ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[ainsworth74]

Feels like we're rapidly approaching some weird chicken and egg type scenario (who came first, the passenger or the railway? ASLEF or the consumer? The train or the driver?)

 

[Starmill]

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not state that all or any of these practices are in place at LNER or any specific TOC, and I will not respond to seriatim refutation or rebuttal. I am citing them as examples of categories of behaviour that belong in the history books.

It does rather undermine your other, relatively well-grounded examples, though, to include the one about microwaves, which, on the face of it, seems deeply unserious, and it appears appears nobody other than you even really understands. The one about restarting breaks because a manager "interrupted" by saying hello also appears totally unsupported by actual evidence. Both of these seem like things which could have been lifted straight from the tabloids without the first bit of scrutiny.

 

[dk1]

If the traveling public don’t travel, ASLEF will cease to exist. Circular.

You know as well as I do that that’s never going to happen. The unions represent their membership first and foremost regardless of who agrees with that on here.

 

[mandub]

PR disaster for ASLEF and us train drivers.
Just wait a couple of months until the pay deal is sorted.
For now you could just make a big public fuss about LNER not respecting the spirit of the new industrial relations landscape and stating you're willing to give them a further chance to come back to the table while the pay award is voted on.
How difficult could it be to play smart here???
Beggars belief

 

[TreacleMiller]

Were LNER offering the same rates that they were paying managers to non-union members willing to do RDW?

No.

Rumours floated around but I've had it from a driver who is doing RDW exactly what he's being paid - the previously agreed to rate.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You know as well as I do that that’s never going to happen. The unions represent their membership first and foremost regardless of who agrees with that on here.

Never say never.

 

[dk1]

Never say never.

On this I will.

 

[TreacleMiller]

If you don't know what people are arguing for, then ask them. Making up an obviously weak argument and dismissing it is the strawman fallacy.

Some of the outdated working practices in parts of the railway industry include:

• Refusal to use electronic means such as iPads to receive communications such as late notices or TSLs
• Staff members claiming an entitlement to restart the duration of a break if a manager speaks to the staff member during the break, even as little as saying hello
• Claiming of "walking time" of 10-15 minutes for distances that can be covered in less than two
• Strict demarcation of locations where work will be carried out where there is no rationale or benefit to the business
• Demanding money for use of scanning equipment to read e-tickets
• Refusing to use videoconferencing technology such as Zoom for meetings
• Refusing rest day working and then objecting to other competent employees working those rest days
• Claiming of paid time off every six months to check that the staff member's health hasn't been adversely impacted by the microwave in the break room

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not state that all or any of these practices are in place at LNER or any specific TOC, and I will not respond to seriatim refutation or rebuttal. I am citing them as examples of categories of behaviour that belong in the history books.

So, where did one dig this up from then? I'm assuming you have access to every private professional agreement for every TOC and each grade.

You are here making this statement again and yet by your own words - won't stand by it and don't know if it's happening in the case of LNER.

I can categorically tell you they aren't.

 

[OliverReed]

The big inefficiency is this recruiting below headcount nonsense. I joined in 2003. Before that I worked for a Canadian company who outsourced call centres. Our rostering tools looked space age to the railways even 22 years ago. We managed to roster 2000 employees 24/7/365 with an office of five people.

That’s the problem. This reliance on Overtime needs to go. If the headcounts were full. You wouldn’t need so many managers and resource people full stop. You could actually use better systems.

I think ASLEF are daft to pull this now though. Drivers can hide in the cab. It’ll be onboard staff who’ll get assaulted this Xmas, not them.

 

[Economist]

I can't help but think they'd have been better waiting until the local pay talks take place next year and being really intransigent then. The right-wing media will be loving this, it gives the impression that ASLEF are already biting the hand that's just fed them and feeds into the anti-union narrative. If this impacts the national level deal on offer I'll be absolutely furious - with ASLEF.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Yes I do think that it's time for Mr Horne to move on personally. But I fear that he might be moved onto somewhere within GBR where he can do even more damage...

I do not trust the current LNER management because they removed the off peak fares London to Newcastle and Edinburgh and these have still not been reinstated so I want the current LNER management gone not just from LNER but from the railway industry so nobody else is tempted to remove any off peak fares and I want the off peak fares London to Newcastle and Edinburgh immediately reinstated.

 

[dk1]

If this impacts the national level deal on offer I'll be absolutely furious - with ASLEF.

Completely seperate. No need to worry.

 

[12LDA28C]

You might disagree - but at the end of the day, the railway exists to serve the nation, not to employ people on favourable terms.

Have you considered that the two things might not be mutually exclusive and that a happy workforce 'on favourable terms' might provide a service that 'serves the nation' better?

 

[Starmill]

The big inefficiency is this recruiting below headcount nonsense. I joined in 2003. Before that I worked for a Canadian company who outsourced call centres. Our rostering tools looked space age to the railways even 22 years ago. We managed to roster 2000 employees 24/7/365 with an office of five people.

That’s the problem. This reliance on Overtime needs to go. If the headcounts were full. You wouldn’t need so many managers and resource people full stop. You could actually use better systems.

I think ASLEF are daft to pull this now though. Drivers can hide in the cab. It’ll be onboard staff who’ll get assaulted this Xmas, not them.

It would be far more professional to allow the headcount to exceed the target number by a slightly larger proportion than is currently allowed.

 

[whoosh]

ASLEF have very harmonious relationships with many operators so whilst perhaps a notice of intent to take significant strike action if grievances weren't adequately addressed would have been a better opening gambit the fact they've gone to defcon3 straight away is an indication that behind teh scences things have deteriorated very significantly. I also very much doubt Haigh would have gone so public over resolving the national pay dispute if she knew this was just waiting in the wings. This is a considerable failure of OLR which is no better than a private operator if not worse as it costs a small fortune to run through all its consultants.

ASLEF had a very harmonious relationship all the way from privatisation in 1996 with GNER, National Express East Coast, East Coast, Virgin Trains East Coast, and LNER.... up until 2022. There were no strikes, or threats of strikes, or overtime bans for all that time.

Announcing weekends of strikes over failure to adhere to agreements for two years (that's TWO YEARS!) isn't 'defcon3 straight away'. There has been plenty of opportunity to resolve this for two years. It isn't an 'opening gambit'. It is the next stage to try and progress to talking.

PR disaster for ASLEF and us train drivers.
Just wait a couple of months until the pay deal is sorted.
For now you could just make a big public fuss about LNER not respecting the spirit of the new industrial relations landscape and stating you're willing to give them a further chance to come back to the table while the pay award is voted on.
How difficult could it be to play smart here???
Beggars belief

I don't know what's been said behind closed doors - whether that was attempted or not. But... I do think this is possibly the most sensible post in this thread, and perhaps conveys the feeling of a lack of pragmatism that is frustrating other posters.

 

[12LDA28C]

As expected, they're all jumping on the bandwagon. This is precisely why the previous government was correct to ignore them. Once you agree a deal with one union, all the others jump in wanting the same deal!

Sorry, I must have missed something here. Exactly who is jumping on what 'bandwagon'?

 

[357]

It would be far more professional to allow the headcount to exceed the target number by a slightly larger proportion than is currently allowed.

This is done in a way by having "spare" turns in the roster.

The companies know exactly how many staff they need. They target lower to save money and then complain when it doesn't work out in their favour.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Once again the Union Bashers are out in full fury.

As far as I've read this is down to agreements consistently being broken over a period of 2 years. Some may say its the worst time to announce but it has been 2 years apparently from what the article says.

 

[dk1]

Sorry, I must have missed something here. Exactly who is jumping on what 'bandwagon'?

Me too (scratches head).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

Once again the Union Bashers are out in full fury.

Probably still seething from Wednesday’s announcement.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Some of the outdated working practices in parts of the railway industry include:

• Refusal to use electronic means such as iPads to receive communications such as late notices or TSLs
• Staff members claiming an entitlement to restart the duration of a break if a manager speaks to the staff member during the break, even as little as saying hello
• Claiming of "walking time" of 10-15 minutes for distances that can be covered in less than two
• Strict demarcation of locations where work will be carried out where there is no rationale or benefit to the business
• Demanding money for use of scanning equipment to read e-tickets
• Refusing to use videoconferencing technology such as Zoom for meetings
• Refusing rest day working and then objecting to other competent employees working those rest days
• Claiming of paid time off every six months to check that the staff member's health hasn't been adversely impacted by the microwave in the break room

Interestingly, all of those examples were listed in The Telegraph‘s article today.

I’d hate to suggest that the newspaper of Isabel Oakeshott and Camilla Tominey might be telling porkies, but I’d certainly like to see some actual evidence that these things actually exist and happen.

The only one that may happen is the walking time, but that’s really about ensuring the break time is protected and I’d love to see the specific examples. It’s theoretically a short walk at, say, Euston, but in reality it often isn’t.

 

[12LDA28C]

I suspect in the event that a driver (manager or otherwise) was needed to provide comfort to another driver who had been involved in such an accident then the public would be understanding (possibly even some of the train that driver was going to be driving).

However, not having the driver (manager or otherwise) drive a train because they "might" be needed for an incident that has not actually happened seems like an expensive luxury that could be dispensed with.

I would have thought that professional support would be more valuable than a driver manager, but my industry is slightly different.

Driver Managers are often required to undertake 'On Call' duties during which they may be required to attend a fatality or other serious incident suffered by one of their drivers. Imagine if a driver has a fatality at Welwyn and the On-Call DM is driving a train at York? It doesn't sound ideal to me - hardly an 'expensive luxury' as you claim.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

The reason that you cant compare the rail industry to other industries is that the other industries dont have a bottomless pit of government money to bale them out. LNER and the other railway companies would have either had to shrink their operations considerably or would have gone bust given their financial performance in the 4 years post pandemic.

And that's an acceptable outcome is it? Clearly you believe there's no value in public transport. If you want to make a reference to a 'bottomless pit' of Government money, say hello to the NHS.

 

[66701GBRF]

Driver Managers are often required to undertake 'On Call' duties during which they may be required to attend a fatality or other serious incident suffered by one of their drivers. Imagine if a driver has a fatality at Welwyn and the On-Call DM is driving a train at York? It doesn't sound ideal to me - hardly an 'expensive luxury' as you claim.

Ideal, no. But sounds like one of those situations you just have to deal with if and when it happens. There must be more than one DM in that geographical area that can assist. Same applies if the on-call DM is dealing with an on-call incident and then another incident happens somewhere else.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Interestingly, all of those examples were listed in The Telegraph‘s article today.

The costly, restrictive Spanish practices train drivers get to keep despite a bumper pay rise

Labour’s agreement with train drivers’ union Aslef fails to secure any reforms to outdated, costly and restrictive working practices

www.telegraph.co.uk

Yet the agreement, described by Mick Whelan, the Aslef general secretary, as a “clean deal”, failed to secure any reforms to outdated, costly and restrictive working practices, colloquially known as Spanish practices.

Last year it was revealed that one of these costly working practices includes the right to paid time off for medical checks if staff use microwaves.

The policy, dating from the 1980s, and first reported by The Sun, read: “All staff working with microwave ovens shall be permitted to take time off from work, with pay, for a medical check of any effects on them from the microwave ovens.”

Another practice consists of re-starting scheduled breaks whenever passing bosses greet staff on their downtime.

“Imagine your line manager stopping to say ‘hello’ when you are on a formal break,” said Huw Merriman, the former rail minister, in 2022. “In the office or on-site, that’s a positive sign of teamwork. Ludicrously, in the rail industry the rule book decrees that the break has to restart from the beginning.”

The Sun says it so it must be true. It’s not like The Sun would make stuff up(!)

 

[Topological]

Driver Managers are often required to undertake 'On Call' duties during which they may be required to attend a fatality or other serious incident suffered by one of their drivers. Imagine if a driver has a fatality at Welwyn and the On-Call DM is driving a train at York? It doesn't sound ideal to me - hardly an 'expensive luxury' as you claim.

Maybe I am missing the number of driver managers that there are. But then if there is only the one at York then presumably this whole strike is pointless as it is all about one driver manager working one train.

IF there are multiple driver managers then there would presumably be one within a reasonable distance and as near, or reasonably similarly near, to any incident as the office?

So the potential that an incident happens further from the train being driven by the driver manager seems than the office still makes it sound like an expensive luxury not to run the train.

Again, I am an outsider and may be missing something obvious.

 

[12LDA28C]

So ASLEF exist, but many of the members do not*

* Meaning that there do not need to be as many drivers and hence driver numbers reduce.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

If the traveling public don’t travel, ASLEF will cease to exist. Circular.

During Covid, when the public was literally told not to travel, many Operators reduced services to around 20% of the normal provision. How many drivers lost their jobs and how many members did ASLEF lose during this time?

 

[CC 72100]

Driver Managers are often required to undertake 'On Call' duties during which they may be required to attend a fatality or other serious incident suffered by one of their drivers. Imagine if a driver has a fatality at Welwyn and the On-Call DM is driving a train at York?

Then you call the next level up of on-call.
The reality of on-call is that for Managers, the day job does have to continue, so they still may be out and about assessing, attending meetings etc. It's impossible to write off an entire on-call period and stay rooted to the depot, not doing any other work just in case.

However, and this I think is the key point, there is a balance to be struck. I'd argue that carrying out additional safety critical tasks, over and above the day job, whilst on-call, does seem like an issue, both in terms of on-call resilience and the fatigue levels of the colleague involved.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For now you could just make a big public fuss about LNER not respecting the spirit of the new industrial relations landscape and stating you're willing to give them a further chance to come back to the table while the pay award is voted on.

There are many ways of looking at it, though. Who is the target recipient of the message?

Neither the union not the operator care what the public think, they’re not relevant to this dispute.

Doing this sends a very clear message to both LNER and the Government that the dispute there is not about pay, this one is about wider issues. I can’t help but suspect ASLEF think LNER think that the pay will fix the other issues and ASLEF want to send the message that it won’t.

 

[357]

Maybe I am missing the number of driver managers that there are. But then if there is only the one at York then presumably this whole strike is pointless as it is all about one driver manager working one train.

IF there are multiple driver managers then there would presumably be one within a reasonable distance and as near, or reasonably similarly near, to any incident as the office?

So the potential that an incident happens further from the train being driven by the driver manager seems than the office still makes it sound like an expensive luxury not to run the train.

Again, I am an outsider and may be missing something obvious.

Someone driving a train can't just leave it on the side of the road. They are tied to it.

The problem isn't one manager driving a train, it's that they all are.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

ASLEF had a very harmonious relationship all the way from privatisation in 1996 with GNER, National Express East Coast, East Coast, Virgin Trains East Coast, and LNER.... up until 2022. There were no strikes, or threats of strikes, or overtime bans for all that time.

Announcing weekends of strikes over failure to adhere to agreements for two years (that's TWO YEARS!) isn't 'defcon3 straight away'. There has been plenty of opportunity to resolve this for two years. It isn't an 'opening gambit'. It is the next stage to try and progress to talking.

Where on the same page here and my observation (it can only be that) is this is a reflection of a failure to deal with underlying issues thats bought things to head so thanks for filling in the background.

We can see whats going to happen here is the current leader(ship) will be removed and there will be a cross country (or TPE) solution with services removed from the timetable to alleviate the immediate tension between mgt and drivers.

 

[Topological]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==



During Covid, when the public was literally told not to travel, many Operators reduced services to around 20% of the normal provision. How many drivers lost their jobs and how many members did ASLEF lose during this time?

That was a different scenario. Were train drivers protected in that case? I apologise for not knowing the precise arrangements, but would presume there was a plan that normality would resume.

In the case where passenger demand drops because of "normal" circumstances, I expect recruitment would adjust accordingly. Then the number of ASLEF members would reduce by low replacement rates.