South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Dai Corner]

What's the significance of the designation as non-mainline? What difference does it make?

I think the significant difference is that the branch will be operated 'on sight' rather than with main line style signalling.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The document also notes that the "4tph service" (i.e. 4tph to the head of each valley) will be all day on Mondays-Saturdays, from the very first train of the day (0530) to the last (2330 Mon-Thu; 0030 Fri-Sat).

I'll be honest I think that may be the biggest thing here given currently they go 1tph after a certain point in the evening! Also not counting chickens but that sounds like maybe later last services too.

 

[The exile]

I'll be honest I think that may be the biggest thing here given currently they go 1tph after a certain point in the evening! Also not counting chickens but that sounds like maybe later last services too.

That’s certainly something that has the potential to generate modal shift.

 

[Tom125]

That’s certainly something that has the potential to generate modal shift.

I completely agree- it’s going to be marvellous when operational.

 

[anthony263]

I'll be honest I think that may be the biggest thing here given currently they go 1tph after a certain point in the evening! Also not counting chickens but that sounds like maybe later last services too.

They are currently latest services are 2215-2300 at a push

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

That’s certainly something that has the potential to generate modal shift.

Indeed especially as originally it was being cut to 2tph on each branch after 1900

 

[Northerngirl]

Still a shambolic Sunday service, but 6/7 days of reliable trains will definitely bring a lot of passengers

 

[John R]

Still a shambolic Sunday service, but 6/7 days of reliable trains will definitely bring a lot of passengers

In what way is it shambolic? There has just been a big improvement in the service offered, and last Sunday’s service ran pretty much as clockwork from a quick glance of both the Pontypridd and Rhymney line services on RTT.

 

[Tom125]

In what way is it shambolic? There has just been a big improvement in the service offered, and last Sunday’s service ran pretty much as clockwork from a quick glance of both the Pontypridd and Rhymney line services on RTT.

My guess would be that services are still only hourly to the heads of each valley- which is off putting. Hopefully post 2025 the Sunday service will be better than hourly and run later.

 

[John R]

My guess would be that services are still only hourly to the heads of each valley- which is off putting. Hopefully post 2025 the Sunday service will be better than hourly and run later.

Offputting is a different thing to shambolic (which suggests the stated service does not run reliably). And the hourly service is a big step up from the two hourly service which ran prior to June.

 

[anthony263]

Offputting is a different thing to shambolic (which suggests the stated service does not run reliably). And the hourly service is a big step up from the two hourly service which ran prior to June.

Was supposed to be half hourly on Sundays with earlier and later services

 

[John R]

Was supposed to be half hourly on Sundays with earlier and later services

When the trams start running, yes, but this is an intermediate step.

Just because the final frequency hasn’t been reached yet, I don’t think you can call a service shambolic when it’s recently seen a doubling of frequency and is running reliably (which I understand is due to Sunday being brought within the working week from the start of the new timetable).

 

[Northerngirl]

My guess would be that services are still only hourly to the heads of each valley- which is off putting. Hopefully post 2025 the Sunday service will be better than hourly and run later.

I really hope so, I just don't understand why tocs have such an aversion to Sundays, it really winds me up

 

[Bald Rick]

I really hope so, I just don't understand why tocs have such an aversion to Sundays, it really winds me up

Until recently, TfW train crew didnt have Sunday in their working week.

Now they do.

 

[MikePJ]

The "consultation committment" (a sort of pre-consultation briefing document) has come out for the first phase of "Cardiff Crossrail" - i.e. the construction of tramway platforms in Cardiff Central's south car park and a new street-level tramway across Callaghan Square to a junction with the Bay branch north of the new Butetown station. There's some useful material in here defining the scope of the project and the funding. A couple of notable things:

• the scope of work does not include any street-running extension beyond Cardiff Bay station (this is described as the next phase - "Phase 1B" - of the project and is unfunded)
• It does include adding a third platform at Cardiff Bay
• The tracks across Callaghan Square are described as "segregated", which I take to mean no street-running mixed with road traffic, and the sketch map on page 6 suggests that a road rearrangement will mean that east-west traffic (on Herbert St / Tresillian Way / Penarth Rd) will only cross the tramline once. Trams will also cross the taxis-and-access-only stub of Penarth Road that leads to the bridge under the mainline railway, and will also cross Bute St.
• At the Bay end, the (unfunded) sketch map suggests that the trams will take over the eastern carriageaway of Lloyd George Avenue and Bute Place (past the Red Dragon Centre), then run behind the QPark car park to terminate on the piece of rough land between QPark and the Caspian Point office blocks. This is in line with what was proposed in previous consultations.

 

[Meerkat]

I’m an outsider who has only been to Cardiff on a stag do but I am really curious about the value of all this.
The Bay bit has two stations, neither of which is particularly near the pier head, and the Central station doesn’t seem to be part of the station and as it’s south of the station it doesn’t seem particularly convenient for the city centre compared to Queen Street. What am I missing?

Also how much fresh air will 4tph be carrying if it’s start to finish? Obviously it’s nice to have but the populations served aren’t huge and in financially constrained times other parts of Wales must be pondering whether they are funding it when their transport isn’t nearly so good???

 

[slowroad]

I’m an outsider who has only been to Cardiff on a stag do but I am really curious about the value of all this.
The Bay bit has two stations, neither of which is particularly near the pier head, and the Central station doesn’t seem to be part of the station and as it’s south of the station it doesn’t seem particularly convenient for the city centre compared to Queen Street. What am I missing?

Also how much fresh air will 4tph be carrying if it’s start to finish? Obviously it’s nice to have but the populations served aren’t huge and in financially constrained times other parts of Wales must be pondering whether they are funding it when their transport isn’t nearly so good???

The Metro is a vision-led scheme. Asking questions about likely usage and cost-effectiveness are seen as in bad taste.

 

[MikePJ]

I’m an outsider who has only been to Cardiff on a stag do but I am really curious about the value of all this.
The Bay bit has two stations, neither of which is particularly near the pier head, and the Central station doesn’t seem to be part of the station and as it’s south of the station it doesn’t seem particularly convenient for the city centre compared to Queen Street. What am I missing?

Also how much fresh air will 4tph be carrying if it’s start to finish? Obviously it’s nice to have but the populations served aren’t huge and in financially constrained times other parts of Wales must be pondering whether they are funding it when their transport isn’t nearly so good???

The Cardiff Central end of the link is designed to make it easier for people arriving in Cardiff from stations on the main line to reach the entertainment venues in the Bay (notably the Millennium Centre, but also a future indoor arena that will be built there). If none of the rest of the scheme is built it'll end up being a bit of a white elephant, but if the proposed extensions happen (notably into Splott & Tremorfa) it'll bring better transport to a relatively poor area of the city.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I’m an outsider who has only been to Cardiff on a stag do but I am really curious about the value of all this.
The Bay bit has two stations, neither of which is particularly near the pier head, and the Central station doesn’t seem to be part of the station and as it’s south of the station it doesn’t seem particularly convenient for the city centre compared to Queen Street. What am I missing?

Also how much fresh air will 4tph be carrying if it’s start to finish? Obviously it’s nice to have but the populations served aren’t huge and in financially constrained times other parts of Wales must be pondering whether they are funding it when their transport isn’t nearly so good???

Well to start with the plan solves the issue of people getting to central and then having to get one train queen street and another to the bay (or realistically getting a bus or a taxi or walking).

In terms if at central, my understanding is that the stop will be right at the south of the station so no real difference in distance than if they added extra lines on the "high level" station.

As for the city centre - well that is great about having the option right? Nearer Queen street then by all means get the train from there, but nearer central (or more likely coming off a train at central) then get the new tram train from there.

And of course a lot of this is about the future. Both in terms of the future of the bay (the potential arena and other events and venues) ans the future of the Cardiff crosarail programme (going east from the bay to some other parts of the city that are currently not connected to the rail network).

 

[edwin_m]

nearer central (or more likely coming off a train at central) then get the new tram train from there.

The stop is also near the Penarth Road stub mentioned above, which provides a reasonable walking route under the railway to part of the centre that's less convenient from Queen Street.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I really hope so, I just don't understand why tocs have such an aversion to Sundays, it really winds me up

It was expensive as it was all paid at overtime rates, guards get double time for Sundays and a minimum of 7.5 hours of pay at that double rate. Booked a 6 hour shift ? You get paid for 7.5 hours at double time.
Drivers were different and I can’t remember what it was but Sundays are now included in their working week so every job has a booked driver and there are booked spare drivers available. Guards have made an agreement and will implement this next year.

Then it’s reliability of staffing, there were ‘committed Sundays’ but you could get out of it if really needed and the committed amount of staff per Sunday didn’t cover all of the jobs, so very reliant on people volunteering for overtime. Very difficult to get enough in summer when many are on holiday and those not in holiday want to spend time with their family’s on their days off.
Also no spares available so if someone had to phone in sick or their car broke down, the services they were booked to work get cancelled.
So how do you get a ‘good’ Sunday timetable with all that ?
I don’t think you ever could.

I voted FOR Sundays in the working week and I hope in the coming years we see the Sunday timetable brought inline with the rest of the week.

 

[Signal_Box]

I’m an outsider who has only been to Cardiff on a stag do but I am really curious about the value of all this.
The Bay bit has two stations, neither of which is particularly near the pier head, and the Central station doesn’t seem to be part of the station and as it’s south of the station it doesn’t seem particularly convenient for the city centre compared to Queen Street. What am I missing?

Also how much fresh air will 4tph be carrying if it’s start to finish? Obviously it’s nice to have but the populations served aren’t huge and in financially constrained times other parts of Wales must be pondering whether they are funding it when their transport isn’t nearly so good???

In short there is little to any actual value, and i highly suspect it’s never going to happen.

 

[Dr Day]

highly suspect it’s never going to happen

AIUI it has £50m of central government funding fully committed, plus the same from Welsh Government, which I understood to be enough to actually build the initial short section. This is quite different from various restoring railways type schemes which only had funding for £50k of business case/feasibility work, which do fall into the 'highly unlikely to happen' category. For that kind of money to have been committed, the scheme must have been proven to have some value against the schemes it was competing against.

 

[Signal_Box]

AIUI it has £50m of central government funding fully committed, plus the same from Welsh Government, which I understood to be enough to actually build the initial short section. This is quite different from various restoring railways type schemes which only had funding for £50k of business case/feasibility work, which do fall into the 'highly unlikely to happen' category. For that kind of money to have been committed, the scheme must have been proven to have some value against the schemes it was competing against.

You’ve never heard of government “committing” then changing their minds then ?

CVL was committed to full fat overhead electrification, then descoped to discontinuous.

HS2 was committed to Euston and Crewe…..

 

[WesternBiker]

AIUI it has £50m of central government funding fully committed, plus the same from Welsh Government, which I understood to be enough to actually build the initial short section. This is quite different from various restoring railways type schemes which only had funding for £50k of business case/feasibility work, which do fall into the 'highly unlikely to happen' category. For that kind of money to have been committed, the scheme must have been proven to have some value against the schemes it was competing against.

Presumably the £50m from central government is now under review, as with all other Department of Transport capital projects?

 

[Signal_Box]

Presumably the £50m from central government is now under review, as with all other Department of Transport capital projects?

I’d assume so, very little is safe if it requires funding from central government either in full or matched.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Read an article from March on WalesOnline detailing all the new stations due to be built in Cardiff, and it mentioned that Butetown station is planned to open in 2025 or 2026! This would mean a 3 or 4 year construction to opening time which is pretty unbelievable. Hopefully they have got it wrong as usual, does anyone know?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/new-train-stations-planned-cardiff-28814013

The text is here;

"Butetown

Building work on the new Butetown railway station is already underway. The construction of the station, which is part of a scheme involving the transformation of the line down to Cardiff Bay, also involves the redevelopment of Cardiff Bay station.

Plans to build the two platform station, which will be located to the north of Cardiff Bay station along Lloyd George Avenue, were confirmed in 2022. Services are expected to start operating at the site in 2025 or 2026."

 

[John R]

Don’t forget that it’s not just construction of the platforms, but redoubling of a line that was singled over half a century ago. And so that will have been the key factor in determining the timing.

 

[MikePJ]

An update from Cardiff Bay station: the new platform appears substantially complete, with all the precast concrete blocks now in place. Work is most active at the end nearest the Senedd - looks like drains have been installed recently.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2024 ==

Read an article from March on WalesOnline detailing all the new stations due to be built in Cardiff, and it mentioned that Butetown station is planned to open in 2025 or 2026! This would mean a 3 or 4 year construction to opening time which is pretty unbelievable. Hopefully they have got it wrong as usual, does anyone know?

I cycled past Butetown earlier and the platform on the existing line appears to be more-or-less complete, with access ramps and steps. But there's still unfinished ground between the cast concrete of the new station and Lloyd George Avenue, so that'll need paths and landscaping before it can open. May 2025 is a key date for the Bay line as it's when (according to the project timeline published in January this year) both the second track will be open and the resignalling of Queen St will be complete. I would not be surprised if Butetown's opening is held off until then.

 

[Zoomer]

Does Queen St resignalling need to be complete before the 398s can be rolled out on the TAM lines?

And as there's no 'like' button, just a thanks to Mike for all the pics! Always nice to see what's happening.

 

[CapitalStar378]

An update from Cardiff Bay station: the new platform appears substantially complete, with all the precast concrete blocks now in place. Work is most active at the end nearest the Senedd - looks like drains have been installed recently.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2024 ==


I cycled past Butetown earlier and the platform on the existing line appears to be more-or-less complete, with access ramps and steps. But there's still unfinished ground between the cast concrete of the new station and Lloyd George Avenue, so that'll need paths and landscaping before it can open. May 2025 is a key date for the Bay line as it's when (according to the project timeline published in January this year) both the second track will be open and the resignalling of Queen St will be complete. I would not be surprised if Butetown's opening is held off until then.

Great, thanks for the photos.

Looks like trains may use the new platform whilst the old one is completed.