£16000 For A Football Special

[Skimble19]

Quite simple, they sell their coaches once they reach 5 years old, then replace them with new ones

 

[jon0844]

But who buys them?

Serious question - if every major bus operator needs new buses, who would be able to buy an old one? What operators are going to end up with ancient buses?

Surely if operators and local authorities begin to demand new fleets, the old ones won't be sold but scrapped.

However, I am of the opinion that a bus should be able to last a bit longer than five years - so clearly they're NOT ancient, but it does seem odd that we've gone from running buses that are millions of years old to fleets of no older than five years!

 

[spionkop64]

It's an interesting debate and one topical for myself. I'm taking a party of 20 from Bradford-Lille next week. To hire a small coach would have been by far the easiest option, but after a bit of digging I managed to get a rail return of roughly £90pp. I could have got this lower had the domestic operators offered bookings further in advance. I ended up in a situation with Eurostar offering great deals, but no bookings released by the domestic operators. Eventually, Grand Central came up trumps and offered a very competative group travel deal. It puts 20/30 minutes into our day, but worth it for the single change of train at London (finger's crossed the 180s behave).

Back to the football theme, earlier this year I travelled to watch Bradford City play at Morecambe (glamour all the way I know) and the trains were ridiculously packed. Northern had been warned and a four car between Lancaster and Morecambe before the game looked like good planning. Afterwards? A 153 on the Morecambe-Lancaster shuttle. Watching around 400 people trying to board it sent me to the nearest pub to wait for the later Morecambe-Leeds, change at Shipley. I thought then, how much it would cost to hire a two car DMU for BDQ-Morecambe return?

 

[northwichcat]

If most bus operators intend to have a young fleet, where do/can they sell them on?

In Cheshire and West Yorkshire (and possibly other areas) some older buses and coaches have had the interiors ripped out, been replaced with high density seating and become designated school buses.

Small bus companies cannot afford the brand new buses so they finish up buying the old ones and running them on village routes and low patronage evening routes.

Companies like First and Stagecoach use some old buses as driving training units and backup/recovery vehicles.

 

[Ostrich]

<nostalgia time>

"Cup-tie football specials formed of a Western region Pullman set have included one from Walsall to Norwich Thorpe on Saturday, February 12, and another from Coventry to Liverpool Lime Street on March 5. It was the first visit of a "Blue Pullman" to Norwich; hire of the 8 coach train cost £1,200." - The Railway Magazine, April 1966, page 232.

Bet there's a few on here who won't remember the Blue Pullmans ..... arguably the first HST !

I wonder what £1,200 equates to in today's money.

 

[ainsworth74]

According to The Bank of England's inflation calculator (see here) £1200 would in 2010 £s be £17400.

 

[Greenback]

So £16000 is not so bad considering! As most of us thought in the first place!

 

[sidmouth]

Just noted that East Coast were unable to procure any coaches in Peterborough on Saturday to run shuttles between Peterborough and Grantham (when the OHL) was down. Why not? Because they were being used to transport Posh fans to Manchester. If rail charters could have been sensibly provided on the Sunday, would coaches have been available to EC on the Saturday? Another railway home goal?

 

[rail-britain]

EMT quoted £16000 to be paid up front which works out at around £35 per head
Is £16000 the going rate for a special Sunday service ?

The day will have very little effect on the cost
The quote is very good
Equally, the fare chargeable can be based on 80% occupancy, the same as most railtours, so a fare of £40 / £60 is more likely (although not sure how many passengers will want First Class)

 

[strange6]

16 grand is bloody good value for money if you ask me!

 

[MCR247]

Just noted that East Coast were unable to procure any coaches in Peterborough on Saturday to run shuttles between Peterborough and Grantham (when the OHL) was down. Why not? Because they were being used to transport Posh fans to Manchester. If rail charters could have been sensibly provided on the Sunday, would coaches have been available to EC on the Saturday? Another railway home goal?

No, not really. How could it have been forseen?
I don't even see how it could be a home goal, it was a pretty reasonable price, was it not?
Or would you prefer them to run it at a loss and putting up normal fares to subsidise it?

What was that? No? Didn't think so

 

[ivanhoe]

So £16000 is not so bad considering! As most of us thought in the first place!

BR use to run there own specials inthe 60's. They were cheap because there were loads of spare carriages and engines available. The Blue Pulman was a 'special ' Football Special which probably was hired out to by the clubs concerned or to a charter company. Believe me. I travelled on Football Specials and they were no Pullman Trains and they were as cheap as chips. You are comparing apples with oranges and I ll say it again that 16K is not cheap and by all means defend the railways, but not their costs!

 

[38Cto15E]

Football specials in the 60s were in abundance, I remember when Leicester City had long FA Cup runs the front of Leicester Midland station was closed for vehicles and there were several queues for different coloured tickets for the many specials.

 

[tbtc]

So £16000 is not so bad considering! As most of us thought in the first place!

...though nobody seems able to have a guess at the breakdown between

• Staff
• Fuel
• "Hire" of train
• Planning required for this "one off" service
• TOC "profit"

Maybe eight National Express coaches use less fuel than an eight coach train, there certainly aren't the "planning" costs involved with coaches. Whilst Coach Drivers earn less money than Train Drivers/ Conductors, you'd need more staff to drive eight coaches than to staff one train.

Hey, maybe we'll never know - I'm sure Stagecoach would cite "confidentiality" if anyone asked for a breakdown (which is fair enough), but I'd love to know how the £16,000 is worked out.

 

[Pumbaa]

Eventually, Grand Central came up trumps and offered a very competative group travel deal. It puts 20/30 minutes into our day, but worth it for the single change of train at London (finger's crossed the 180s behave).

I really really really really hope you have a foolproof back-up plan for this! Have you considered them catching fire? Disappearing before they get to Bradford? Disappearing en-route to London? Not talking to one another? Etc etc?

I hope it goes well

 

[AlterEgo]

...though nobody seems able to have a guess at the breakdown between

• Staff
• Fuel
• "Hire" of train
• Planning required for this "one off" service
• TOC "profit"

Maybe eight National Express coaches use less fuel than an eight coach train, there certainly aren't the "planning" costs involved with coaches. Whilst Coach Drivers earn less money than Train Drivers/ Conductors, you'd need more staff to drive eight coaches than to staff one train.

Hey, maybe we'll never know - I'm sure Stagecoach would cite "confidentiality" if anyone asked for a breakdown (which is fair enough), but I'd love to know how the £16,000 is worked out.

Why would they have to give you a breakdown? It's a private charter from a private company - they can charge what they like.

 

[tbtc]

Why would they have to give you a breakdown? It's a private charter from a private company - they can charge what they like.

Of course they don't have to give me a breakdown.

But if we are complaining about the cost of this quote then I think it'd be interesting to know what makes up that cost. We all know that the railways cost a lot/ more than they used to/ too much, but the debate is tricky unless we know the breakdown of those costs.

 

[Skimble19]

Got to agree with other posters saying the £16000 is a bloody good deal.. sounds a lot at first, but think about how many people that train can transport and it soon starts to sound good.

 

[jon0844]

£35 per head seemed like a bargain for a train to run at a time that suits you (more or less). If the club hadn't been able to sell the tickets for, say £40-50, to cover for some unsold tickets, I'd have been very surprised. They may have even made a nice little profit, which could go back into the club (in case fans felt they'd been ripped off!).

Far more convenient than loads of coaches and all the logistics in making sure every coach is filled correctly. And you can get up and walk around on the train, which isn't so easy on a coach.

Who knows, if some real interest had been shown, the club could have even tried to haggle a bit. In the current climate, I am sure that would have been possible - unless the operator clearly didn't want the business (but if that was the case, pricing something to be £35 a head would have been very risky). It seems the only side not really interested was the club.

 

[DarloRich]

Thats £35 per head in cattle class. You could charge double for first class. I still think this is a very good deal. Perhaps the Posh missed a trick here

( the barstewards still won mind! - STILL Not forgiven them for Wembley 2000)

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course they don't have to give me a breakdown.

But if we are complaining about the cost of this quote then I think it'd be interesting to know what makes up that cost. We all know that the railways cost a lot/ more than they used to/ too much, but the debate is tricky unless we know the breakdown of those costs.

I guess - but I thought £16,000 was a good deal; especially if ithe train is filled.

 

[jon0844]

They didn't have to fill completely it if they inflated the price a little. They could have even thrown in things like a free match programme, or something else with a minimal cost, but a high value. I am sure fans wouldn't argue with £40, £45 or £50 if they got a 'free' £5 or £10 programme and maybe some other souvenirs - as well as travelling in a big group, straight to the door, with no hassle.

People do still value convenience don't they?

The train operator could have also provided food and drink (maybe not booze!) and perhaps come to an agreement to split the profit, or get a further discount if the shop/trolley hit a certain amount.

Finally, to further boost the atmosphere, a representative from the club could have come on to talk to all the fans before and after the game - making it a really good day out (whatever the result!).

Well, that's what I would have done anyway.

 

[Aictos]

I'm surprised that Posh turned down the EMT offer, £35 per person doesn't sound a lot especially as fans will spent much more then that easily on kit ie shirts.

Failing that, why could not the Chairman pay part of the cost unless he's saving the pennies for new players to strengthen the team.

 

[Invincibles]

I still think there are a lot of unknowns and that the timing could have been better.

It is a big advantage of the train that you can drink on board, compared to coaches which must of course be dry. Operating a bar service therefore had the potential to turn a large profit. I expect you could fill all the fridges in the buffet for a football trip.

However, the fact remains that the deal was offered well after Peterborough had qualified and most fans would have already got their tickets (Coach tickets would be sold at the same time as match tickets) so there was a limited potential market remaining.

I do not feel it is particularly the fault of the football club for this one not happening.

 

[northwichcat]

Out of interest would the HST have been sent to Manchester Piccadilly, meaning passengers would have had to buy another ticket for Piccadilly-Old Trafford or would the HST have been squeezed through Deansgate to go to Old Trafford

 

[YorkshireBear]

Out of interest would the HST have been sent to Manchester Piccadilly, meaning passengers would have had to buy another ticket for Piccadilly-Old Trafford or would the HST have been squeezed through Deansgate to go to Old Trafford

on a sunday i think theyd of got it through to old trafford...

 

[AlterEgo]

on a sunday i think theyd of got it through to old trafford...

MUFC Halt won't accommodate a HST though.

 

[northwichcat]

MUFC Halt won't accommodate a HST though.

Loco hauled excursion trains are allowed to call at platforms where the train is too long if clear instructions are given to passengers.

 

[MCR247]

You sure? Trains that do it now do it because of grandfather rights don't they?

 

[northwichcat]

You sure? Trains that do it now do it because of grandfather rights don't they?

A 12 car loco hauled excursion called at Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham a few weeks ago, where the platforms can only take 6 cars.

There are dangers to doing that on a normal passenger service where someone in the 7th carriage may think they are in the front portion and try and alight where there is no platform, especially at night and at some stations there may be a bridge at the end of the platform. If everyone has a seat reservation and it states the carriage they are in on their ticket then passengers should be aware of which carriage they are in.