Railcard discounts to be reduced to 33.4%

[UKRailInsider]

National Railcard Discounts are being changed from 34% to 33.4%, apparently.

Assume this is to make more money, cheeky.

 

[skyhigh]

Do you have a source for that?

 

[UKRailInsider]

RDG

 

[Somewhere]

RDG

Link?

 

[superkopite]

My understanding, and I may be incorrect, has always been that the advertised discount should always be 33% but the applied discount 34%. This is to take into account the few scenarios where rounding rules meant that at least 33% could not be achieved by applying a 33% discount and so 34% was applied instead. Perhaps RDG have concluded that the risk can be mitigated by applying a 33.4% discount instead and still keeping all parties happy and legal, as well as saving money for the industry. All speculation on my part. I have zero inside knowledge here

 

[Haywain]

My understanding, and I may be incorrect, has always been that the advertised discount should always be 33% but the applied discount 34%. This is to take into account the few scenarios where rounding rules meant that at least 33% could not be achieved by applying a 33% discount and so 34% was applied instead. Perhaps RDG have concluded that the risk can be mitigated by applying a 33.4% discount instead and still keeping all parties happy and legal, as well as saving money for the industry. All speculation on my part. I have zero inside knowledge here

It was, originally at least, always advertised as a third off and that meant that 33% wouldn’t be enough, hence 34%. So, it seems a lower number will work although rounding (up) rules could achieve a similar result.

 

[OscarH]

My understanding, and I may be incorrect, has always been that the advertised discount should always be 33% but the applied discount 34%. This is to take into account the few scenarios where rounding rules meant that at least 33% could not be achieved by applying a 33% discount and so 34% was applied instead. Perhaps RDG have concluded that the risk can be mitigated by applying a 33.4% discount instead and still keeping all parties happy and legal, as well as saving money for the industry. All speculation on my part. I have zero inside knowledge here

The advertised discount is mostly 1/3 never 33%, though 34% is mentioned in several places. Due to the way the rounding rules work (these days at least, they're nice and simple) there isn't an issue in principle that you'd ever discount less than the specified percentage (eg if you advertised 33% you could use 33% for calculations), the reason for 34% (or 33.4%) is because you cannot encode 1/3 in the data, only a percentage up to 1dp

 

[superkopite]

It was, originally at least, always advertised as a third off and that meant that 33% wouldn’t be enough, hence 34%. So, it seems a lower number will work although rounding (up) rules could achieve a similar result.

The advertised discount is mostly 1/3 never 33%, though 34% is mentioned in several places. Due to the way the rounding rules work (these days at least, they're nice and simple) there isn't an issue in principle that you'd ever discount less than the specified percentage (eg if you advertised 33% you could use 33% for calculations), the reason for 34% (or 33.4%) is because you cannot encode 1/3 in the data, only a percentage up to 1dp

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification, that makes sense. I was nearly right

 

[MrJeeves]

Given that the official NRE site advertised 34% off until this week (indication that this probably is going to happen), are RDG going to be providing compensation for customers who no longer wish to have their Railcard? In a hypothetical scenario below (RDG-PAD), someone is now going to be paying just over the cost of two additional Railcards per year as a result of this change...

NRE page now: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/anytime-tickets-terms-and-conditions/
NRE page last Friday: https://web.archive.org/web/2024062...tickets/anytime-tickets-terms-and-conditions/

For context, some ticket price changes that will apply if this is the case...

Brighton to London Anytime Day Return (Thameslink Only):
Non-discounted: £52.60
34% off: £34.70
33.4% off: £35.00 (+30p)

Day trip to York, booked 1 week out:

Non-discounted: £106.60 + £27.30 = £133.90
34% off: £70.35 + £18.00 = £88.35
33.4% off: £70.95 + £18.15 = £89.10 (+75p)

Reading to Paddington Anytime Day Return:
Non-discounted: £58.00
34% off: £38.25
33.4% off: £38.60 (+35p)

Sure, it's not a huge change, but it's definitely not negligible. Yet another fare increase through the back door. For someone commuting from Reading to Paddington 4 days per week with 5 working weeks off per year, that's still an increase of £65.80.

 

[ainsworth74]

Sure, it's not a huge change, but it's definitely not negligible. Yet another fare increase through the back door. For someone commuting from Reading to Paddington 4 days per week with 5 working weeks off per year, that's still an increase of £65.80.

It's quite clever really. The change is quite small, an extra 35p here, the odd extra 75p there, on some fares it'll be even less maybe just 10p or so. The individual passenger will hardly notice, in most cases, the difference.

But across the thousands and thousands of fares sold with a railcard discount it will add up to a significant chunk of extra revenue.

Very clever, very sneaky.

 

[Haywain]

are RDG going to be providing compensation

You know the answer to that.

for customers who no longer wish to have their Railcard? In a hypothetical scenario below (RDG-PAD), someone is now going to be paying just over the cost of two additional Railcards per year as a result of this change...

Are they really going to forego the railcard because the saving is a little lower than they had expected? And pay an extra £3647 in the process?

 

[MrJeeves]

Are they really going to forego the railcard because the saving is a little lower than they had expected? And pay an extra £3647 in the process?

It's definitely unlikely, but still possible.

Someone could have bought a 3 year Railcard for their commute, but now these changes could mean that the cost of a 7 day season is seen as better value than buying individual tickets for their commute.

 

[Watershed]

On the one hand, this change simply brings the discount in line with the "third off" that most people have long perceived it to be, and which has been used in a lot of advertising materials (no doubt this is the argument RDG will put forward when approached for comment by the press).

However, it is still a breach of contract to only provide a 33.4% discount when 34% was advertised at the time of buying the Railcard. The figure of 34% was also used on some advertising until recently, so it's not like it is some obscure detail.

It won't be worthwhile for most people to bring a case because the amount they will be "overcharged" by will be pennies, and unfortunately it's unlikely there will be any comeback on a wider scale, as class actions aren't usually available for "garden variety" breaches of contract such as this. Nevertheless for frequent rail passengers, and especially those with multi-year Railcards that still have some validity left to run, it may be worthwhile bringing a claim against RDG.

 

[MrJeeves]

Nevertheless for frequent rail passengers, and especially those with multi-year Railcards that still have some validity left to run, it may be worthwhile bringing a claim against RDG.

Can't wait to submit my claim of £23 in two years' time

 

[miklcct]

as class actions aren't usually available for "garden variety" breaches of contract such as this.

How does this different from the class action lawsuits on GTR brands and Boundary Fares? I spend thousands on rail fares and a 0.6% difference can add up to dozens of pounds already.

 

[Watershed]

How does this different from the class action lawsuits on GTR brands and Boundary Fares? I spend thousands on rail fares and a 0.6% difference can add up to dozens of pounds already.

They qualify for class actions because the cases centre on alleged 'abuses of dominant position' under competition and consumer law. Much though I find this move disappointing, I am unconvinced that the facts make out such an abuse here - it seems to be nothing more or less than a breach of contract. The real question is whether you could get a group litigation funder interested, and given the small amounts at stake I suspect the answer is 'no'.

 

[Haywain]

On the one hand, this change simply brings the discount in line with the "third off" that most people have long perceived it to be, and which has been used in a lot of advertising materials (no doubt this is the argument RDG will put forward when approached for comment by the press).

I would say the greater concern is that making this change and only referring to "a discount" might open the door to further changes (for the worse) in the future.

 

[island]

They qualify for class actions because the cases centre on alleged 'abuses of dominant position' under competition and consumer law. Much though I find this move disappointing, I am unconvinced that the facts make out such an abuse here - it seems to be nothing more or less than a breach of contract. The real question is whether you could get a group litigation funder interested, and given the small amounts at stake I suspect the answer is 'no'.

I think this is a good summary.

 

[Deerfold]

I would say the greater concern is that making this change and only referring to "a discount" might open the door to further changes (for the worse) in the future.

I was surprised to see, as part of the upgrade to Huddersfield station some old posters were uncovered, including adverts for the Senior Railcard and its 50% discount.

 

[KMackay3]

They qualify for class actions because the cases centre on alleged 'abuses of dominant position' under competition and consumer law. Much though I find this move disappointing, I am unconvinced that the facts make out such an abuse here - it seems to be nothing more or less than a breach of contract. The real question is whether you could get a group litigation funder interested, and given the small amounts at stake I suspect the answer is 'no'.

I would have thought you'd have to prove that the publicly advertised discount was "34%" not 1/3 at the time of purchase. Changing the % to a figure still above "1/3" sounds perfectly legal as "1/3" would be 33.33333333[...]%

 

[800Travel]

Well that's sneaky of them. Are they going to email railcard customers (who purchased online, so emails are given)?

 

[MrJeeves]

I would have thought you'd have to prove that the publicly advertised discount was "34%" not 1/3 at the time of purchase. Changing the % to a figure still above "1/3" sounds perfectly legal as "1/3" would be 33.33333333[...]%

It was.

Given that the official NRE site advertised 34% off until this week (indication that this probably is going to happen) [...]

NRE page now: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/anytime-tickets-terms-and-conditions/
NRE page last Friday: https://web.archive.org/web/2024062...tickets/anytime-tickets-terms-and-conditions/

 

[Haywain]

I was surprised to see, as part of the upgrade to Huddersfield station some old posters were uncovered, including adverts for the Senior Railcard and its 50% discount.

I remember the Student Railcard (as it was) having a 50% discount rate.

 

[John R]

I remember the Student Railcard (as it was) having a 50% discount rate.

And was restricted to those in further or higher education IIRC.

 

[Haywain]

And was restricted to those in further or higher education IIRC.

Initially, but it was still 50% when the railcard became available to non-students (under 24, I think) without a name change.

 

[Watershed]

Well that's sneaky of them. Are they going to email railcard customers (who purchased online, so emails are given)?

As if!

They are going to try to brush this under the carpet and pretend it's not happening. When forced to admit it, they'll say it's to "be fairer to the taxpayer" or something along those lines.

 

[Vexed]

It would be impossible to hide. People will have been paying the same since the April fares rise and any change would be noticed.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Whilst they're looking at this, I wonder whether it's crossed their mind that another source of untapped additional revenue is to adjust the rounding rules - at the moment fares obviously round to the nearest 5p or 10p - but making a £9.95 fare £9.99 would be easy enough. The old arguement around carrying copper change at ticket offices / slowing down giving change is largely moot now that card payments dominate.

Incidentally there are other proposals which haven't leaked yet - which affect Railcard discounts. Probably for an announcement once the election has settled.

 

[Somewhere]

They should never have advertised 34%. Railcards were always a third off. 34% was to prevent anyone getting less than a third due to rounding
Just goes to show the industry is full of people who don't know what they're doing

 

[Wallsendmag]

Whilst they're looking at this, I wonder whether it's crossed their mind that another source of untapped additional revenue is to adjust the rounding rules - at the moment fares obviously round to the nearest 5p or 10p - but making a £9.95 fare £9.99 would be easy enough. The old arguement around carrying copper change at ticket offices / slowing down giving change is largely moot now that card payments dominate.

Incidentally there are other proposals which haven't leaked yet - which affect Railcard discounts. Probably for an announcement once the election has settled.

Don't. TVMs don't accept copper, don't have any way of handling copper. My job is hard enough as it is.