Class 221 for Grand Central

[jus363]

Well you learn some thing new ever day, i didn't know Grand Central now had booked stops at Peterborough.

 

[Mordac]

Well you learn some thing new ever day, i didn't know Grand Central now had booked stops at Peterborough.

They just started in January I think.

 

[James Kevill]

How many months are the Class 221 operating by Grand Central? I think it started in 2023.

 

[45076]

Does anyone have the correct formations for the GC operated units please?

 

[Mgameing123]

My guess would be that the first 2 will head over earlier to allow for crew training and competence retention, until the rest can join

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2023 ==



XC undeniably needs more trains, and this opportunity is gone, but really what XC needs is bimodes, not more diesels

It would be better to give XC some half life diesels. Its better the 222's get used than get scrapped midlife.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Does anyone have the correct formations for the GC operated units please?

I believe they are:

221142: 60392 60992 60792 60492
221143: 60393 60993 60793 60493

 

[43096]

I believe they are:

221142: 60392 60992 60792 60492
221143: 60393 60993 60793 60493

They are five car units, not four…

 

[CR165022]

I believe they are:

221142: 60392 60992 60792 60492
221143: 60393 60993 60793 60493

The last few 221s have coaches from other units, I think they are as follows:

142: 60392, 60992, 60986, 60792, 60492
143: 60393, 60993, 60994, 60793, 60493

 

[sprinterguy]

I believe they are:

221142: 60392 60992 60792 60492
221143: 60393 60993 60793 60493

So far as I'm aware (and certainly according to the GC website), they're still operating as 5-car sets:

221142: 60392 60992 60986 60792 60492
221143: 60393 60993 60994 60793 60493

 

[45076]

So far as I'm aware (and certainly according to the GC website), they're still operating as 5-car sets:

221142: 60392 60992 60986 60792 60492
221143: 60393 60993 60994 60793 60493

Thanks Sprinterguy.

 

[Wyrleybart]

How many months are the Class 221 operating by Grand Central? I think it started in 2023.

I believe it was a temporary 12 month arrangement in order to catch up with a backlog of work on the class 180 fleet.
Last time I looked there were just two centre cars swapped now - cars 56903 and 56906 IIRC which is a huge improvement from last year.

Just guessing that if XC need 12 of the ex AWC 221s then 142 and 143 might be two of them.

 

[James Kevill]

I believe it was a temporary 12 month arrangement in order to catch up with a backlog of work on the class 180 fleet.
Last time I looked there were just two centre cars swapped now - cars 56903 and 56906 IIRC which is a huge improvement from last year.

Just guessing that if XC need 12 of the ex AWC 221s then 142 and 143 might be two of them.

Ok, so the two Class 221 units 221142 and 221143 will be operated by Grand Central temporally for 12 months until the problems for the Class 180 Adelantes are solved. And 221142 and 221143 might probably be transferred to CrossCountry Trains to join the 36 Class 221 Super Voyager units, and there also might be possibility that these two units will be reformed back into 4 carriages, 221136 and 221140 will be reformed back into 5 carriages and 221144 will have it's own carriages back just like when they used to be operated by Virgin Trains. And as for the 6 Class 221 Super Voyager units, they either be stored away or to be operated by Grand Union or to be transferred to CrossCountry to join the other Class 221 units and CrossCountry will have total of 44 units as a uniform fleet.

 

[JonathanH]

And 221142 and 221143 might probably be transferred to CrossCountry Trains to join the 36 Class 221 Super Voyager units, and there also might be possibility that these two units will be reformed back into 4 carriages, 221136 and 221140 will be reformed back into 5 carriages and 221144 will have it's own carriages back just like when they used to be operated by Virgin Trains

It is probable that they wouldn't be reformed back to the original formations. CrossCountry are only taking on 12 of the 20 Avanti 221s in any case, the seven announced initially, and a further five announced more recently.

While it may be an enthusiast desire to have units back in their original formations, it isn't necessarily what happens.

 

[YorksLad12]

It is probable that they wouldn't be reformed back to the original formations. CrossCountry are only taking on 12 of the 20 Avanti 221s in any case, the seven announced initially, and a further five announced more recently.

While it may be an enthusiast desire to have units back in their original formations, it isn't necessarily what happens.

Indeed. A five-car minimum XC offering would be a step up on the NE-SW route via Leeds, with the four-car sets used for peak strengthening. Have caught a 10-car set twice recently (including this evening) where the rear-most coach was locked out of use, so 2x5 seems to be overkill.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Does anyone know when the lease is set to expire?

 

[Trainman40083]

Indeed. A five-car minimum XC offering would be a step up on the NE-SW route via Leeds, with the four-car sets used for peak strengthening. Have caught a 10-car set twice recently (including this evening) where the rear-most coach was locked out of use, so 2x5 seems to be overkill.

Ah well, a ten car is too long for some of the platforms, and hence coaches get locked out.

 

[4630]

Does anyone know when the lease is set to expire?

According to a piece in the July 2024 issue of Modern Railways on page 13,

”The initial one-year lease on the ‘221s’ ends in July, but GC is discussing an extension for a further 12 months…”

 

[Royston Vasey]

According to a piece in the July 2024 issue of Modern Railways on page 13,

”The initial one-year lease on the ‘221s’ ends in July, but GC is discussing an extension for a further 12 months…”

I like Grand Central and open access in general, but I think it's a damn shame that every single spare 221 isn't going straight to CrossCountry as soon as it's released from the West Coast. The OAOs can acquire 80x or FLIRTs or CAFs or whatever they want to trundle to Bradford, Stirling and Carmarthen, or hammer to Edinburgh. This is what Lumo have done, and what HT did originally with 222s and then again with 802s.

The 221s should be treated as a national asset and placed where they are sorely needed on core routes, some of which are still missing or curtailed since COVID, before being released to prop up GC's 180 fleet. Perhaps the next government will commit the remaining handful to XC in short order but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[trainswitheddy]

I like Grand Central and open access in general, but I think it's a damn shame that every single spare 221 isn't going straight to CrossCountry as soon as it's released from the West Coast. The OAOs can acquire 80x or FLIRTs or CAFs or whatever they want to trundle to Bradford, Stirling and Carmarthen, or hammer to Edinburgh. This is what Lumo have done, and what HT did originally with 222s and then again with 802s.

The 221s should be treated as a national asset and placed where they are sorely needed on core routes, some of which are still missing or curtailed since COVID, before being released to prop up GC's 180 fleet. Perhaps the next government will commit the remaining handful to XC in short order but I'm not holding my breath.

While I agree that XC passengers deserve the capacity 100%, don't Grand Centrals also? Regardless, I agree that the rest should absolutely go to XC

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2024 ==

According to a piece in the July 2024 issue of Modern Railways on page 13,

”The initial one-year lease on the ‘221s’ ends in July, but GC is discussing an extension for a further 12 months…”

That's interesting. I hope they stay as I rather like the livery on them, I wonder how the staff feel about it.

 

[Trainman40083]

While I agree that XC passengers deserve the capacity 100%, don't Grand Centrals also? Regardless, I agree that the rest should absolutely go to XC

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2024 ==


That's interesting. I hope they stay as I rather like the livery on them, I wonder how the staff feel about it.

Regrettably, the DfT is determining what /how many units, Cross Country can have. So even if they wanted them all, they couldn't

 

[357]

The 221s should be treated as a national asset and placed where they are sorely needed on core routes, some of which are still missing or curtailed since COVID, before being released to prop up GC's 180 fleet. Perhaps the next government will commit the remaining handful to XC in short order but I'm not holding my breath.

But they aren't. They are vehicles owned by a private business who wants to maximise revenue from their assets.

No point worrying about GC having two voyagers when there will be other Avanti voyagers rotting in a field as nobody wants to pay for them, including XC.

 

[Royston Vasey]

But they aren't. They are vehicles owned by a private business who wants to maximise revenue from their assets.

No point worrying about GC having two voyagers when there will be other Avanti voyagers rotting in a field as nobody wants to pay for them, including XC.

XC have nothing to do with it, we're talking about government policy.

 

[357]

XC have nothing to do with it, we're talking about government policy.

Yes, I should have known someone would pick up on my wording.

XC isn't being given the money by Government to pay for any more Voyagers than they have already been given.

 

[Wyrleybart]

But they aren't. They are vehicles owned by a private business who wants to maximise revenue from their assets.

No point worrying about GC having two voyagers when there will be other Avanti voyagers rotting in a field as nobody wants to pay for them, including XC.

Not sure that is strictly correct. AFAIK XC are getting 12 of the 20 ex Avanti 221s, but for the nect couple of years the whole XC voyager fleet is having a refurb so the ex Avanti units support operations during this period.

As for the other 8 class 221s, I believe they will be owned by Alstom who clearly have plans for them else they wouldn't be buying them. Alstom are to partner and run the WSMR2 operation out of Euston so not sure how many they will need. I am expecting that if the Grand Union operations ever become a real deal then they will want 221s for the Stirling-Euston and Paddington-Carmarthen operations, but Grand Central are also talking about expansion. They couldn't do it by handing back the 221s and relying on the tired and troublesome Coradias.

I don't personally see the Grand Union plans being anything other than dreams, but Alstom must know their markets.

 

[Trainman40083]

Not sure that is strictly correct. AFAIK XC are getting 12 of the 20 ex Avanti 221s, but for the nect couple of years the whole XC voyager fleet is having a refurb so the ex Avanti units support operations during this period.

As for the other 8 class 221s, I believe they will be owned by Alstom who clearly have plans for them else they wouldn't be buying them. Alstom are to partner and run the WSMR2 operation out of Euston so not sure how many they will need. I am expecting that if the Grand Union operations ever become a real deal then they will want 221s for the Stirling-Euston and Paddington-Carmarthen operations, but Grand Central are also talking about expansion. They couldn't do it by handing back the 221s and relying on the tired and troublesome Coradias.

I don't personally see the Grand Union plans being anything other than dreams, but Alstom must know their markets.

Don't forget that planned Cardiff to Edinburgh? service via Derby.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Not sure that is strictly correct. AFAIK XC are getting 12 of the 20 ex Avanti 221s, but for the nect couple of years the whole XC voyager fleet is having a refurb so the ex Avanti units support operations during this period.

As for the other 8 class 221s, I believe they will be owned by Alstom who clearly have plans for them else they wouldn't be buying them. Alstom are to partner and run the WSMR2 operation out of Euston so not sure how many they will need. I am expecting that if the Grand Union operations ever become a real deal then they will want 221s for the Stirling-Euston and Paddington-Carmarthen operations, but Grand Central are also talking about expansion. They couldn't do it by handing back the 221s and relying on the tired and troublesome Coradias.

I don't personally see the Grand Union plans being anything other than dreams, but Alstom must know their markets.

This is my issue - a long depreciated asset which would be of enormous benefit to the public railway's strategic routes, hoarded for a niche project with dubious economics and value add. But it was ever thus since privatisation.

@357 Indeed, as I know you know, this is all a matter of government policy, but there is nothing as changeable as government policy. I would simply like those units placed where they can do most good - I realise that this is an aspiration.

It remains to be seen what nationalisation under Labour really entails, if they are elected on Thursday. I don't see it looking much different to now, including OAOs and the pseudo-free market dynamics of ROSCO financing/profiteering. I am not blind to the established financial realities of rolling stock ownership and leasing.

 

[D365]

… but Grand Central are also talking about expansion. They couldn't do it by handing back the 221s and relying on the tired and troublesome Coradias.

However if Grand Central is wanting to replace their Class 180s on ECML, they will be needing units with ETCS fitted and commissioned. Unless a Class 22x ETCS [Level 2] fitment is in the works, this will invariably mean buying new.

 

[James Kevill]

If the 2 Class 221 Super Voyager units are withdrawn from Grand Central and stored away, they could have the center carriage removed, so the 2 Class 221 units 221136 and 221140 could have their own carriages back, and in turn the unit 221144 would have it's own carriages back.

 

[Wolfie]

If the 2 Class 221 Super Voyager units are withdrawn from Grand Central and stored away, they could have the center carriage removed, so the 2 Class 221 units 221136 and 221140 could have their own carriages back, and in turn the unit 221144 would have it's own carriages back.

Given that various items are on a unit maintenance cycle why, other than "neatness", would they waste money doing that?

 

[357]

Given that various items are on a unit maintenance cycle why, other than "neatness", would they waste money doing that?

Because people like the numbers to match up?