Lack of ticket checking / scanning on Avanti services

[800Travel]

RMT does not allow Train Managers on Avanti (and TPE) to properly inspect barcode tickets or smart cards - they want an additional payment. Extremely petty, but highly problematic for revenue protection.

Standard Premium and First class upgrades result in them getting a small sales commission.

Thank you - this explains a lot. Was wondering why lots of TPE guards had just been looking at e-tickets and not scanning them

 

[Benjwri]

Love how so many people on this forum are such experts on everything.

Aren’t you the same person that was spreading rumours of FirstGroup losing their Avanti contract in March?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Aren’t you the same person that was spreading rumours of FirstGroup losing their Avanti contract in March?

Wishful, if speculative, thinking, very probably? The poster has previously advised that they are an Avanti TM.

 

[NewarkRed]

Seems to be a lot of agitated posters on here if Avanti/First Group are criticised...

I Believe the word is "triggered"...

 

[RHolmes]

RMT does not allow Train Managers on Avanti (and TPE)

That’s incorrect I’m afraid. The RMT has no say on the issue.

The members of the RMT do however, and balloted democratically for action short of strike on said issue.

 

[Confused52]

That’s incorrect I’m afraid. The RMT has no say on the issue.

The members of the RMT do however, and balloted democratically for action short of strike on said issue.

If it is really incorrect who organised the ballot? Santa Claus?

 

[Haywain]

If it is really incorrect who organised the ballot? Santa Claus?

A more appropriate terminology would be that there is no agreement between RMT and Avanti.

 

[Rover77]

You're still talking absolutely rubbish and seem to have a totally flawed argument here.

I have no idea how this subsidiary company fits into your conspiracy - but let's run with it and say you're correct, it's linked to First Group and they're using the data in the way you describe, to monitor staff.

What do you propose would stop them from buying the equipment/ data from a totally unrelated company for the same purpose? Why does it matter where it comes from? Surely any company providing this sort of product would have reporting available - otherwise it would be a pretty useless product?

Second - if a ticket is invalid, and a Train Manager knows it is invalid, and is repeatedly accepting invalid tickets without taking action to resolve these irregularities - then like in any other job, I'd expect to be investigated and performance managed. Showing discretion on occasion is completely different to routinely accepting invalid tickets.

(This also relies on a strange conspiracy here, because Avanti as a franchise presumably doesn't really care all that much about the absolutely miniscule revenue a Train Manager is finding, it all goes to the DfT, and excess fares etc really is are a tiny rounding error in the scheme of things).

Third - think about how many train managers are employed by Avanti - hundreds across wide geographic areas. They're in short supply, fairly costly to recruit and train - and the franchise needs all the resource it can get. You're assuming that someone is actively spending time on reports looking for the slightest staff irregularity to then immediately pounce on them and get HR involved, open an investigation, disciplinary etc. It's frankly bananas, and sounds simply like a typical rail staff myth - "they're watching us". Funny how this all gets resolved once a pay deal incorporates it.

I also refuse to believe that Train Managers aren't trained on ticketing/revenue - perhaps not to the highest of standards - but I would bet my house that they receive training, and presumably mentoring.

I am an Avanti TM. I completed the much condensed 4 week TM training course a little over 12 months ago. We did not even discuss revenue let alone do any training on it. Whilst shadowing I was shown very briefly how to use the ticketing hardware but have not received any formal revenue training.
You may find it hard to believe but it is a fact. Firstgroup spend as little as possible, rush people through. All about maximum profits for shareholders at the detriment of customers and staff. Most customers are clueless yet adamant they know what's going on , much like some of the posters on this thread and often criticise staff. Very frustrating.

Also, Euston should be fully barriered which is why First and standard premium is checked.

TMs need to be able to show discretion for a number of reasons. If there is disruption for instance resulting in customers missing trains, the scanners often will show that the ticket is not valid on that particular train. The TM can override this but can be bombarded with please explains afterwards. By visually checking this problem in negated.
Again you may find the pettinessand time wasted by management trying to catch staff out unbelievable. If I hadn't seen it and experienced it myself I probably would too.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I am an Avanti TM. I completed the much condensed 4 week TM training course a little over 12 months ago. We did not even discuss revenue let alone do any training on it. Whilst shadowing I was shown very briefly how to use the ticketing hardware but have not received any formal revenue training.
You may find it hard to believe but it is a fact. Firstgroup spend as little as possible, rush people through. All about maximum profits for shareholders at the detriment of customers and staff. Most customers are clueless yet adamant they know what's going on , much like some of the posters on this thread and often criticise staff. Very frustrating.

Also, Euston should be fully barriered which is why First and standard premium is checked.

TMs need to be able to show discretion for a number of reasons. If there is disruption for instance resulting in customers missing trains, the scanners often will show that the ticket is not valid on that particular train. The TM can override this but can be bombarded with please explains afterwards. By visually checking this problem in negated.
Again you may find the pettinessand time wasted by management trying to catch staff out unbelievable. If I hadn't seen it and experienced it myself I probably would too.

For a Train Manager who appears to have been doing the role for little more than a year, it does sound like you're in the wrong job/company if you are so disillusioned and anti-Avanti as you are coming across online.

There are a few holes easily picked in your story too - the scanning of e-tickets has not been happening on Avanti now for a couple of years, this is not recent, - so inevitably the question turns to, how can staff be getting "bombarded" with requests to explain themselves? Even taking your account of things at face value, this must significantly predate your employment as a Train Manager. Logically it can only be assumed that you are recounting tales from other staff who have been there considerably longer.

A change of ownership is not going to make a blind bit of difference to your sort of role. If Avanti really are monitoring you in the way you describe (which, as an employer, they're absolutely entitled to do anyway and is completely normal in any other industry), it will be because of the need to meet a DfT obligation. Absolutely all elements of rail are micromanaged - there is simply no current incentive for Avanti to take a particular course of action unless it is at the behest of the government.

I suspect many rail staff would happily swap from other TOCs to join Avanti - you may not like them or their approach, but I don't think you appreciate how good you really do have it there, compared to other regions/operators.

The RMT position is also fairly benign and relates only to a demand to be paid for scanning.

The union has raised our concerns with the company that you and your colleagues are not receiving fair remuneration for rest day and Sunday working. There are also issues with members not receiving payments for scanning tickets, with the company forcing ticket scanning policies through, without consideration of additional payments for carrying out these duties.

Presumably, therefore, once a "technology payment" is received - it's all resolved.

 

[Rover77]

For a Train Manager who appears to have been doing the role for little more than a year, it does sound like you're in the wrong job/company if you are so disillusioned and anti-Avanti as you are coming across online.

There are a few holes easily picked in your story too - the scanning of e-tickets has not been happening on Avanti now for a couple of years, this is not recent, - so inevitably the question turns to, how can staff be getting "bombarded" with requests to explain themselves? Even taking your account of things at face value, this must significantly predate your employment as a Train Manager. Logically it can only be assumed that you are recounting tales from other staff who have been there considerably longer.

A change of ownership is not going to make a blind bit of difference to your sort of role. If Avanti really are monitoring you in the way you describe (which, as an employer, they're absolutely entitled to do anyway and is completely normal in any other industry), it will be because of the need to meet a DfT obligation. Absolutely all elements of rail are micromanaged - there is simply no current incentive for Avanti to take a particular course of action unless it is at the behest of the government.

I suspect many rail staff would happily swap from other TOCs to join Avanti - you may not like them or their approach, but I don't think you appreciate how good you really do have it there, compared to other regions/operators.

The RMT position is also fairly benign and relates only to a demand to be paid for scanning.


Presumably, therefore, once a "technology payment" is received - it's all resolved.

I give up. You obviously know everything there is to know about my role. You are also questioning my integrity.
It must be wonderful to know everything and always be right.

 

[Haywain]

Firstgroup spend as little as possible, rush people through. All about maximum profits for shareholders at the detriment of customers and staff.

First Group get very little say in what is spent, as all TOCs are being micro managed by DfT, and have been for the last 3-4 years, with a tight rein on spending. First Group are paid an essentially fixed fee for running the operation and have no ability to take more money out.

 

[Rover77]

First Group get very little say in what is spent, as all TOCs are being micro managed by DfT, and have been for the last 3-4 years, with a tight rein on spending. First Group are paid an essentially fixed fee for running the operation and have no ability to take more money out.

That is fair enough, equally though as profits are guaranteed under this model there is little effort made to improve the reliability of the service or the knowledge of the staff. Ultimately it is the customer who suffers.

 

[Krokodil]

I completed the much condensed 4 week TM training course a little over 12 months ago

Four weeks?! My course at a different TOC was 10 weeks not counting route learning and minding weeks. I believe that the latter has actually got longer since I passed out too.

 

[Rover77]

Four weeks?! My course at a different TOC was 10 weeks not counting route learning and minding weeks. I believe that the latter has actually got longer since I passed out too.

Not including route learning and shadowing weeks, the actual course at the Talent Academy in Crewe was 4 weeks. A few years back it was 13 which included comprehensive revenue training. It has gradually been shortened. We were due to go back for coupling/shunting training as yet this hasnt happened.I know believe it is up to 5 weeks again but still missing coupling.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

That is fair enough, equally though as profits are guaranteed under this model there is little effort made to improve the reliability of the service or the knowledge of the staff. Ultimately it is the customer who suffers.

Profits are NOT even remotely guaranteed (more misinformation).

People get confused between a TOC receiving a fixed fee from the DfT for operating the contract and a guaranteed profit.

The fixed fee, which whilst they can be reasonably profitable, is rather meagre in the grand scheme of things - especially when you consider the DfT micromanaged demands and (usually unfair) reputational damage a TOC can cause a parent company implementing the DfT wishlist of policies.

The slightest deviation from DfT policy or failure to meet a DfT obligation (in some cases, even where this is outside of the TOC control) can be extremely costly - and is deducted from the fixed fee - so to say they're receiving a guaranteed profit is false. Most of these contracts are one bad, precarious decision away from being in the red for the year.

 

[Krokodil]

I suspect many rail staff would happily swap from other TOCs to join Avanti

I wouldn't. This isn't the first time that I've heard this sort of thing about their guards' managers. Even going back to Virgin days there were problems of one kind or another. I don't fancy their conditions either, I quite like my rolling rest day pattern and my limit on movement from spare.

People get confused between a TOC receiving a fixed fee from the DfT for operating the contract and a guaranteed profit.

Easy to get confused when Avanti's senior management boasted about the "free money" First was getting.

 

[Rover77]

Ultimately, getting back to the original post. I don't scan tickets because no agreement in place regarding use of technology.(and I've never been trained)
I use discretion where appropriate and try my best to be reasonable for customers. Revenue is only a part of the job, safety comes first. I've already done a few train to train evacuations amongst other safety related incidents.
The award winning refurbishment of the pendalino fleet is all fur coat and no knickers. HVAC ( air con), seat reservations, double booking, plug sockets, TMS fails on a daily basis, and the cancelled services causing overcrowding make a difficult job almost impossible.
Saying that, I enjoy the challenge and trying my best for customers. Just a shame we are constantly let down by those making decisions and blamed by those not in the know.

 

[RHolmes]

If it is really incorrect who organised the ballot? Santa Claus?

The employees of the company.

The RMT don’t decide to randomly hold ballots, it comes from the feedback of the members who work the front line roles to their representatives (who also work the front line roles often the exact same role)

If there is then similar feeling across the board it then becomes a proposal to ballot, the ballot happens and the employees who are part of the union make the decision.

Again, the RMT have absolutely no say in Who scans what, where, when or why.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm still astonished that they've dropped guard training down to four weeks. Even with the non-safety critical stuff removed.

 

[Rover77]

I'm still astonished that they've dropped guard training down to four weeks. Even with the non-safety critical stuff removed.

You're not alone. Was very intensive to try and fit all the content in.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If there is no revenue training at all, how to TMs have any clue at all about what tickets are or are not valid?

If everything is about saving money, why are calling TMs in to explain every case of discretion? That will cost far, far more than paying them to scan

 

[Rover77]

If there is no revenue training at all, how to TMs have any clue at all about what tickets are or are not valid?

If everything is about saving money, why are calling TMs in to explain every case of discretion? That will cost far, far more than paying them to scan

The problem with your synopsis is you have applied logic and common sense and unfortunately it is far from common.
TMs are not taken off jobs for the quiet chat they are caught at beginning or end of shifts.
I have to work out myself what ticket is what sometimes I genuinely don't know so I have no option but to give the benefit of the doubt.
I understand many will find this situation very hard to believe. I can assure you it is fact.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The problem with your synopsis is you have applied logic and common sense and unfortunately it is far from common.
TMs are not taken off jobs for the quiet chat they are caught at beginning or end of shifts.
I have to work out myself what ticket is what sometimes I genuinely don't know so I have no option but to give the benefit of the doubt.
I understand many will find this situation very hard to believe. I can assure you it is fact.

But if you've had zero revenue training, how do you know advance tickets are only valid on a particular train? How do you know when off-peak is? How do you know what to charge people sitting in Standard Premium? How do you even know what Standard Premium is?

 

[Lg_]

I'm still astonished that they've dropped guard training down to four weeks. Even with the non-safety critical stuff removed.

They aren’t alone. TPE training is now 3 weeks of rules and 1 week of retail/revenue.
I believe northern are the main holdouts still with a longer training course.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The longer guards courses are generally the ones that are non-compliant with latest ORR guidance and best practices.

For example, take Non-Technical Skills - this for many years, was delivered as standalone training over a couple of days which is now considered very bad practice - and the overall course should have NTS integrated into it, without staff realising they've received specific training on it (if it's done right). There will be several areas like this where technology or a change in training methodology has improved the training, whilst also making it more efficient.

Then consider for some TOCs, such as Avanti there is no training required for Absolute Block, (save for specific staff working Chester/Holyhead), Tokens/Tablets etc. Similarly no need to cover DC electrification for certain depots, e.g. Edinburgh/Glasgow.

Then traction, virtually no engineering/maintenance knowledge is required for faults now - because of the various agreements with the manufacturers, or the fact it's a simple flick of a switch or a reset button before TOC policy says to get help from control.

Shunting and coupling - seriously, which TOC actually uses guards to shunt/couple in 2024? I'm sure there's a handful of depots across the country that need this, but I suspect even the staff that are trained, rarely, if ever, actually use this knowledge. Why would Avanti Train Managers need this knowledge these days? Need to know handsignals, but that's about it.

If you're a Train Manager at Glasgow, only working one traction, Class 390s, only signing Preston-Glasgow and Carlisle-Edinburgh, AC only electrification, modern signalling etc- trains are prepped at Polamdie/depots for you - 4 weeks is probably sufficient for core TM training, a week for Traction, week or two route learning, couple of weeks with a mentor.

A TM at Holyhead would probably be an additional 2-4 weeks given two traction types, Absolute Block signalling, DC electrification, and a more complex core route Holyhead to Chester and then all the way down to Euston, and diversions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shunting and coupling - seriously, which TOC actually uses guards to shunt/couple in 2024?

Who does splitting/joining for Avanti on Voyagers/80x? I assume it is guards.

Probably don't need to know about screw couplers and the likes though.

 

[Bluejays]

I am an Avanti TM. I completed the much condensed 4 week TM training course a little over 12 months ago. We did not even discuss revenue let alone do any training on it. Whilst shadowing I was shown very briefly how to use the ticketing hardware but have not received any formal revenue training.
You may find it hard to believe but it is a fact. Firstgroup spend as little as possible, rush people through. All about maximum profits for shareholders at the detriment of customers and staff. Most customers are clueless yet adamant they know what's going on , much like some of the posters on this thread and often criticise staff. Very frustrating.

Also, Euston should be fully barriered which is why First and standard premium is checked.

TMs need to be able to show discretion for a number of reasons. If there is disruption for instance resulting in customers missing trains, the scanners often will show that the ticket is not valid on that particular train. The TM can override this but can be bombarded with please explains afterwards. By visually checking this problem in negated.
Again you may find the pettinessand time wasted by management trying to catch staff out unbelievable. If I hadn't seen it and experienced it myself I probably would too.

I don't know anything about Avanti, so I will take your word on it. But one thing I do want to pick you up on.
Speaking as a GWR train manager, and first group shareholder (acquired through the company sharesaves) . I'm quite interested in the 'maximum profits for shareholders at the expense of staff and customers'. That sounds like the kind of guff that goes around amongst certain members of staff, but isn't based in reality. It's not within first groups ability to siphon off money by cutting corners, even if they wanted to. Might be worth reading up on national rail contracts and seeing how it is they make their money from rail.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Who does splitting/joining for Avanti on Voyagers/80x? I assume it is guards.

Probably don't need to know about screw couplers and the likes though.

It's all drivers. Guards don't get involved in shunting/coupling - other than perhaps closing the doors and making an announcement. However, on Avanti Voyagers, drivers tend to do most of the door operation too!

 

[Bluejays]

But if you've had zero revenue training, how do you know advance tickets are only valid on a particular train? How do you know when off-peak is? How do you know what to charge people sitting in Standard Premium? How do you even know what Standard Premium is?

By picking it up as you go along I'd imagine. We're not all as daft as the dailymail would have you believe .

Very poor that proper revenue training isn't being given though

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

By picking it up as you go along I'd imagine. We're not all as daft as the dailymail would have you believe .

Very poor that proper revenue training isn't being given though

I'm highly skeptical of the claim revenue training isn't provided. I suspect it's not as comprehensive as many would like (but what's new there?) - but the claim there is no training at all doesn't sound right to me.

At the very least there will be training on cash regulations/handling (how to pay in etc), how to set up ticket equipment (although if they're point blank refusing to use it, perhaps there's no point at the moment?) I also believe there is ORR / RSSB guidance on receiving conflict resolution/management training - although again, best practice is that it is integrated rather than standalone. Avanti TMs also have bodyworn CCTV, so presumably have some level of instruction in how to use it.

I'm pretty sure they also receive food hygiene/handling and first aid training.

I could potentially see a temporary situation where TMs are purely operational in order to get services running (like SWR non commercial guards) - but only as an interim measure whilst recruitment occurs.