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First ETCS train operates on the East Coast Mainline

najaB

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Apologies if this has already been discussed, I did look but didn't see a thread.

On Sunday, 2 June, Great Northern operated a Class 717 electric multiple unit using European Train Control System (ETCS).

This digital train protection system sends signalling information straight to the driver's in-cab screen, removing the need for trackside signals.

The introduction of digital signalling to the East Coast Main Line is a project being undertaken by the East Coast Digital Programme (ECDP), a partnership of rail operators and Siemens Mobility.

Good to see that the project is coming along. Funnily enough, the apparent lack of progress came up as a topic of discussion with @NorthOxonian and @bravesirrobin on Sunday when we saw the Network Rail liveried Class 313 at the East Fife Heritage Railway yard.
 
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Ediswan

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zwk500

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Was this in normal traffic, or during a possession?
I don't know, apologies. I'm not involved with the ETCS digital programme in any way.
The local news said:
Running in the early hours of sunday could still be inside or outside a possession. RTT doesn't show anything at Hitchin Scheduled between about 0100 and 0700 last sunday morning though.
 

cf111

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I don't know, apologies. I'm not involved with the ETCS digital programme in any way.

Running in the early hours of sunday could still be inside or outside a possession. RTT doesn't show anything at Hitchin Scheduled between about 0100 and 0700 last sunday morning though.
Would RTT's data feeds provide information on anything running on ETCS that isn't already in the timetable?
 

ST156

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There was an ECS move from Hornsey to Welwyn Garden City on Saturday night and a return on Sunday morning, Headcodes 5Q98 and 5Q99.

I can't confirm, but expect these may have been positioning moves to get the train in place for testing.


 

zwk500

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Would RTT's data feeds provide information on anything running on ETCS that isn't already in the timetable?
If the lines were open, the train would need a schedule in TRUST which RTT would almost certainly pick up. The 5Q98/5Q99 schedules provided in post #7 suggest there was a possession between Welwyn and Hitchin.
 

cf111

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If the lines were open, the train would need a schedule in TRUST which RTT would almost certainly pick up. The 5Q98/5Q99 schedules provided in post #7 suggest there was a possession between Welwyn and Hitchin.
Thank you.
 

snowball

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Network Rail's plans (except in Scotland) seem to be dependent on ETCS eventually becoming cheaper and less resource-hungry than conventional resignalling, but how long will that take to happen?
 

najaB

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Network Rail's plans (except in Scotland) seem to be dependent on ETCS eventually becoming cheaper and less resource-hungry than conventional resignalling, but how long will that take to happen?
If you consider ETCS Level 3 then how could it not be? Lights on sticks and the wires, electronics boxes and electricity needed to make them work don't come cheap.
 

takno

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Network Rail's plans (except in Scotland) seem to be dependent on ETCS eventually becoming cheaper and less resource-hungry than conventional resignalling, but how long will that take to happen?
I think the short answer to that is likely to be "slowly and then all at once". Proving it on a mixed-use mainline is huge. From an operational perspective so much of what we've been doing up to now has been overlaying silicon on working processes and safety rules which could still be done with levers and paper.
 

zwk500

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Network Rail's plans (except in Scotland) seem to be dependent on ETCS eventually becoming cheaper and less resource-hungry than conventional resignalling, but how long will that take to happen?
It will speed up as training, deployment, familiarity, experience and availability continue to roll out. And that applies for design, installation and operation of the systems.
 

Bald Rick

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Network Rail's plans (except in Scotland) seem to be dependent on ETCS eventually becoming cheaper and less resource-hungry than conventional resignalling, but how long will that take to happen?

From the Signalling Enginering perspective, it already is, and considerably so AIUI.

The big cost is the transition of legacy rolling stock and crew training.
 

snowball

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If you consider ETCS Level 3 then how could it not be? Lights on sticks and the wires, electronics boxes and electricity needed to make them work don't come cheap.
But the ECML introduction (with still no schedule for north of Grantham) involves vast expenditure on first-in-class adaptation of numerous haulage types, training of drivers, elaborate cooperation and information sharing between Network Rail, traction owners and operators on a scale never before seen, and one type of testing after another after another. Eventually it will settle down but it's reasonable to wonder how long this will take, and how overdue resignalling in some parts of the country will have become by then.
 

12LDA28C

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But the ECML introduction (with still no schedule for north of Grantham) involves vast expenditure on first-in-class adaptation of numerous haulage types, training of drivers, elaborate cooperation and information sharing between Network Rail, traction owners and operators on a scale never before seen, and one type of testing after another after another. Eventually it will settle down but it's reasonable to wonder how long this will take, and how overdue resignalling in some parts of the country will have become by then.

I'm willing to bet that I won't see ETCS in operation on all, or even most lines nationwide within my lifetime, purely due to the astronomical cost involved.
 

zwk500

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But the ECML introduction (with still no schedule for north of Grantham) involves vast expenditure on first-in-class adaptation of numerous haulage types, training of drivers, elaborate cooperation and information sharing between Network Rail, traction owners and operators on a scale never before seen, and one type of testing after another after another.
The advantage of taking a big plunge is that once you've done it, you've got a solid base from which to build further elements. It has to start somewhere.
Eventually it will settle down but it's reasonable to wonder how long this will take, and how overdue resignalling in some parts of the country will have become by then.
Further delaying ETCS in favour of conventional resignallings would only slow it down.

It's worth noting that the UK's not the only country having trouble rolling out ETCS (e.g. Netherlands and Germany), but that it is slowly gathering pace on continental europe, especially on high-speed rail.
 
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snowball

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I suppose when the first colour light signalling was installed, people said "nobody alive today will live to see it cover the whole network", and they would have been right.
 

MarkyT

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I suppose when the first colour light signalling was installed, people said "nobody alive today will live to see it cover the whole network", and they would have been right.
When I started in the WR signalling drawing office in the early 80s, an old engineer said management had assured them the last mechanical box would be gone before the end of the 1970s!

The advantage of taking a big plunge is that once you've done it, you've got a solid base from which to build further elements. It has to start somewhere.

Further delaying ETCS in favour of conventional resignallings would only slow it down.

It's worth noting that the UK's not the only country having trouble rolling out ETCS (e.g. Netherlands and Germany), but that it is slowly gathering pace on continental europe, especially on high-speed rail.
In both cases those nations have a widespread and effective train protection system already (ATB in Netherlands and PZB (Indusi) and LZB in Germany), just as the UK has TPWS/AWS. There's little safety benefit in renewing signalling early just to get ATP protection but renewal dates need to be tweaked to get useful line of route coverage. The rolling stock fleets also need equipping, and certain older fleets allowed to retire before the new system goes live. I think the industry has been wise to delay implementation to allow supplier capability to build and systems to become mature technology. The Dutch ATB limited supervision system was changed to using digital eurobalises in recent decades on new installations, a measure seen as part of a migration path towards ETCS. Germany plans to use a mixture of Level 2 and Level 1 LS mainly on international freight corridors for interoperability and in many cases lines will be dual-fitted with legacy systems for fallback and some remaining non ETCS-equipped trains. resignalling schemes for some decades now in UK have all been specified to be 'ETCS-ready', which mainly means using processor-based interlockings that can be interfaced easily to radio block centre equipment when the time comes.
 
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zwk500

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When I started in the WR signalling drawing office in the early 80s, an old engineer said management had assured them the last mechanical box would be gone before the end of the 1970s!
ISTR Network Rail publishing it's ROC plan with the last box closing in 2050, which we are some way off now!
In both cases those nations have a widespread and effective train protection system already (ATB in Netherlands and PZB (Indusi) and LZB in Germany), just as the UK has TPWS/AWS. There's little safety benefit in renewing signalling early just to get ATP protection but renewal dates need to be tweaked to get useful line of route coverage. The rolling stock fleets also need equipping, and certain older fleets allowed to retire before the new system goes live. I think the industry has been wise to delay implementation to allow supplier capability to build and systems to become mature technology.
All of this is true, although those two countries were just examples where they already have ETCS deployed but are struggling with wider roll-outs, just as Network Rail is. I haven't followed international coverage closely enough to know if any of the countries with ETCS already running or planned have faced problems, and whether problems are confined to upgraded lines rather than new-builds.
The Dutch ATB limited supervision system was changed to using digital eurobalises in recent decades on new installations, a measure seen as part of a migration path towards ETCS. Germany plans to use a mixture of Level 2 and Level 1 LS mainly on international freight corridors for interoperability and in many cases lines will be dual-fitted with legacy systems for fallback and some remaining non ETCS-equipped trains. resignalling schemes for some decades now in UK have all been specified to be 'ETCS-ready', which mainly means using processor-based interlockings that can be interfaced easily to radio block centre equipment when the time comes.
It's been interesting to read at various points about the different strategies for deployment and hybrid or in-between levels, including the UK's ETCS L2 Overlay on conventional signals.
 

Pep and co

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Could this mean 387101 might be heading back to Great Northern to join in the trial of ETCS?
 

Lucy1501

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ISTR Network Rail publishing it's ROC plan with the last box closing in 2050, which we are some way off now!
The ROC plan in its original form no longer exists. There’s multiple other boxes that are being retained as the ROCs aren’t big enough and resignalling to them is too expensive. Additionally, most LOMs have been instructed to maintain their mechanical boxes as if they’ll be around for the next 20-30 years at least.
 

edwin_m

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If you consider ETCS Level 3 then how could it not be? Lights on sticks and the wires, electronics boxes and electricity needed to make them work don't come cheap.
We're only talking Level 2 only here, so much of the lineside equipment is still needed for train detection and the operation of points. The detection part would mostly disappear with Level 3, which I guess NR will consider adopting if it becomes mainstream.
I'm willing to bet that I won't see ETCS in operation on all, or even most lines nationwide within my lifetime, purely due to the astronomical cost involved.
It doesn't make sense to replace conventional signalling before it is life-expired, either from a cost point of view or considering the relatively small number of technical staff who are yet familiar with it. So yes, the transition will take many decades.
But the ECML introduction (with still no schedule for north of Grantham) involves vast expenditure on first-in-class adaptation of numerous haulage types, training of drivers, elaborate cooperation and information sharing between Network Rail, traction owners and operators on a scale never before seen, and one type of testing after another after another. Eventually it will settle down but it's reasonable to wonder how long this will take, and how overdue resignalling in some parts of the country will have become by then.
On the section south of Peterborough virtually all passenger stock is modern and was designed for easy upgrade to ETCS. I believe IC225 has gone by the time this area converts to ETCS with no signals. Unless it's changed recently the intention is to keep the signals between Peterborough and Stoke, thus avoiding having to fit things like 170s and the EMR 158s which I imagine the signalling people hope will have gone before they fit ETCS in the other areas they operate in. There's relatively little freight south of Peterborough, but what there is will need to be managed closely to ensure it has a fitted locomotive, until all locos are fitted.
 

jon0844

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I'm willing to bet that I won't see ETCS in operation on all, or even most lines nationwide within my lifetime, purely due to the astronomical cost involved.

It isn't going to be switched on all at once. It will start with (south of) WGC to Hitchin, then King's Cross to WGC, then Hitchin to Biggleswade - and on from there.

Drivers who sign 717s will already be using ETCS into Moorgate, and I am sure there will be a planned training programme and for some time both signalling systems will co-exist, so drivers can either switch over or use conventional signalling until more and more trains/drivers are ready.
 

OscarH

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It isn't going to be switched on all at once. It will start with (south of) WGC to Hitchin, then King's Cross to WGC, then Hitchin to Biggleswade - and on from there.

Drivers who sign 717s will already be using ETCS into Moorgate, and I am sure there will be a planned training programme and for some time both signalling systems will co-exist, so drivers can either switch over or use conventional signalling until more and more trains/drivers are ready.
Am I right in thinking the Thameslink Core ETCS training program is still dragging on with many drivers using the conventional signals?
 

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