TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[mayneway]

the EVs on order will be. I will be surprised if all the 24 Plate Enviro 400MMCs are gone by September. There aren’t 50 odd vehicles waiting around to replace them

I would imagine Middleton will retain theirs but Queen's and Oldham's are deemed as insurance vehicles and Stagecoach is being pressed to move them out.

 

[317 forever]

How many of the Ex Rotala StreetDecks that are in Yellow still need the interiors doing will these get refurbed?

I rode Go North West ex-Diamond StreetDeck 3477 in May. It had been refurbished internally by then.

 

[Man of Kent]

From what I saw there was a fleet of EVs allocated to a contract for specific routes. I initially understood TfGM were buying these but have since read a Bee Network Commitee report which suggests the capital has come from the bidders, so I think TfGM have preordered the buses due to the lead time with the successful bidder obliged to take them on.

As far as I recall, the Tranche 1 EV buses were entirely funded by TfGM. However, the February 2024 Bee Network Committee reveals the intention to spend £20.8m effectively running their own ZEBRA-type scheme, making up the difference between a diesel bus and an EV one.

The source of the funding in both cases was CRSTS - City Region Sustainable Transport Scheme.

Zero Emission Bus
1.27 The Committee is requested to approve, in line with the current plan for the
deployment of ZEBs, the drawdown of £20.8m of CRSTS ZEB funding to enable the
procurement, by Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 franchise operators, of the next 94 Zero
Emission Buses.
1.28 The £20.8m will fund the incremental cost difference between a new zero emission
bus and a new Euro VI diesel vehicle. The 94 ZEBs will replace diesel buses
currently deployed in Tranches 1 & 2, in accordance with the mechanisms and
commitments set out in the Franchise contracts.

Source: https://democracy.greatermanchester...240222 Transport Capital Programme Report.pdf

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

They were a diverted order not meant for Manchester- of the three big operating companies Go North West have invested the least in new vehicles. Stagecoach have a lot more new Vehicles on order yet to arrive.

Of the 317 buses Go North West entered into the Permitted Fleet in September last year, 102 were brand new (50 x EV d/d and 52 x E200 s/d). All 102 were specifically ordered for Manchester, hence them all being built and delivered in TfGM spec.

 

[RHolmes]

102 were specifically ordered for Manchester, hence them all being built and delivered in TfGM spec.

The Enviro 200MMC’s were actually destined for Morebus originally

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

The Enviro 200MMC’s were actually destined for Morebus originally

Categorically untrue. Source?

 

[RHolmes]

Categorically untrue.

It’s not.

They were originally ordered for Morebus and intended for use on routes such as the M1/M2. Following the collapse of Yellow Buses, it was noted that greater capacity would required and Go-Ahead attempted to amend the order to E400MMC’s. However production had started and the decision was made to utilise the 52x E200MMC’s in Manchester and split the order between the two Bee Network depots. A large order was then placed for E400mmc’s at Morebus.

Hence Manchester got a random allocation of 52 new single deckers that wasn’t enough to see off the ‘misfit’ fleet of rogue Citaro’s, Eclipse 2’s, E200 classics and a long Opare solo that were cascaded into the fleet.

I believe you’ll find it mentioned buried somewhere in this forum

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

As somebody involved in the procurement I can reiterate that you’re wrong and that 52 buses were specifically ordered by GNW in line with bid commitments but for obvious reasons can’t share evidence so I’ll let your conjecture stand.

I remain surprised that you consider 102 brand new buses and a further 101 StreetDecks less than 3 years old, giving an extremely low average fleet age and 67% of fleet under 3 years, is suggestive of underinvestment on the part of Go-Ahead. A further 19 new EVs entering service in January, and likely a further 30 later in 2025.

 

[GusB]

It’s not.

They were originally ordered for Morebus and intended for use on routes such as the M1/M2. Following the collapse of Yellow Buses, it was noted that greater capacity would required and Go-Ahead attempted to amend the order to E400MMC’s. However production had started and the decision was made to utilise the 52x E200MMC’s in Manchester and split the order between the two Bee Network depots. A large order was then placed for E400mmc’s at Morebus.

As somebody involved in the procurement I can reiterate that you’re wrong and that 52 buses were specifically ordered by GNW in line with bid commitments but for obvious reasons can’t share evidence so I’ll let your conjecture stand.

Please provide your sources. If you're going to disagree with something that's posted here, make sure you have a suitable source to back up your claims.

You must also ensure that any jargon - "GNW" (Go North West in this case) is properly defined. Not everyone who reads the thread is going to be local to the area and you cannot assume that they know the local terminology.

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

Please provide your sources. If you're going to disagree with something that's posted here, make sure you have a suitable source to back up your claims.

You must also ensure that any jargon - "GNW" (Go North West in this case) is properly defined. Not everyone who reads the thread is going to be local to the area and you cannot assume that they know the local terminology.

Apologies, I hadn’t realised that factually incorrect posts made without evidence can’t be refuted. All I would say is that there isn’t any evidence to support the original claim, given that neither Go-Ahead nor ADL have ever made any public statement to suggest that a Morebus order was diverted to Manchester as an inadvertent afterthought (because it wasn’t).

To the claim that Go North West has invested less in its Bee Network fleet than Stagecoach or Metroline, I’d just reiterate: 102 of Go North West’s T1 Day 1 fleet was brand new (c30% of fleet). I’d be surprised if Stagecoach’s T2 Day 1 fleet had as high a percentage. Go North West also had no buses over the age of 15 on Day 1, compared with over 100 in Stagecoach’s Day 1 fleet. A final metric for comparison would be average fleet age, readily calculable from open data sources and painting the same picture.

Of course, Stagecoach has a very large order of new buses gradually coming on stream which will change this mix, but Go North West has further investment plans too. It’s a moving feast for all operators, and all tied to bid commitments and TfGM requirements (which regularly change). I just can’t see an argument to say GNW has been less committed to Bee Network fleet investment than the rest.

On a geeky aside, 6242 ran in passenger service for Go North West for the first time today, having transferred from Diamond last September with long term mechanical issues which have finally been rectified.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Apologies, I hadn’t realised that factually incorrect posts made without evidence can’t be refuted. All I would say is that there isn’t any evidence to support the original claim, given that neither Go-Ahead nor ADL have ever made any public statement to suggest that a Morebus order was diverted to Manchester as an inadvertent afterthought (because it wasn’t).

To the claim that Go North West has invested less in its Bee Network fleet than Stagecoach or Metroline, I’d just reiterate: 102 of Go North West’s T1 Day 1 fleet was brand new (c30% of fleet). I’d be surprised if Stagecoach’s T2 Day 1 fleet had as high a percentage. Go North West also had no buses over the age of 15 on Day 1, compared with over 100 in Stagecoach’s Day 1 fleet. A final metric for comparison would be average fleet age, readily calculable from open data sources and painting the same picture.

Of course, Stagecoach has a very large order of new buses gradually coming on stream which will change this mix, but Go North West has further investment plans too. It’s a moving feast for all operators, and all tied to bid commitments and TfGM requirements (which regularly change). I just can’t see an argument to say GNW has been less committed to Bee Network fleet investment than the rest.

On a geeky aside, 6242 ran in passenger service for Go North West for the first time today, having transferred from Diamond last September with long term mechanical issues which have finally been rectified.

To add my tuppence, you are absolutely correct apart from one thing, the 52 singles didn't land on day 1, they came about 3 months later hence the reserve fleet we had running, which used (amongst others) several "More" bus E200s, perhaps where the confusion lays??

Can we say what the next 19 are yet?

6242 has had absolutely alsorts to get it fit for the road, not least a new engine!

 

[M60lad]

Noted and rode on Stagecoach Manchester Bee Network E300 27944 yesterday which has now had the Bee Network interior fitted although for some reason its still running round in First Manchester livery.

I thought when these are refurbished they get repainted as well before re-entering service.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Noted and rode on Stagecoach Manchester Bee Network E300 27944 yesterday which has now had the Bee Network interior fitted although for some reason its still running round in First Manchester livery.

I thought when these are refurbished they get repainted as well before re-entering service.

Obviously not. Perhaps it was done in house by Stagecoach and hasn't yet got a slot in paintshop? One doesn't necessarily follow the other for various reasons.

 

[mayneway]

Noted and rode on Stagecoach Manchester Bee Network E300 27944 yesterday which has now had the Bee Network interior fitted although for some reason its still running round in First Manchester livery.

I thought when these are refurbished they get repainted as well before re-entering service.

The E300’s are being painted at Birkenhead and have the interior refurbs at Anston.
One of queens roads E300’s was taken to Birkenhead last week for repaint and will return without interior refurb, whether it re-enters service or goes straight to Anston - time will tell, but as I understand it only one from each depot will be away at any one time.

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

To add my tuppence, you are absolutely correct apart from one thing, the 52 singles didn't land on day 1, they came about 3 months later hence the reserve fleet we had running, which used (amongst others) several "More" bus E200s, perhaps where the confusion lays??

Can we say what the next 19 are yet?

6242 has had absolutely alsorts to get it fit for the road, not least a new engine!

The next 19 will start landing from across the Irish Sea soon enough

 

[Leyland Bus]

The next 19 will start landing from across the Irish Sea soon enough

Indeed they will!

 

[CJ1]

The next 19 will start landing from across the Irish Sea soon enough

Are these vehicles electric??

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

Yes, Wrightbus Electroliner double decks. Current electric routes 36,37,471 to go 100% electric and additional corridor to be electrified (won’t name which; suspect TfGM will want to announce).

 

[CJ1]

Yes, Wrightbus Electroliner double decks. Current electric routes 36,37,471 to go 100% electric and additional corridor to be electrified (won’t name which; suspect TfGM will want to announce).

Ooo nice! Very excited for them!! Are we talking them getting delivered this year or January? Are any GB Kite Electroliners getting ordered, as well?

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

Ooo nice! Very excited for them!! Are we talking them getting delivered this year or January? Are any GB Kite Electroliners getting ordered, as well?

Delivered Autumn/Winter ahead of entry into service in January. Just doubles, no singles.

 

[CJ1]

Delivered Autumn/Winter ahead of entry into service in January. Just doubles, no singles.

I’m not saying you’re wrong at all, but where do you get your information from? (Just wondering)

 

[Ace Of Pacer]

I’m not saying you’re wrong at all, but where do you get your information from? (Just wondering)

I’m a senior manager for a Bee Network operator.

 

[CJ1]

I’m a senior manager for a Bee Network operator.

Ahh right. Thanks! Wondered where you got all the info lol

 

[neilcobbe]

Delivered Autumn/Winter ahead of entry into service in January. Just doubles, no singles.

My best guess, based on no knowledge whatsoever(!) is a Wigan to Leigh route so every borough can see electrics. There's a few filling shakers currently on the 609.

 

[xitz2012@gmail]

My best guess, based on no knowledge whatsoever(!) is a Wigan to Leigh route so every borough can see electrics. There's a few filling shakers currently on the 609.

My guess would’ve been the 524

 

[Class 466]

My guess would’ve been the 524

Be nice if it was Vantage - that’s what was rumoured before anyway - would please customers too who detest the Evosetis that have been plonked on there by Go North West.

However I note that at only 19 buses that wouldn’t be enough to cover that service.

 

[Citibus]

Currently Go North West fleet has:
19 ADL 400 of which 13 buses are on the 609 and the rest on schools
upto 32 Volvo B5LH on Vantage routes, of which 5 are Evosetis,+ 2 Gemini 3 with guidewheels

 

[pokemonsuper9]

My best guess, based on no knowledge whatsoever(!) is a Wigan to Leigh route so every borough can see electrics.

Wigan (Borough) occasionally sees Electric buses when they're on the 582 (Leigh-Bolton), which happened today.

2014 - LG73 FWJ

BYD D8UR-DD ADL Enviro400EV

bustimes.org

 

[CJ1]

Delivered Autumn/Winter ahead of entry into service in January. Just doubles, no singles.

Will the Electroliners get an M (Manchester) reg or something else? I think First Leeds and York have some MA24 and ML73 Electroliners so it is possible.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Currently Go North West fleet has:
19 ADL 400 of which 13 buses are on the 609 and the rest on schools
upto 32 Volvo B5LH on Vantage routes, of which 5 are Evosetis,+ 2 Gemini 3 with guidewheels

Kinda feels like the Vantage routes will be those mooted 30 for next year, doesn't it? Especially as StreetDeck Electroliners can be guidewheel fitted (the latest Leeds examples are).