Lack of ticket checking / scanning on Avanti services

[Carlisle]

Who does splitting/joining for Avanti on Voyagers/80x? I assume it is guards.

Its all Auto couplers unless your referring to a loco attachment due to failure etc .

 

[Trackman]

I'm highly skeptical of the claim revenue training isn't provided. I suspect it's not as comprehensive as many would like (but what's new there?) - but the claim there is no training at all doesn't sound right to me.

At the very least there will be training on cash regulations/handling (how to pay in etc), how to set up ticket equipment (although if they're point blank refusing to use it, perhaps there's no point at the moment?) I also believe there is ORR / RSSB guidance on receiving conflict resolution/management training - although again, best practice is that it is integrated rather than standalone. Avanti TMs also have bodyworn CCTV, so presumably have some level of instruction in how to use it.

I'm pretty sure they also receive food hygiene/handling and first aid training.

Good points. Was trying to not get involved in this.

This is the bit I don't understand.
Poster says they have been with Avanti for just over 12 months, but there is no agreement in place about scanning tickets.
These machines (I think they are Avantix) have been around for at least 3 years if not more.
So, if they bring in new kit, does it have to be passed by the unions first? I'm talking about new recruits, not existing TMs etc..

 

[Carlisle]

That’s incorrect I’m afraid. The RMT has no say on the issue.

Ballot papers usually arrive alongside associated publicity from the union urging support for the proposed campaign but how much difference that makes I’ve no idea .

 

[Rover77]

I'm highly skeptical of the claim revenue training isn't provided. I suspect it's not as comprehensive as many would like (but what's new there?) - but the claim there is no training at all doesn't sound right to me.

At the very least there will be training on cash regulations/handling (how to pay in etc), how to set up ticket equipment (although if they're point blank refusing to use it, perhaps there's no point at the moment?) I also believe there is ORR / RSSB guidance on receiving conflict resolution/management training - although again, best practice is that it is integrated rather than standalone. Avanti TMs also have bodyworn CCTV, so presumably have some level of instruction in how to use it.

I'm pretty sure they also receive food hygiene/handling and first aid training.

I could potentially see a temporary situation where TMs are purely operational in order to get services running (like SWR non commercial guards) - but only as an interim measure whilst recruitment occurs.

Again you are questioning my integrity. As mentioned previously I have picked it up as I go along.
Using the ticket machine, I.e. turning it on and it's actual use, was shown to me when shadowing a peer trainer. Very brief though as we mainly focus on safety critical duties and dispatch. No revenue training at all regarding different types of tickets, excess fairs etc. Just expected to work it out. Which I have on the whole but not the point.
The boby worn cams, no training given other than a sheet of paper handed out on how to operate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

The longer guards courses are generally the ones that are non-compliant with latest ORR guidance and best practices.

For example, take Non-Technical Skills - this for many years, was delivered as standalone training over a couple of days which is now considered very bad practice - and the overall course should have NTS integrated into it, without staff realising they've received specific training on it (if it's done right). There will be several areas like this where technology or a change in training methodology has improved the training, whilst also making it more efficient.

Then consider for some TOCs, such as Avanti there is no training required for Absolute Block, (save for specific staff working Chester/Holyhead), Tokens/Tablets etc. Similarly no need to cover DC electrification for certain depots, e.g. Edinburgh/Glasgow.

Then traction, virtually no engineering/maintenance knowledge is required for faults now - because of the various agreements with the manufacturers, or the fact it's a simple flick of a switch or a reset button before TOC policy says to get help from control.

Shunting and coupling - seriously, which TOC actually uses guards to shunt/couple in 2024? I'm sure there's a handful of depots across the country that need this, but I suspect even the staff that are trained, rarely, if ever, actually use this knowledge. Why would Avanti Train Managers need this knowledge these days? Need to know handsignals, but that's about it.

If you're a Train Manager at Glasgow, only working one traction, Class 390s, only signing Preston-Glasgow and Carlisle-Edinburgh, AC only electrification, modern signalling etc- trains are prepped at Polamdie/depots for you - 4 weeks is probably sufficient for core TM training, a week for Traction, week or two route learning, couple of weeks with a mentor.

A TM at Holyhead would probably be an additional 2-4 weeks given two traction types, Absolute Block signalling, DC electrification, and a more complex core route Holyhead to Chester and then all the way down to Euston, and diversions.

We covered absolute block, use of tokens, pilotmen etc. I sign 3 types of traction. Was 2 when on course. The content hasn't changed, we just fly through it and revenue is totally taken out of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

Its all Auto couplers unless your referring to a loco attachment due to failure etc .

I am talking about loco attachments due to failures

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

I don't know anything about Avanti, so I will take your word on it. But one thing I do want to pick you up on.
Speaking as a GWR train manager, and first group shareholder (acquired through the company sharesaves) . I'm quite interested in the 'maximum profits for shareholders at the expense of staff and customers'. That sounds like the kind of guff that goes around amongst certain members of staff, but isn't based in reality. It's not within first groups ability to siphon off money by cutting corners, even if they wanted to. Might be worth reading up on national rail contracts and seeing how it is they make their money from rail.

Fair point regarding my comments on profit.

 

[Haywain]

Using the ticket machine, I.e. turning it on and it's actual use, was shown to me when shadowing a peer trainer.

You don't seem to understand that that is part of your training, that's why it's delivered by a "peer trainer".

 

[Rover77]

You don't seem to understand that that is part of your training, that's why it's delivered by a "peer trainer".

OMG. Yes, turning the machine on and logging in was sorted out by my peer trainer. I was shown a few other things also ofcourse but this was all down to him . It is not part of the training plan. We did not cover different types to tickets, peak of peak etc.There is no time to do this. It should be a stand alone module of training. This is why there are so many complaints on this forum and others about staff wrongly challenging customers regarding validity of tickets and often mistakenly charging the customer needlessly for a new one. It is due to lack of training and the pressure to sell by those above.
I am not trying tk say the earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese yet it appears my experience is so hard to accept by some people despite numerous instances of staff wrongly charging customers. Anecdotally, others who have had the same training as myself from various depots do not have any confidence at all when doing tickets and often try to avoid if possible e.g. train was barriered at Euston.
Hope me not painting Avanti and Firstgroup in the best light isn't too much for some of you!!!!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Hope me not painting Avanti and Firstgroup in the best light isn't too much for some of you!!!!

This is what I think is the problem here. Whatever you may think about First Group or Avanti - the reality is that whatever decision is made around what training you are or aren't receiving is absolutely nothing to do with them. The Department for Transport will have said you can spend X amount of money on training, you need Y amount of Train Managers by Z date, and so on.

It makes not a blind bit of difference which uniform you are wearing - (unless you are in Merseyside, Wales or Scotland) - you would have pretty much the same experience with any owning group.

Avanti is given an incredibly bad press despite most of the resourcing issues being inherited, DfT mandated or as a result of industrial action (which only the DfT can resolve) and infrastructure issues which, for the most part, are down to Network Rail.

Fleet issues, again, DfT - controlling how much spend on refurbishment, quality etc. First Group just implement what they're told to - even when they suggest enhancements and are told "no".

They're also being used as a political football for nationalisation and other agendas (HS2 etc) - despite most of the issues that Andy Burnham and other politicians complaining about being outside of the control of First Group.

They're far from perfect, but you're on a hiding to nothing if you think it would be better under any other group.

Look at ScotRail today, under direct control of Scottish Government - wholesale removal of trains across their entire network, industrial disputes, staff highly dissatisfied etc.

If you're in the rail industry, and you sound fairly new to it - I'm afraid this is simply how it is - and always will be. You learn to adapt and get on with things, do your job as best you can, make the most of it - and get increasingly large sized uniforms of varying colours and quality as you get older!

 

[Rover77]

This is what I think is the problem here. Whatever you may think about First Group or Avanti - the reality is that whatever decision is made around what training you are or aren't receiving is absolutely nothing to do with them. The Department for Transport will have said you can spend X amount of money on training, you need Y amount of Train Managers by Z date, and so on.

It makes not a blind bit of difference which uniform you are wearing - (unless you are in Merseyside, Wales or Scotland) - you would have pretty much the same experience with any owning group.

Avanti is given an incredibly bad press despite most of the resourcing issues being inherited, DfT mandated or as a result of industrial action (which only the DfT can resolve) and infrastructure issues which, for the most part, are down to Network Rail.

Fleet issues, again, DfT - controlling how much spend on refurbishment, quality etc. First Group just implement what they're told to - even when they suggest enhancements and are told "no".

They're also being used as a political football for nationalisation and other agendas (HS2 etc) - despite most of the issues that Andy Burnham and other politicians complaining about being outside of the control of First Group.

They're far from perfect, but you're on a hiding to nothing if you think it would be better under any other group.

Look at ScotRail today, under direct control of Scottish Government - wholesale removal of trains across their entire network, industrial disputes, staff highly dissatisfied etc.

If you're in the rail industry, and you sound fairly new to it - I'm afraid this is simply how it is - and always will be. You learn to adapt and get on with things, do your job as best you can, make the most of it - and get increasingly large sized uniforms of varying colours and quality as you get older!

Please don't condescend me. I have taken exception at you doubting what I have informed you regarding the level of revenue training I received. I am an enterprising intelligent person and am getting there as I go along. You have questioned what I have told you now you tell me that this is how it is and to get on with it. Why are you such an Avanti fan boy? Staff morale has never been lower, this coming from ex virgin staff with 20 to 30 years experience. I suppose you know better them all of them aswell.
In reality the relationship between senior management as staff is at an all time low.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Please don't condescend me. I have taken exception at you doubting what I have informed you regarding the level of revenue training I received. I am an enterprising intelligent person and am getting there as I go along. You have questioned what I have told you now you tell me that this is how it is and to get on with it. Why are you such an Avanti fan boy? Staff morale has never been lower, this coming from ex virgin staff with 20 to 30 years experience. I suppose you know better them all of them aswell.
In reality the relationship between senior management as staff is at an all time low.

Virgin wasn't under the thumb of the DfT for every decision, it was a proper franchise making an absolute fortune per year in profit. Of course staff preferred it then, however, what they don't tell you is that the early years of Virgin in the 90s were pretty bad, far worse than anything we see today.

You seem fairly new to rail, versus my near 30 years, and I've had pretty much every set of owning groups in existence, some downright corrupt, others bankrupt and others in between. If you keep listening to your colleagues moaning, and allow yourself to be dragged down to their unhappy level, you are not going to enjoy your career. You already sound very disheartened and critical of your employer. It is what it is.

I think anyone else on this forum will tell you the same thing - it does not matter what colour your uniform is - the issues will not change unless and until there is political will.

 

[Cowley]

Could we cool things down a bit from here on please?

Thanks

 

[reb0118]

If it is really incorrect who organised the ballot? Santa Claus?

AFAIAA RMT can organise a ballot on behalf of its members.

 

[childwallblues]

All Euston-Liverpool trains now stop at Milton Keynes. When leaving Euston the TM chezks the tickets in both first class and Standard Premium. Similarly southbound tickets are checked after Crewe. However last week I travelled Standard Premium on the 0743 from Liverpool. Arriving at Milton Keynes a number of passengers boarded the train and came into both first and Standard Premium.The TM never came through to check whether these passengers had the appropiate tickets.

 

[Rover77]

All Euston-Liverpool trains now stop at Milton Keynes. When leaving Euston the TM chezks the tickets in both first class and Standard Premium. Similarly southbound tickets are checked after Crewe. However last week I travelled Standard Premium on the 0743 from Liverpool. Arriving at Milton Keynes a number of passengers boarded the train and came into both first and Standard Premium.The TM never came through to check whether these passengers had the appropiate tickets.

Yes, sounds very familiar. The issue is you can't be everywhere at once, particularly in an 11 car train. The TM may well have concentrated on standard. Personally, I have been doing that recently after being informed too much of my revenue comes from standard premium upgrades. Despite doing full checks I don't sell much in standard, however I am knowingly ignoring revenue in standard premium on shorter sections in the hope of selling a standard ticket.

I do accept that when the scanning situation is sorted out I won't need to justify myself in this way as the scanner will show what I've done.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Yes, sounds very familiar. The issue is you can't be everywhere at once, particularly in an 11 car train. The TM may well have concentrated on standard. Personally, I have been doing that recently after being informed too much of my revenue comes from standard premium upgrades. Despite doing full checks I don't sell much in standard, however I am knowingly ignoring revenue in standard premium on shorter sections in the hope of selling a standard ticket.

I do accept that when the scanning situation is sorted out I won't need to justify myself in this way as the scanner will show what I've done.

So you're saying you're deliberately making life harder for yourself by not scanning?

 

[Krokodil]

after being informed too much of my revenue comes from standard premium upgrades

Does the micromanagement know no bounds?

 

[Rover77]

I'm following my Union. Short term pain for long term gain. Even when we are scanning there will still be plenty of tickets going unchecked and it is impossible to be everywhere at once.
I think we've covered people's opinions on the matter, I'm trying to give an insight into reasons tickets may not have been checked. There are plenty of valid reasons before jumping to the conclusion that the TM can't be bothered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2024 ==

Does the micromanagement know no bounds?

It appears not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's particularly ridiculous given that it leads to people travelling Standard Premium without paying the upgrade. As that can be purchased on board, one would expect SP to be the majority of on-board revenue!

 

[LowLevel]

Yes, sounds very familiar. The issue is you can't be everywhere at once, particularly in an 11 car train. The TM may well have concentrated on standard. Personally, I have been doing that recently after being informed too much of my revenue comes from standard premium upgrades. Despite doing full checks I don't sell much in standard, however I am knowingly ignoring revenue in standard premium on shorter sections in the hope of selling a standard ticket.

I do accept that when the scanning situation is sorted out I won't need to justify myself in this way as the scanner will show what I've done.

Surely your management have better things to do than analyse breakdown of revenue take by train manager

 

[Rover77]

Surely your management have better things to do than analyse breakdown of revenue take by train manager

You'd have thought so but apparently not. To be fair they are following directions from above. They are mostly apologetic and awkward about these conversations but need to tick the box that we've been spoken to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2024 ==

That's particularly ridiculous given that it leads to people travelling Standard Premium without paying the upgrade. As that can be purchased on board, one would expect SP to be the majority of on-board revenue!

Absolutely spot on. Standard Premium generates significantly most of my takings. When time is limited between stops I usually target Standard Premium first but we are all being told to concentrate on Standard. I believe it was directed by the DfT.

 

[WirralLine]

You'd have thought so but apparently not. To be fair they are following directions from above. They are mostly apologetic and awkward about these conversations but need to tick the box that we've been spoken to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2024 ==


Absolutely spot on. Standard Premium generates significantly most of my takings. When time is limited between stops I usually target Standard Premium first but we are all being told to concentrate on Standard. I believe it was directed by the DfT.

This is interesting, is the revenue from standard plus upgrades going directly in the pockets of Avanti/First or the DfT? I know the reason TfW brought in their standard plus sections was purely to boost revenue by selling upgrades (although the upgrades still arn't being charged yet). One might be tempted to assume the DfT want standard checking as the revenue there would simply be ensuring people have a valid ticket and reducing subsidy.

I know TfW arn't a DfT TOC, but obviously any revenue from SP upgrades goes directly to them, whereas normal walk up fares are presumably split between whichever TOCs a ticket can be used on.

 

[Rover77]

This is interesting, is the revenue from standard plus upgrades going directly in the pockets of Avanti/First or the DfT? I know the reason TfW brought in their standard plus sections was purely to boost revenue by selling upgrades (although the upgrades still arn't being charged yet). One might be tempted to assume the DfT want standard checking as the revenue there would simply be ensuring people have a valid ticket and reducing subsidy.

I know TfW arn't a DfT TOC, but obviously any revenue from SP upgrades goes directly to them, whereas normal walk up fares are presumably split between whichever TOCs a ticket can be used on.

Good question and one I don't know the answer to.

 

[ABB125]

Absolutely spot on. Standard Premium generates significantly most of my takings. When time is limited between stops I usually target Standard Premium first but we are all being told to concentrate on Standard. I believe it was directed by the DfT.

Standard premium is a guaranteed revenue generator. Surely DfT would prefer this to be prioritised over standard, where you would expect most passengers to already have a ticket? Or are they working on the basis that people with the "wrong" ticket can be charged a full new fare?

 

[Rover77]

Standard premium is a guaranteed revenue generator. Surely DfT would prefer this to be prioritised over standard, where you would expect most passengers to already have a ticket? Or are they working on the basis that people with the "wrong" ticket can be charged a full new fare?

I think they work on the premis that whatever we are doing is wrong, and we must do as we are told. I sincerely believe that their is no strategic revenue reasoning behind it. Just another political opportunity to flex their muscles and try and demonstrate that the grade is not necessary.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Good question and one I don't know the answer to.

All TOC revenue, 100% of it, goes to the DfT - it doesn't matter whether it comes from advertising, rents, car parking, or farebox revenue - Avanti hands it all over, and they get a single figure % back as a fixed fee.

This is why I find it very hard to believe that your experience is accurate. If it is correct, I suspect the issue is your local management misunderstanding what is expected from them. Whilst the latest DfT contracts now has a focus on revenue protection included, this shouldn't make one bit of difference to how a Train Manager performs their duties as it is not micromanaged to that degree, as long as you are regularly walking through the train and checking tickets.

Ironically, and as someone else mentioned above, when you actually agree to start scanning tickets, you'll probably find your ticket checking duties are much faster!

 

[LowLevel]

All TOC revenue, 100% of it, goes to the DfT - it doesn't matter whether it comes from advertising, rents, car parking, or farebox revenue - Avanti hands it all over, and they get a single figure % back as a fixed fee.

This is why I find it very hard to believe that your experience is accurate. If it is correct, I suspect the issue is your local management misunderstanding what is expected from them. Whilst the latest DfT contracts now has a focus on revenue protection included, this shouldn't make one bit of difference to how a Train Manager performs their duties as it is not micromanaged to that degree, as long as you are regularly walking through the train and checking tickets.

Ironically, and as someone else mentioned above, when you actually agree to start scanning tickets, you'll probably find your ticket checking duties are much faster!

The thing is though that this level of micromanaging is not something that Rover77 is bringing to the table here as something new - it's featured in things like RMT circulars for some time with things like train managers receiving "discussions" about for example not having been noted checking tickets between pairs of North Wales Coast stations. It is no secret that Avanti and their workforce have had a major breakdown in relations and if even some of the reports are accurate it isn't hard to see why.

 

[Rover77]

All TOC revenue, 100% of it, goes to the DfT - it doesn't matter whether it comes from advertising, rents, car parking, or farebox revenue - Avanti hands it all over, and they get a single figure % back as a fixed fee.

This is why I find it very hard to believe that your experience is accurate. If it is correct, I suspect the issue is your local management misunderstanding what is expected from them. Whilst the latest DfT contracts now has a focus on revenue protection included, this shouldn't make one bit of difference to how a Train Manager performs their duties as it is not micromanaged to that degree, as long as you are regularly walking through the train and checking tickets.

Ironically, and as someone else mentioned above, when you actually agree to start scanning tickets, you'll probably find your ticket checking duties are much faster!

I am going to say this as politely as I can so not to offend you, a courtesy you haven't afford me!!!

I accept the arguments regarding scanning. I will always go with my union.
I do take exception in you constantly stating you doubt my story. You are essentially calling me a liar.
My experience regarding revenue and concentrating on standard is real and could be vouched for by Avanti TMs at multiple depots. It is a definite directive.
You may not like what I've said but it is fact.
My previous comments regarding minimal revenue training g is also fact and again my experience is mirrored by many TMs up and down the country. I am in daily private discussions with them about both the above.
I was warned by my colleagues about this forum as many posters don't want honest factual accounts. This is the reason many of my colleagues steer well clear of it.
For the time being I will continue to share my honest experiences in such a forum as others seem genuinely interested and join in a grown up discussion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2024 ==

The thing is though that this level of micromanaging is not something that Rover77 is bringing to the table here as something new - it's featured in things like RMT circulars for some time with things like train managers receiving "discussions" about for example not having been noted checking tickets between pairs of North Wales Coast stations. It is no secret that Avanti and their workforce have had a major breakdown in relations and if even some of the reports are accurate it isn't hard to see why.

Exactly. Thankyou

 

[Krokodil]

The thing is though that this level of micromanaging is not something that Rover77 is bringing to the table here as something new - it's featured in things like RMT circulars for some time with things like train managers receiving "discussions" about for example not having been noted checking tickets between pairs of North Wales Coast stations. It is no secret that Avanti and their workforce have had a major breakdown in relations and if even some of the reports are accurate it isn't hard to see why.

Indeed, I've heard accounts of micromanaging from various Avanti TMs I know. I'm pretty sure that this isn't just a local issue (though I don't know where Rover is based) but company wide. It's possible that a senior manager at Avanti (Head of Train Managers, Head of Retail or similar title) is an arse. It's also possible that the policy comes from the DfT staff minding Avanti (as all DfT TOCs have civil servants man-marking them) who haven't got a clue how to run a railway and are insisting on nonsense policies in order to keep themselves looking busy. Who knows?

All I know is that my non-DfT TOC has deployed the carrot rather than the stick and has achieved very good results, leading the pack where scanning is concerned.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Knowing FirstGroup as I do, I'd guess there is someone in an office who is supposed to be analysing ticket scan data, but doesn't have any, so is analysing what they can instead. And this has thrown up a disproportionate amount of SP revenue given the higher number of Standard passengers, standard should produce the most-to the mind of someone in an office who has no idea about the real job

 

[Rover77]

Knowing FirstGroup as I do, I'd guess there is someone in an office who is supposed to be analysing ticket scan data, but doesn't have any, so is analysing what they can instead. And this has thrown up a disproportionate amount of SP revenue given the higher number of Standard passengers, standard should produce the most-to the mind of someone in an office who has no idea about the real job

Sounds a reasonable possibility

 

[jamiearmley]

I am going to say this as politely as I can so not to offend you, a courtesy you haven't afford me!!!

I accept the arguments regarding scanning. I will always go with my union.
I do take exception in you constantly stating you doubt my story. You are essentially calling me a liar.
My experience regarding revenue and concentrating on standard is real and could be vouched for by Avanti TMs at multiple depots. It is a definite directive.
You may not like what I've said but it is fact.
My previous comments regarding minimal revenue training g is also fact and again my experience is mirrored by many TMs up and down the country. I am in daily private discussions with them about both the above.
I was warned by my colleagues about this forum as many posters don't want honest factual accounts. This is the reason many of my colleagues steer well clear of it.

Completely support your views here. Although my TOC is not (currently) as extreme as yours, we are well on our way.

Watching this discussion reminds me of the regular 'ask the directors' online things we have.

Customer facing staff raise genuine concerns, (often supported by multiple, disparate members of staff) - which are then met , publicly, live and in real time, by disbelief and 'management doublespeak' from our 'leaders'. We are generally told that the issue raised isn't an issue, doesn't exist, and, simultaneously, is in fact a massive benefit to all.

The staff member learns within a few seconds that the 'open forum' is anything but, and that the best thing to do is not to waste energy raising issues in future. Management then tell us what a success the open forum has been, whilst lamenting the poor results of the latest staff engagement survey.

Keep posting mate. I, and many others, appreciate what you have to say.