£16000 For A Football Special

[sheff'd victoria]

My football team ( Peterborough United ) are at Old Trafford this Sunday in the League 1 play offs.

Peterborough United were in talks with East Midland Trains in hiring a HST to take fans to/from Peterborough to Manchester.

EMT quoted £16000 to be paid up front which works out at around £35 per head

Peterborough United were put off by this figure and have not paid up which has left some fans very upset

Is £16000 the going rate for a special Sunday service ?

Fans will now have to see if the 0952 from Peterborough and the 1820 from Manchester has extra coaches popped on by EMT

 

[GearJammer]

£16,000 does sound alot but when you break it down to £35 a head it seems quite reasonable, what would a standard day return cost between Peterborough and Manchester, id be surprised if its much less than that?

 

[DarloRich]

£35 a pop seems a decent fare to me. (never forgiven Peterborough for Wembley 2000!)

 

[Greenback]

I don't know why that amount put them off! It seems OK for a dedicated train timed to fit in with the game - and a HST too!

 

[Invincibles]

Means selling all the tickets though, and that is quite a big ask at short notice I think.

However, I do like the idea of football specials. A nice pacer for PNE fans going to Bournemouth next season please

 

[Smudger105e]

My football team ( Peterborough United ) are at Old Trafford this Sunday in the League 1 play offs.

Peterborough United were in talks with East Midland Trains in hiring a HST to take fans to/from Peterborough to Manchester.

EMT quoted £16000 to be paid up front which works out at around £35 per head

Peterborough United were put off by this figure and have not paid up which has left some fans very upset

Is £16000 the going rate for a special Sunday service ?

Fans will now have to see if the 0952 from Peterborough and the 1820 from Manchester has extra coaches popped on by EMT

Let's look at the facts (Said in a ridiculous Lloyd Grossman voice lol)

They would have to pay to following for supplying a service
Traincrew (x2) maybe a second traincrew for the return trip.
Stock.
Fuel
Servicing and cleaning of the stock before/after
Network Rail pathways

Plus overhead costs such as planners, traffic controls etc.

tbh, £16 grand does not seem too bad to shift 450 people?

 

[Greenback]

Means selling all the tickets though, and that is quite a big ask at short notice I think.

However, I do like the idea of football specials. A nice pacer for PNE fans going to Bournemouth next season please

If they can't find 450 peterborough United fans to go to Manchester by train, perhaps they don't deserve to be playing at Old Trafford!

 

[Invincibles]

If they can't find 450 peterborough United fans to go to Manchester by train, perhaps they don't deserve to be playing at Old Trafford!

Well I suspect there will be 25000 Peterborough fans there, but many will have sorted their arrangements at the full time whistle in their MK Dons game rather than waiting for this one.

Still if they get there next year they will know the cost... Presumably Wembley would be a similar price to run a train to

 

[tbtc]

If one return trip like this costs £16,000 then I can understand why some TOCs are reluctant to invest in new services...

 

[allticketspls]

Off Peak Return is £66.90 using the times quoted

 

[LexyBoy]

If one return trip like this costs £16,000 then I can understand why some TOCs are reluctant to invest in new services...

That's not the cost to the TOC though, that's the price they are offering it - so including all their margins. Considering the Off Peak Return PBO-MAN is nearly £70, it would only require 50% loading to remain profitable (and doesn't have to use an HST of course).

I'd think the cost of planning and feasibility studies on proposed routes would come into it, plus the fact that even if extra services are profitable, it's peanuts compared to peak services on main routes (which can't be expanded due to lack of stock).

 

[tbtc]

That's not the cost to the TOC though, that's the price they are offering it - so including all their margins. Considering the Off Peak Return PBO-MAN is nearly £70, it would only require 50% loading to remain profitable (and doesn't have to use an HST of course).

I'd think the cost of planning and feasibility studies on proposed routes would come into it, plus the fact that even if extra services are profitable, it's peanuts compared to peak services on main routes (which can't be expanded due to lack of stock).

True, although most companies would want to build margins into any service (not just the net cost).

Whilst I appreciate the cost quoted for this service will be a little higher than the "normal" cost of EMTs Peterborough - Manchester service, its still food for thought if they need 50% of seats to be filled (based on all passengers paying the full Off Peak Return, no concessions/ advance fares etc).

I'd like to see how that £16,000 breaks down (fuel, staff, Network Rail access fees, profit etc)

 

[Cherry_Picker]

How much would it cost to hire the same number of seats as coaches? And assuming that the football fans will be having a beer or three during the day how much extra if you wanted to hire a coach with a toilet? I assume you would need 9 or 10 coaches to take the same number of people as a HST can carry?

 

[LexyBoy]

True, although most companies would want to build margins into any service (not just the net cost).

Whilst I appreciate the cost quoted for this service will be a little higher than the "normal" cost of EMTs Peterborough - Manchester service, its still food for thought if they need 50% of seats to be filled (based on all passengers paying the full Off Peak Return, no concessions/ advance fares etc).

And of course the fact that the TOC will generally only get a portion of the ORCATS revenue from non-AP tickets.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown as you say, and also to know the actual cost of running such a service (obviously that would be rather sensitive information).

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Well I suspect there will be 25000 Peterborough fans there, but many will have sorted their arrangements at the full time whistle in their MK Dons game rather than waiting for this one.

Still if they get there next year they will know the cost... Presumably Wembley would be a similar price to run a train to

No sir, nowhere near!

 

[43167]

Peterborough Utd have made huge error. At the price quoted, then that divided by the trains capacity (464 seats), they were getting a bargin for the supporters. £35 from Peterborough to Manchester, very reasonable. Now the fans going by train will have to pay alot more.

 

[Invincibles]

Really?

Normally a club would reckon to double its' home attendance for a play off final.

PNE almost trebbled theirs for both Cardiff games in 2001 and 2005.

Anyway, £35 only works if the train is full and if you advertise at that you have to sell every seat to break even. No club would take on that sort of risk. (Some of the multinationals that operate in the Premiership might I suppose)

 

[Clip]

Really?

Normally a club would reckon to double its' home attendance for a play off final.

PNE almost trebbled theirs for both Cardiff games in 2001 and 2005.

Anyway, £35 only works if the train is full and if you advertise at that you have to sell every seat to break even. No club would take on that sort of risk. (Some of the multinationals that operate in the Premiership might I suppose)

I remember Chelsea not so long back hired out a loco hauled set from Kings cross to Newcastle for a game...mind they do have money but i think the ticket still wouldve worked out cheaper then getting GNER

 

[Invincibles]

I remember Chelsea not so long back hired out a loco hauled set from Kings cross to Newcastle for a game...mind they do have money but i think the ticket still wouldve worked out cheaper then getting GNER

Well with the sort of income you get from Sky etc it is much easier to risk £16,000 on a train which may end up only bringing in £3500.

Maybe if they had planned far in advance and been quoted the price they could say to supporters at London Road "there will be a train to Manchester" but I think that is the only way it would have worked. Many would not like to be planning that much because of superstition etc.

 

[Clip]

Well with the sort of income you get from Sky etc it is much easier to risk £16,000 on a train which may end up only bringing in £3500.

Maybe if they had planned far in advance and been quoted the price they could say to supporters at London Road "there will be a train to Manchester" but I think that is the only way it would have worked. Many would not like to be planning that much because of superstition etc.

Can never plan with the play offs though thats the problem.You just cant tell.

 

[merlodlliw]

I am sure its nothing to do with it, but I have known a few Companies put
a price, because they did not want the job or the hassle.

Was this the only quote asked for? also you must have the reserves to bankroll in case of non capacity, I do recall W/S putting extras from Shrewsbury at a very competitive price standing any loss themselves,it turned out a great success on that day, but it was a big match.

Pity EMT have no social conscience and run a special themselves,this would install great credibility



Bob

 

[rmt-driver]

Means selling all the tickets though, and that is quite a big ask at short notice I think.

However, I do like the idea of football specials. A nice pacer for PNE fans going to Bournemouth next season please

Nice pacer.. such a thing exists ??

 

[Invincibles]

Peterborough will not play a bigger match for some time than the one on Saturday, so the parallels with Shrewsbury are strong.

However, EMT are not in a position of needing passengers, particularly not from Peterborough to Manchester as that train is already too full. Whether a train from Peterborough would help get passengers on the Lincolnshire routes I do not know, that would be the only incentive I can see for EMT.

 

[tbtc]

Pity EMT have no social conscience and run a special themselves,this would install great credibility

Sorry, you are blaming EMT for not taking the risk themselves? Given that the fixture was only confirmed when the Posh beat MK Dons a few days ago?

 

[theblackwatch]

£16,000 for a charter train is pretty reasonable!

 

[rmt-driver]

Just out of interest.. how much would a Pacer be to Charter for a football game or similar?? 16p :P

 

[northwichcat]

Fans will now have to see if the 0952 from Peterborough and the 1820 from Manchester has extra coaches popped on by EMT

The 09:52 journey option uses East Coast and TPE. The direct trains are 10:26 and 11:11.

All indirect northbound journey options seem to show travelling via Huddersfield rather than via Doncaster, which is unfortunate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pity EMT have no social conscience and run a special themselves,this would install great credibility

East Midlands Trains has announced that it will run an additional service to help Peterborough United football fans get to the League One play-off final against Huddersfield at Old Trafford on Sunday (29 May).

The 1146 Nottingham to Warrington Central service will start from Peterborough at 1026 and arrive at Manchester Piccadilly at 1337. The extra-capacity four-carriage service will provide a boost for spectators heading to the match.

In addition, for fans returning from the game, East Midlands Trains is adding capacity to the 1844 service from Manchester Piccadilly to Norwich by operating four carriages between Manchester and Nottingham to meet extra passenger demand.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/AboutUs/News/Pages/_EastMidlandsTrainstorunextra.aspx

I wonder what'll happen with the 18:44 if they try to split it at Nottingham with 400 still on board!

 

[Invincibles]

Presumably a lot of Posh will be looking to get to Manchester for opening time, which is a bit of a challenge with the trains as I know from my own regular trips from Leicester to Manchester.

I guess there will be a spread of people across different trains in the morning and then depending on the results I expect a few will hang around Manchester city centre.

Football specials do tend to ignore the "whole day" nature of a play off final.

 

[Benno]

Pity EMT have no social conscience and run a special themselves,this would install great credibility

Bob

EMT do run football specials themselves though. These quite often come in the form of a HST and are usually for games played between Derby, Leicester, Forest and the Sheffield teams. Sometimes this is decided by EMT and sometimes it comes as a request from the BTP. Recently EMT started trial running additional weekday services on the Ivanhoe line when the Leicester Tigers played home games. It was only a class 156 but it was timed to coincide with the games start and finish times and enabled fans to get home at a reasonable time.

EMT also have a team who look at events like this and try to strengthen services accordingly. Remember the 7 car 222 going to Liverpool for the Grand National? They look at events and potential passenger flows and try to ensure that trains are strengthened where possible. The playoff finals at Old Trafford will be on the radar but given the short notice of knowing who the finalists are, it doesn't give much time to arrange additional stock.

 

[allticketspls]

Just out of interest.. how much would a Pacer be to Charter for a football game or similar?? 16p :P

11p and a bag of flying saucers for the driver. Mind you, you have to bring your own seat.