LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[signed]

but tend not to have such swingeing restrictions on their Advance style tickets as we do

SNCF would like a word

 

[ainsworth74]

To be fair the "Romance" style European railways pretty much all do something similar, but tend not to have such swingeing restrictions on their Advance style tickets as we do (e.g. no breaks, no starting late/finishing early unless the railway randomly deems you not to be avoiding a fare, ticket has no value if you miss the train*) which date from when they were cheap bargain basement fares and not the default. And aside from "Eurostar Red" which seems to be the foremost authority in overcharging to excess, most of the fares top out at vaguely reasonable sums so even if you buy one on the day you don't get ripped off.

Even the 70 minute flex retains pretty much all the key disadvantages of the Advance fare.

* Even Ryanair doesn't do that, there is a fee for rebooking but they do offer it, you don't lose all your money unless the ticket was really cheap.

Indeed, I'm not inherently opposed to this idea of moving to a long distance railway where effectively there are two tiers of ticket in that you have an expensive but highly flexible ticket and then a cheaper but more restrictive ticket. But trying to shoe-horn that into our existing railway by adopting all the worst aspects of our present approach to booked train only tickets, whilst jacking up the prices massively and pretending that this is some panacea that will improve things for passengers rather than just a way to rinse them rankles and should be opposed.

SNCF would like a word

Oh I dunno, I managed to book a ticket on an Intercités for the right train on the wrong date and when I realised the error was able to exchange the ticket online in about five minutes and even got a small refund as the correct date was cheaper. My understanding (and I'm by no means an expert!) is that exchanges and refunds, even on the lowest tier of SNCF ticket, are free until a week before departure but after that a fee applies:

Loisir fares (Prem’s, 2nd and 1st class tickets) for TGV INOUI and INTERCITÉS trains requiring booking:

• Exchanges and refunds are free up to 7 days before departure.
• Starting 6 days before departure, you must pay a) an exchange/refund fee of €19 per person per journey for TGV INOUI or b) 40% of the fare for INTERCITÉS trains requiring booking, up to a maximum of €15.
• Starting 30 minutes before departure, exchanges are only allowed for the same journey on the same day, subject to the fees described above.
• If your journey includes one or more connections, you will be charged only one fee.
• After your train departs, tickets are not exchangeable or refundable unless they have been released for booking before departure.

https://www.sncf-voyageurs.com/en/customer-service/exchanges-and-cancellations/

Much friendlier than the UK! Personally I would be much happier if UK Advances were fully exchangeable or refundable up to a 7 days prior to departure. Might help reduce the sting of moving to a book in advance long distance railway if we introduced some more customer friendly provisions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, I'm not inherently opposed to this idea of moving to a long distance railway where effectively there are two tiers of ticket in that you have an expensive but highly flexible ticket and then a cheaper but more restrictive ticket. But trying to shoe-horn that into our existing railway by adopting all the worst aspects of our present approach to booked train only tickets, whilst jacking up the prices massively and pretending that this is some panacea that will improve things for passengers rather than just a way to rinse them rankles and should be opposed.

Yes, the basis of this specific trial is fundamentally dishonest.

Oh I dunno, I managed to book a ticket on an Intercités for the right train on the wrong date and when I realised the error was able to exchange the ticket online in about five minutes and even got a small refund as the correct date was cheaper. My understanding (and I'm by no means an expert!) is that exchanges and refunds, even on the lowest tier of SNCF ticket, are free until a week before departure but after that a fee applies:

https://www.sncf-voyageurs.com/en/customer-service/exchanges-and-cancellations/

Much friendlier than the UK! Personally I would be much happier if UK Advances were fully exchangeable or refundable up to a 7 days prior to departure. Might help reduce the sting of moving to a book in advance long distance railway if we introduced some more customer friendly provisions.

Totally agree. If this is the way we end up going, and it seems likely it will be, we should make Advances far more customer-friendly. They are no longer bargain bucket cheap tickets which make sense to be heavily restricted, they are the default.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==

SNCF would like a word

SNCF don't go around saying you can't leave the station when changing trains, nor do they look to penalise you if you get off a couple of stops early. Some of the provisions applying to UK Advances are heading into the territory of unfair contracts in law (but sadly not far enough into that territory for them to be stopped from doing it).

 

[BRX]

My (Labour) MP, on an LNER route has written back to me and so far is essentially ignoring my request for them to go to Haigh about the trial, instead relying on some copy-and-paste lines about how GBR will make it all better.

I got a similar reply from my MP (also Labour).

I've written back to them to try and emphasise that the point is that the politicians involved in running GBR need to have a full understanding of the issue.

 

[Hadders]

I got a similar reply from my MP (also Labour).

I've written back to them to try and emphasise that the point is that the politicians involved in running GBR need to have a full understanding of the issue.

I wrote a brief paper for my MP setting out my concerns about this.

Not heard back yet…

 

[dcsprior]

I wonder how well used is the Haymarket loophole on ECML to Edinburgh.

Return September 7th to September 14th goes from £107.70 with a 16-25 to £60.15 with a Super Off-Peak return. Nearly 50% cheaper with allowed BOJ.

LNER are within scope of FOI, aren't they? So you could submit a request for this.

There are exceptions for commercially-sensitive data though so may want to word the request to say that if they can't give you the raw data to give you something which gives useful info without being sensitive.

 

[Haywain]

LNER are within scope of FOI, aren't they? So you could submit a request for this.

Why would you need to? Isn't the number of journeys annually in the public domain anyway?

 

[signed]

Isn't the number of journeys annually in the public domain anyway?

Are specific station pair data public? I can only find https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/usage/passenger-rail-usage/ (the link leads to data about passenger rail usage) which only has sector based numbers.

Either way, I will wait till the end of year to FOI for '24 data

 

[Haywain]

Are specific station pair data public?

Yes - linked in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/orr-origin-destination-matrix-2022-23.263200/

 

[signed]

Thanks to that post I ended up on Flow Statistics (https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/HYM/, by @RailAleFan), for FY22-23 we have 8855 to Kings Cross, 4310 to Newcastle, and 1945 to York for Haymarket. For KGX-Waverley 994177.

Let's wait for the '24 and '25 (end of the trial expected date) for the loophole result

 

[Haywain]

Thanks to that post I ended up on Flow Statistics (https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/HYM/, by @RailAleFan), for FY22-23 we have 8855 to Kings Cross, 4310 to Newcastle, and 1945 to York for Haymarket. For KGX-Waverley 994177.

Let's wait for the '24 and '25 (end of the trial expected date) for the loophole result

I don't think you will see a difference of any great significance. And, by the way, Edinburgh to Newcastle and to York are not part of the trial.

 

[signed]

I don't think you will see a difference of any great significance

Yeah, it's not that publicly known (else it would have been closed ages ago by preventing BOJ). I'm mostly interested to see if those data will reflect it, even if minor

 

[Bikeman78]

Oh I dunno, I managed to book a ticket on an Intercités for the right train on the wrong date and when I realised the error was able to exchange the ticket online in about five minutes and even got a small refund as the correct date was cheaper. My understanding (and I'm by no means an expert!) is that exchanges and refunds, even on the lowest tier of SNCF ticket, are free until a week before departure but after that a fee applies:

I made the mistake of buying a Southern Daysave for the wrong date. Zero interest in giving me a refund. The website is not very user friendly. If you choose the date first and then click the Daysave button, it randomly changes the date. In my case, it was one day earlier. Stupid me didn't spot that. I couldn't be bothered to argue for 20 quid. The initial response didn't even address any of the points made in my complaint so taking it further would have been a waste of time.

 

[MrJeeves]

Posts about the simpler fares expansion have been split out into a new thread, where future discussion should take place.

Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

Mod note: split from existing thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-to-pilot-removal-of-off-peak-tickets.261183/ Expansion of 70-min Flex for journeys made from 30-9-24...

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