00
Allowed anytime on weekends and bank holidays
You can also take non-folded cycles on trains:

Leaving Liverpool Street station going towards Chingford, Enfield Town or Cheshunt, between 07:30 and 09:30
Arriving at Liverpool Street station from Chingford, Enfield Town or Cheshunt, between 16:00 and 19:00

.

 

[Starmill]

See https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport

Seems to be nothing to distinguish between assisted and pedal-only in the information that I can see.

 

[NLC1072]

See https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport

Thank you, yes I always travel off peak, mainly at weekends.

 

[cf111]

I'm not sure if this answer to a question to the Mayor has been superseded since, but it might be of some assistance.

E-bikes and E-scooters

www.london.gov.uk

Reference:2023/1074
Question by:Hina Bokhari
Organisation:Liberal Democrats
Asked of:The Mayor
Category:Transport
Question
E-bikes and E-scooters
What conditions must be met for the ban on e-bikes and e-scooters on TfL services to be lifted?

Answer
Date: Tuesday 28 March 2023
Officers are drafting a response.

Date: Tuesday 18 July 2023
E-bikes are not currently prohibited on Transport for London (TfL) services – they fall under the same restrictions on carriage as standard bicycles.

I would contact TFL customer services, highlighting that answer and asking for clarification. You could keep their response on your phone to show to staff and I would hope that would help

Contact us about cycling and e-scooters

Contact us about cycling

tfl.gov.uk

I totally understand not wanting to cause a scene when asked to leave, but think you would be within your rights to politely but firmly refuse to do so. Please do let us know how you get on if you get an answer from TfL.

 

[Craig1122]

Press release when e scooters were banned:

"The ban will include all e-scooters and e-unicycles, but does not include mobility scooters that are permitted on the network or foldable e-bikes. E-bikes are generally subject to better manufacturing standards and the batteries are usually positioned in a place where they are less likely to be damaged, and so are less of a fire risk. Non-foldable e-bikes will continue to be allowed on some parts of the network at certain times of the day."

See the second paragraph from Lilli Matson:

TfL announces safety ban of e-scooters on transport network

TfL announces safety ban of e-scooters on transport network

tfl.gov.uk

 

[D7666]

deleted while i check something tomorrow

 

[SargeNpton]

Not all "ebikes" are legal for use on the public highway in this country. If the OP's bike is not a legal one and the inspectors recognise it as being of that type then that may be why he is being asked to leave the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not all "ebikes" are legal for use on the public highway in this country. If the OP's bike is not a legal one and the inspectors recognise it as being of that type then that may be why he is being asked to leave the train.

That was why, in the first reply, I asked if it was an EAPC certified pre-built cycle or a proper kit rather than one of those illegal bodge jobs used by Deliveroo couriers and the likes. I can see why they'd ask someone to leave if they had one of those bodge jobs with wires everywhere - they're as much of a fire hazard as e-scooters, if not worse because an e-scooter is small and light and could easily be thrown or kicked out of the door if it did catch fire.

 

[AndrewE]

Isn't it most likely that the inspectors are also (like some other railway people with a certain amount of authority) making up their own rules, and reading the scooter prohibition across to bikes?

 

[Dai Corner]

That was why, in the first reply, I asked if it was an EAPC certified pre-built cycle or a proper kit rather than one of those illegal bodge jobs used by Deliveroo couriers and the likes. I can see why they'd ask someone to leave if they had one of those bodge jobs with wires everywhere - they're as much of a fire hazard as e-scooters, if not worse because an e-scooter is small and light and could easily be thrown or kicked out of the door if it did catch fire.

As the owner doesn't know it's unlikely that train crew would be able to determine the certification status. I can quite understand why they aren't happy about carrying them though. TfL should really make a decision and brief staff accordingly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the owner doesn't know it's unlikely that train crew would be able to determine the certification status.

Proper EAPCs (I've got one) are marked - however it's also pretty obvious from looking at them.

I can quite understand why they aren't happy about carrying them though. TfL should really make a decision and brief staff accordingly.

They have done. They are permitted.

 

[Haywain]

I don't know about the electric bike, I'm just astonished that the OP is "continually being ejected from trains" - I don't think I have ever seen any sort of revenue inspection on London Overground services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know about the electric bike, I'm just astonished that the OP is "continually being ejected from trains" - I don't think I have ever seen any sort of revenue inspection on London Overground services.

That's a good point. I think I've been inspected on board on the Tube about twice ever. Most revenue is done at gatelines on the Tube.

 

[Crithylum]

I don't know about the electric bike, I'm just astonished that the OP is "continually being ejected from trains" - I don't think I have ever seen any sort of revenue inspection on London Overground services.

Probably drifting off topic, but my most recent overground journey I was revenue inspected. Although this is only one incident so maybe I got the 1 in a few hundred chance of inspection. However I don’t use overground frequently.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

A photo of the bike in question (or a link to the model on a legitimate retailer's website) might help us understand how reasonable it would be for a revenue inspector to be concerned about its safety.

 

[NLC1072]

The bike looks very similar to this one here but a 36v 250w version.



I have been revenue inspected three times in the last month on the Barking Riverside to Gospel Oak line and once on the North London Line. Twice being ejected to not cause a scene, and once I managed to persuade the inspectors to allow me to remain onboard and once being left alone without a mention of it.

Thanks for all your replies above, now I have a direction to go to see whether this can be sorted.

Curious as well as to some posters noting that it may be possible to eject an electric pedal assist cycle if it is not road legal, why would this have any effect on whether they would carry it? I have plenty of drones that I take on the Elizabeth line to Heathrow Airport many times with no issue, yet they are not legal to use near Heathrow?

 

[furlong]

NRCoT:

22.3 Unless prohibited by a Train Company’s individual cycle policy, electric assist pedal cycles and e-scooters may be carried on trains provided that they are similar in size to a traditional cycle or scooter. Power assisted cycles without traditional cycle-style pedals, or with oversized dimensions cannot be carried.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Curious as well as to some posters noting that it may be possible to eject an electric pedal assist cycle if it is not road legal, why would this have any effect on whether they would carry it?

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that road legal electric bikes have to comply with safety standards which include how likely they are to burst into flames. Non-legal bikes (I understand) don't necessarily meet these standards, so there's a greater risk of the things catching fire. This is an obvious problem on any train, and particularly if the train is likely to be in a tunnel.

 

[wildcard]

To add to the confusion - I was on a local LNR service out of Euston some weeks ago and as we approached Harrow & Wealdstone the guard tannoyed the train to tell a number of Deliveroo/Just Eat guys on board that their electric bikes are not allowed on LNR and they should take the Overground instead - and to get off the train. I think they were planning to anyway. Plus he said they had all been told this several times before - with the implication they would be in trouble next time. I not heard this before or since which is odd as I often see a group of riders on Saturday's - around midday - joining LNR at HRW without any obvious intervention from the guard - presumably for an early evening shift in Central London. All bikes are of the non folding wide tyre type - which seems to be the delivery boy's bike of choice.

 

[talldave]

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that road legal electric bikes have to comply with safety standards which include how likely they are to burst into flames. Non-legal bikes (I understand) don't necessarily meet these standards, so there's a greater risk of the things catching fire. This is an obvious problem on any train, and particularly if the train is likely to be in a tunnel.

But a random member of staff can't just make up the ejection rules on-the-fly based on their personal observations and random variable knowledge of road law.

 

[renegademaster]

I put the battery in my backpack to avoid these kerfuffles

 

[AndrewE]

But a random member of staff can't just make up the ejection rules on-the-fly based on their personal observations and random variable knowledge of road law.

doesn't that situation mirror what we are told about the level of competence (i.e. knowledge of actual ticketing rules) of ticket inspection staff?

 

[AlterEgo]

More staff going out of their way to misinterpret rules to the disbenefit of a customer. I’d be claiming my fares back for each instance here. Preposterous incompetence, throwing passengers off when they have a perfectly legal e-bike. Once again, the staff’s mere presence has made the customer’s journey worse. They’d have had a better time not coming across them.

 

[island]

But a random member of staff can't just make up the ejection rules on-the-fly based on their personal observations and random variable knowledge of road law.

Byelaw 12 (2) says they can.

They probably shouldn’t, but they can.

 

[Watershed]

Byelaw 12 (2) says they can.

They probably shouldn’t, but they can.

If you have "good cause", you can ignore the instructions. Of course, what constitutes "good cause" may be a matter for debate.

 

[43066]

If you have "good cause", you can ignore the instructions. Of course, what constitutes "good cause" may be a matter for debate.

And if you get it wrong you’ll potentially then be committing railway trespass.

I’m not defending staff getting it wrong, and by all means discuss the situation robustly (while remaining polite), but if a member of staff still insists that you leave it’s best to comply with their instructions and complain later, rather than refusing to move.

But a random member of staff can't just make up the ejection rules on-the-fly based on their personal observations and random variable knowledge of road law.

The problem, as always, is a lack of training, and a situation where non experts being asked to apply policies that require more knowledge than they’re equipped with. As a layman I could identify an escooter, but I wouldn’t be able to distinguish between a road legal ebike and the “bodge job” sort that @Bletchleyite described above.

 

[AndrewE]

The problem, as always, is a lack of training, and a situation where non experts being asked to apply policies that require more knowledge than they’re equipped with. As a layman I could identify an escooter, but I wouldn’t be able to distinguish between a road legal ebike and the “bodge job” sort that @Bletchleyite described above.

It strikes me that it is not a matter of judgment, just a failure to apply the NRCOT (from a post above):

22.3 Unless prohibited by a Train Company’s individual cycle policy, electric assist pedal cycles and e-scooters may be carried on trains provided that they are similar in size to a traditional cycle or scooter.

So it is either a training issue, or could be local rules not publically announced. It seems that illegal (bodged) bikes will look that way and could be refused, good ones should be no problem.

I still think it is probably staff taking it upon themselves to apply the e-scooter rule to all 2-wheeled transport though.