• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

End in sight for the ASLEF dispute: Offer now made

Status
Not open for further replies.

DJP78

On Moderation
Joined
26 Nov 2019
Messages
187
Location
Bristol
I think if I read things correctly that going forward the DfT will no longer be involved in pay talks (praise the Lord) and that we will return to individual negotiations directly between local council and the train operator concerned.
Yes. That’s my understanding too

ASLEF “Pay negotiations for 2025-26 will now be conducted in the normal way, by company councils at a company by company level”.

Good news indeed for the time being at least. Be very interesting to see how things progress as we move deeper into GBR territory and what the implications will be for harmonisation.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,835
Now don't misquote me.

I never said there had been *no* changes, what I actually said:



And I stand by every word. There have been changes, but they have been slow to take place, have been met with resistance at every turn and much slower than other public sector organisations e.g. NHS or Teaching and definitely slower than in the private sector.
So which "steam age practises" were still in place in the 1980s?
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
18,010
Location
East Anglia
Here we go. I’ve now found the quote going forward…


“Future pay:
Pay negotiations for 2025-26 will now be conducted in the normal way, by company councils at a company by company level. This may include changes to terms and conditions, as has been the case in the past and will be dealt with as previously, pre-dispute”
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
4,676
The normal behaviour of Retirement Pension calculations is that the payment in April rises by the larger of the increase of the CPI (not CPIH) and the Average Income for all earnings. The Triple Lock adds an increase to 2.5% if, and only if, the larger of the two increases of the Indices is less than 2.5%. So it gives a floor to make up for past years where the pension was under indexed. That amount only apply to the basic state pension and anything extra such as second state pension, graduated pension and extra pension from deferment are at CPI only.

The Indexes used are D7GT (12 month CPI) as in Sept of the previous year and KAC3 (12 month all wages) as in July of the previous year.
From April 2017 to April 2024 the real triple lock has only affected pensions in one year, and that was an uplift of 2% in April 2021.

The notion that the Triple lock is to be envied by Rail workers is misplaced and pretty insulting.
Not quite correct. The Triple Lock is resulting in an upward drift in the State Pension in real terms, due to the fact that it cherry picks the bests of three measures each year. It averages around 1% each year. The flat 2.5% element is just one factor in that, but even without that the cherry-picking of the other two measures still results in a steady upwards drift, and would itself be a bad idea. By the way, 2.5% has been used four times, since the TL was introduced just over a decade ago.

I've done a couple of threads on X that explain why the TL is a really bad idea, and what might replace it. Anyway, it's well off topic for
this discussion, so I'll just give a link here, rather than go into any further detail.

 

NSEWonderer

Established Member
Joined
5 Dec 2020
Messages
2,100
Location
London
Here we go. I’ve now found the quote going forward…


“Future pay:
Pay negotiations for 2025-26 will now be conducted in the normal way, by company councils at a company by company level. This may include changes to terms and conditions, as has been the case in the past and will be dealt with as previously, pre-dispute”
Interesting, would like to see how it roughly works come GBR as by then a few TOCs would be part of it. And so mostly one company rather than the current many we have now, unless it will be handled region by region for the TOCs already by then part of it.
 

Ivor

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2019
Messages
468
Location
Originally Balham & now The West Sussex Coastway
Ah, would that be the same pensioners who have benefitted from triple lock the past 5 years? All funded by train drivers who have been generating money for the economy. I bet they don't mention that.
The Tories suspended the triple lock for the 2022-2023 financial year so I better chase the DWP if they paid it in the past 5 years as they owe me money.

And as you’ve pointed out the triple lock “All funded by train drivers who have been generating money for the economy” I didn’t know that.

I’m in my early seventies, working & still generating money for the economy but I’m at a loss now what I am actually funding.
 

Thumper1127

Member
Joined
19 Jan 2019
Messages
172
They've also blamed junior doctors and wasting money sending concerned citizens to jails for the loss of the winter heating allowance which is now means tested, much to the annoyance of rich pensioners who liked a nice little £200 bonus (or even those living abroad where it isn't even cold). I expect other rail staff will be blamed when a deal for the RMT is offered on the 20th. The fact the allowance is still there for those who need it, and it isn't and never was part of the pension anyway, seems conveniently left out every time.

Meanwhile The Telegraph (sorry, can't quote it here) have regurgitated a story with mentions of drivers being able to demand a new break if interrupted by a manager and other things to imply they're militant lunatics and absolutely not deserving of a pay rise.

I see they didn't mention that of this pay increase, 40% goes straight back to the treasury!
As does everyone’s who is on higher rate tax. Just watch what happens in the October budget, I predict that higher rate tax payers (I am one but ex railway) will have their tax relief on pensions reduced to 30 rather than 40% (full) relief. That means a Driver’s take home pay will fall so the Government can put money into things like, NHS, railways etc. Gordon Brown did a pension raid back in the day by changing the tax relief for private pensions by effectively taxing dividends pensions funds received. It devastated the pension industry which, by its very nature, must be able to plan 10, 20 years forward. Changes to taxation of pensions is totally destabilising, it seriously affects people’s retirement.

I’ve noted some comments about the triple lock on pensions. It’s effectively a double lock, the 2% only kicking in if average earnings or inflation are below that. The essence of the idea was to progressively improve to plight of pensioners who had been neglected for years (anyone remember Gordon Brown’s 75p a week rise?)! It’s not sustainable long term but it is serving a purpose. And don’t forget that when you (collectively and me) will benefit in our own retirement from the compound effect.

Glad you have been made a reasonable offer, I’m ex railway, pro railway and passionate about the industry and its staff. I haven’t posted on this forum for ages but felt the need to give a balanced view to the original comment of “40% going back to the treasury”.
 

66701GBRF

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2017
Messages
821
Just for perspective seeing as it was so long ago, what was the original "offer" two years ago that kicked all this off?
 

Confused52

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2018
Messages
305
The Tories suspended the triple lock for the 2022-2023 financial year so I better chase the DWP if they paid it in the past 5 years as they owe me money.

And as you’ve pointed out the triple lock “All funded by train drivers who have been generating money for the economy” I didn’t know that.

I’m in my early seventies, working & still generating money for the economy but I’m at a loss now what I am actually funding.
The triple lock was changed that year to be a triple lock where the average earning factor was replaced by the CPI for one year only, which was already a factor in the lock. They did this because the increase was too high and artificially inflated.

I have read johnactuary's comments but he seems to forget that there are a large number of folk who have inadequate other pensions. Furthermore occupations pensions are often capped at levels which are less than inflation and average wages.
Comparisons between state pension levels and Train Drivers salaries, and the total pensions they will yield, are insulting for many.
 

Efini92

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
2,002
This is not correct. Most, if not all drivers received a pay rise for the year 2019/20. It's 2020/21 and 2021/22 when no increase was given, hence the current offer being backdated to 2022/23 and the years subsequent.
Apart from a few a multi year deals, most didn’t receive a pay rise in 2019.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,230
Location
Bolton
This is not correct. Most, if not all drivers received a pay rise for the year 2019/20. It's 2020/21 and 2021/22 when no increase was given, hence the current offer being backdated to 2022/23 and the years subsequent.
I think you're remembering 2018-19 pay deals that were agreed in 2019-20.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,230
Location
Bolton
Am I only one who thinks the offer a tad low, 5% no strings is fine but I'm sure other TOCs that aren't under DfT control got better deals. ARL IIRC offered 6.5% to their drivers according to someone here.
Probably not on the same terms as this though? Also London Overground and TfL Rail compete for staff on most grades with London Underground, the franchised TOCs mostly just with one another.
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
4,676
I have read johnactuary's comments but he seems to forget that there are a large number of folk who have inadequate other pensions.
It's a good point, and I do cover it in the linked threads.

TLDR: Better to target those with inadequate pension provision elsewhere by pensions credit (increasing it if necessary) than paying ever increasing state pension amounts to all receipents, a large proportion of whom don't need it. Don't forget who pays for today's state pension - it's those currently working and paying tax and NI. The ageing population is putting a demographic timebomb under the increasing cost of state pension provision, and the triple lock is making that timebomb even worse by increasing it in real terms. year on year. Unfortunately, no government is willing to bite the bullet, although sensible alternatives exist, so the problem will keep getting worse, year on year, and people will wonder why taxes keep on going up.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
2,770
Location
Northampton
As does everyone’s who is on higher rate tax. Just watch what happens in the October budget, I predict that higher rate tax payers (I am one but ex railway) will have their tax relief on pensions reduced to 30 rather than 40% (full) relief. That means a Driver’s take home pay will fall so the Government can put money into things like, NHS, railways etc. Gordon Brown did a pension raid back in the day by changing the tax relief for private pensions by effectively taxing dividends pensions funds received. It devastated the pension industry which, by its very nature, must be able to plan 10, 20 years forward. Changes to taxation of pensions is totally destabilising, it seriously affects people’s retirement.

I’ve noted some comments about the triple lock on pensions. It’s effectively a double lock, the 2% only kicking in if average earnings or inflation are below that. The essence of the idea was to progressively improve to plight of pensioners who had been neglected for years (anyone remember Gordon Brown’s 75p a week rise?)! It’s not sustainable long term but it is serving a purpose. And don’t forget that when you (collectively and me) will benefit in our own retirement from the compound effect.

Glad you have been made a reasonable offer, I’m ex railway, pro railway and passionate about the industry and its staff. I haven’t posted on this forum for ages but felt the need to give a balanced view to the original comment of “40% going back to the treasury”.

Indeed.

And, of course, the Railway Pension Funds are private pension funds; there's a correlation between the decline in reserves of my railway pension fund and this action.

The dividends are taxed when paid to the pension fund; what remains is taxed when its paid to members.
 

whoosh

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
1,623
I assume this is for most TOCs not All TOCs, for example the Elizabeth Line and TFW won't be getting this deal?
Elizabeth Line, London Overground, Merseyrail, Tyne & Wear Metro, Pre Metro Operations (Stourbridge Shuttle), Transport for Wales, all Open Access Operators, and all Freight Operating Companies, have all done deals.
Scotrail is a separate negotiation for 2024, but had a deal for 2022 and another for 2023.
Do driver pay negotiations run on April - end of March blocks then?

So the final year of this pay deal would run up to and including March 2025?
Yes and no.

East Midlands Trains driver's pay anniversary is January, several are in April, some are May (Cross Country and Avanti West Coast I think), Great Northern, Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express are October.
 

RailExplorer

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2018
Messages
186
Haven't those already settled this year?
ASLEF is formally in dispute with Elizabeth Line with ballots for action being sent out in the coming weeks for action short of strike, or strike (this is regarding the lack of a suitable pay offer for 2024). I believe it's the first time a union at Elizabeth Line has been in dispute with the company.
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,230
Location
Bolton
ASLEF is formally in dispute with Elizabeth Line with ballots for action being sent out in the coming weeks for action short of strike, or strike (this is regarding the pay offer for 2024, or lack of). I believe it's the first time a union at Elizabeth Line has been in dispute with the company.
Industrial action was definitely called in January and May 2023. I can't remember if it actually went ahead.
 

Dstock7080

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2010
Messages
3,121
Location
West London
ASLEF is formally in dispute with Elizabeth Line with ballots for action being sent out in the coming weeks for action short of strike, or strike (this is regarding the lack of a suitable pay offer for 2024).
ASLEF also balloting at LU for 2024, rejecting 3.8% offer and failure to agree on assurances that changes to terms and conditions won’t be imposed.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
18,010
Location
East Anglia
Interesting, would like to see how it roughly works come GBR as by then a few TOCs would be part of it. And so mostly one company rather than the current many we have now, unless it will be handled region by region for the TOCs already by then part of it.

Unless it stays similar to now in some sense. Either way it won’t worry me too much in future.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,877
Yes your correct. Southeastern drivers have had to wait over 5 years for this deal. We will still be under 65k with London waiting added on top.
Similar at GA, going up to £60.5k
 

Signal_Box

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2021
Messages
739
Location
UK
RMT expecting an offer on 22nd August with regards Network Rail Signallers, Maintenance and Control, more talks that have gone on, and on, and on.

The initial offer was rejected so hopefully the new one will be accepted, it’ll be January again very soon at this rate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

DfT Offer To Aslef

2022 5 percent 2023 4.75 percent 2024 4.5 percent.

To be put to referendum. Expect this is to be accepted. No changes to Ts and Cs.

Credit where it’s due, well done ASLEF and my driver colleagues.

I wonder how many drivers 60+ will decide the back pay is sufficient to retire sooner than expected or planned ?
 
Last edited:

NSEWonderer

Established Member
Joined
5 Dec 2020
Messages
2,100
Location
London
The initial offer was rejected so hopefully the new one will be accepted, it’ll be January again very soon at this rate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Credit where it’s due, well done ASLEF and my driver colleagues.

I wonder how many drivers 60+ will decide the back pay is sufficient to retire sooner than expected or planned ?
Quite a few I'd not be surprised that sone will call it time. I know some a few drivers from 4 different TOCs who were waiting for a decent deal with Backpay. At least one of those TOCs(possibly also a second) have some trainee posts that have recently appeared.
 

PLY2AYS

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2024
Messages
199
Location
London
I am not a financial advisor...

It takes the passing of a year for current salary to be reflected in railway pension level.
Seems as though the latter half of 2025 is going to be a frantic time for the railway, both with franchises ending and the shortage of drivers growing bigger.
Depot I left was anticipating losing 18 drivers in the next year… one I’ve just joined has at least 16 in training, unsure how many they’re predicting to retire, but they’ve not filled their links yet!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top