I cam think of two specific occasions where I have been told that my train will be terminating short, I've got all the passengers off and suddenly the driver shouts out that the line has unexpectedly reopened.
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Why does the railway give passengers obvious lies?
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renegademaster
Established Member
The railway delay prediction software would be a good thing for the RDG to run as a competition and give a big cash prize to the data science guys who create the best model which they will then use.
I don't recall seeing "Delayed" in the dim and distant past - is it a relatively new thing to try and fix the problem of the ever-increasing "due in 10 minutes" ... "11 minutes" ... "12 minutes" etc.?
The problem with "Delayed" is that it doesn't give me any useful information about where the train actually is. Could it not be accompanied with a suitable abbreviation of "Delayed ... last known to be 30 minutes away from the station/still hasn't called at X, Y or Z" (so I know it will be a long wait even when things start working again - plenty of time for me to pop to the pub across the road) or "Delayed ... last known to be 2 minutes away at the junction just outside the station" (so I know it will be one of the first trains to arrive whenever the problem is fixed - therefore I probably shouldn't leave the platform area).
The problem with "Delayed" is that it doesn't give me any useful information about where the train actually is. Could it not be accompanied with a suitable abbreviation of "Delayed ... last known to be 30 minutes away from the station/still hasn't called at X, Y or Z" (so I know it will be a long wait even when things start working again - plenty of time for me to pop to the pub across the road) or "Delayed ... last known to be 2 minutes away at the junction just outside the station" (so I know it will be one of the first trains to arrive whenever the problem is fixed - therefore I probably shouldn't leave the platform area).
renegademaster
Established Member
To save the complaints , Network Rail should replace the departure board at Euston with Traksy for the WCML and let people make their own guesses for when each train will arrive.
They aren’t designed, commissioned and permitted to continue to spread false information - again you appear to be suggesting a level of malevolence or nefarious intent that simply isn’t there. They are imperfect systems, built to a spec and budget, that are right much of the time, but which occasionally display inaccurate info for the reasons outlined above.
It’s a little difficult to understand your point. There is no perfect system available, so the choice is between systems such as have now which are occasionally inaccurate, but are generally streets ahead of what went before, or a printed timetable (or no information at all). Most would prefer the former.
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Clearly what’s happened in this instance is the “association” between the two trains was missing, so Darwin had no idea of what the inward train was.
In the TOC I work for, the teams’ role is more “Darwin integrity” controller rather than CIS these days as a lot of the CIS work is automated ( and work is continuing in the automation space ) one of their key tasks is to monitor any trains without associations and add them back in.
In the absence of any data to the contrary, be that an association, movement data or manual forecast ( be that Tyrell, CIS or direct into Darwin ) the system will always assume a train to be on time.
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Agreed - all of this is configurable, it’s up to the individual system operator. In the TOC I work for, we changed our system to do just this - only repeat a delay announcement if the delay value changes by a significant amount.
Also, once the train is more than 10 minutes late, our announcements no longer announce the size of the delay, instead they focus on the new estimated arrival time eg:
(Old) We’re sorry that the [ train ] has been delayed by approximately 27 minutes, this is due to [ reason ] - so the customer has to work out for themselves the new arrival time, if they can’t see the display
( New ) We’re sorry that the [ train ] had been delayed and is now expected to arrive at [time] this is due to [reason]
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Darwin ( which powers all CIS unless manually disconnected ) will show a train as “delayed” in the following circumstances
1) A train hasn’t reported at an expected reporting point for 5 minutes
OR
2) A train hasn’t reported for two successive reporting points
So it’s whatever of the above happens first.
The reason you’ll see a delay creep up in one minute intervals is usually because of (1) - Darwin hasn’t seen the train so will clock up the delay on a minute by minute basis until the threshold is reached. If this wasn’t in place, you’d constantly have trains flicking in and out of “delayed” which doesn’t help the customer and could cause unnecessary alarm.
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Darwin is designed to be optimistic rather than pessimistic for good reason. If you say a train is expected to be 20 minutes late but it’s only 15, you’ve a real risk of customers missing their trains as a result - eg thinking they have time to grab a coffee etc
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The biggest change for delay predictions is the beast that is TMS - Traffic Management Systems - that’s slowly being introduced on the rail network eg the east coast digital transformation.
TMS will be connected to Darwin which will have a significant impact on things such as delay predictions as well as platform allocation and the like
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secretlondon
Member
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Thank you for some great detail on the behind the scenes data cleansing!
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Most misinformation is not a deliberate lie, but 'the train approaching this platform is not scheduled to call here' is an exception. It usually means that it is scheduled to call, but the operator has decided that getting it to the end of the line is a higher priority than getting the paying clientele there.
Whether or not such a decision is justifiable, to say the train is not scheduled to stop is a deliberate falsehood.
Whether or not such a decision is justifiable, to say the train is not scheduled to stop is a deliberate falsehood.
Falcon1200
Established Member
What should they say instead? 'The train was scheduled to stop but due to its late running and the resulting impact on other services it has been amended and will now not stop'. Not sure this would really help, or placate!
In both 2004 and 2005 I travelled from Manchester for the FA Cup Final. I’m not sure now which of those finals it was, but I had an Advance ticket for an early morning Arriva Trains Wales service to Cardiff.
On arrival at Piccadilly, no such [Cardiff] service was advertised, there was however an ATW service to Crewe listed, comprising a two car DMU, at platform, which was visible from behind the gateline.
Rail staff, along with BTP support were attempting to ensure all supporters boarded an additional ’FootEx’ service, but I wasn’t having any of it, I was as confident as I possibly could be that the destination of the DMU was Cardiff (or beyond) and insisted with the BTP and rail staff that as I held an advance ticket I should be allowed to board. Eventually after much discussion, it was conceded that I was correct and (along with anyone else holding an Advance) was allowed to bosrd.
Of course the service went beyond Crewe to South Wales.
I understand the rationale for disguising the true destination of the service, but it doesn’t alter the fact that it was a lie with collusion between bodies to perpetuate that lie.
On arrival at Piccadilly, no such [Cardiff] service was advertised, there was however an ATW service to Crewe listed, comprising a two car DMU, at platform, which was visible from behind the gateline.
Rail staff, along with BTP support were attempting to ensure all supporters boarded an additional ’FootEx’ service, but I wasn’t having any of it, I was as confident as I possibly could be that the destination of the DMU was Cardiff (or beyond) and insisted with the BTP and rail staff that as I held an advance ticket I should be allowed to board. Eventually after much discussion, it was conceded that I was correct and (along with anyone else holding an Advance) was allowed to bosrd.
Of course the service went beyond Crewe to South Wales.
I understand the rationale for disguising the true destination of the service, but it doesn’t alter the fact that it was a lie with collusion between bodies to perpetuate that lie.
"the train is no longer calling here"?
norbitonflyer
Established Member
simply 'will not be calling at this station'
Perfectly clear, and perfectly true.
renegademaster
Established Member
The "train not scheduled to call at this stop" is default for all passing trains isn't it?
Lewisham2221
Established Member
Perhaps it varies by region? I'm sure it's normally more like "Your attention please on platform x. The next train at platform X does not stop here. Please stand clear of the platform edge on platform x."
benbristow
Member
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Those trains have a knack of catching up time between Donny and Clee to deny a nice delay repay!
For those TOCs who use the Worldline CIS, the text is locally configurable. For the TOC I work for, the wording is (dependent on display type)
SPECIAL MESSAGE
=================
PLEASE STAND AWAY FROM THE
EDGE OF THE PLATFORM AND
BEHIND THE YELLOW LINE, THE
NEXT TRAIN IS PASSING THROUGH.
Or:
PLEASE STAND CLEAR
THE NEXT TRAIN WILL
NOT STOP AT THIS STATION
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I think "lie" is too strong a word here - there are numerous reasons, including this one, why the "true" destination of a train is not shown - largely if not exclusively for customer experience reasons. In my area, the true destination is "hidden" when there's actually a faster train to the same location which would be overtaken by the other service.
It makes perfect sense to keep the football fans on the train that's dedicated for them, with all that goes with large groups of footie fans in the same place (not a criticism, just an observation) - this scenario offers the best of both worlds. The fans can be as noisy as they like without fear of upsetting other passengers, and everyone else can have a more peaceful journey
Tractor2018
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Yes, but that wouldn't make for such a hysterical thread title.
I thought AI would solve all these sorts of problems.
There are also increasingly sophisticated train planning/operation systems available to "control".
Things like how to route trains during disruption for optimum benefit (train/crew rescheduling etc).
One solution might have been to send the Cleethorpes non-stop via the Chat Moss line to get back to schedule.
To be fair ARS is a sort of "AI signalling" and that makes all sort of errors (perhaps to some extent "garbage in, garbage out") or sticks rigidly to timetable rules and is actually better turned off during disruption...
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It is not recent. What is more recent is the latter which states the current location of the train as above - not super helpful if the train is at a stand but that would need to be backed up by manual announcements, service stating "Delayed" and other communications from the TOC.
This thread stems from a unique situation a) the train is delayed on departure, b) is still moving, c) is routed in such a way that the delay will continue to rise. Where a late service is routed behind a stopping service causing further delay is a situation where the CIS will struggle to be accurate as it is anticipating the expected speed of the train (by using distance at each timing point divided by time) but cannot really read what it is doing between those points.
In most situations the CIS can cope, so long as inputs are fed through.
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Phil56
Member
Another "lie" on departure boards is where the incoming train is clearly going to be late, if not very late or cancelled, yet the outgoing train is still showing on the passenger information systems as being "on time" which is a physical impossibility as it can't change ends and set off again until it's arrived! As others have said, the automated system won't know the outbound train is delayed until it's actually set off, so the departure board can change from "on time" to delayed considerably or cancelled without any notice.
This is very common as say, an intermediary station on a branch line, where there is no other train on the line, so the train going in the other direction can't possibly be on time if the incoming train hasn't even passed by the time the outgoing one is due to leave, there being maybe an hour or more for it to get to the end of the line, change ends and return.
This is very common as say, an intermediary station on a branch line, where there is no other train on the line, so the train going in the other direction can't possibly be on time if the incoming train hasn't even passed by the time the outgoing one is due to leave, there being maybe an hour or more for it to get to the end of the line, change ends and return.
This would suggest the train has not been associated correctly. Where train A forms train B, the diagrams should be built in so that the headcodes automatically populated. Darwin also takes into account the turnaround time and lateness of the inward stock to suggest a departure time. It's not 100% correct, but often it is not too far off in my experience.
Again some systems (such as certain branch lines) are much more manual in this regard.
Maybe to those 'in the know' who can access RTT etc., it might seem hysterical. For the ordinary customer buying a ticket, getting seriously delayed and then getting fed incorrect information with no industry insight on how to find 'the truth', I can see why they'd feel lied to.
The number of reasons why customers are still knowingly fed misinformation isn't going to help the ordinary punter feel that 'the truth' is an industry goal either.
Much like bus information screens which are effectively a work of fiction and even airlines/airports struggle to accurately anticipate delays in my experience; the inward plane being hours late whilst the outbound departure continues to show on time until 45 minutes before departure time where suddenly a 2 hour delay is added...
This problem is not unique to rail in providing accurate real-time data for public transport.
Nobody is knowingly trying to misinform customers and I think the assertion that they are is quite offensive for all of those teams in TOC Controls and elsewhere who work extremely hard to provide customers with the highest quality information that they possibly can.
My point is that there are well known downsides to railway information systems that cause them to misinform, and is not remotely suggesting that the poor s*ds on the front line (many of whom may also be recipients of the poor info?) are doing anything but their utmost.
jammmmmsssssss
Member
It doesn't usually mean that. Just go to the southern ECML stations with a fast line platform
Lewisham2221
Established Member
It's also probably worth pointing out that in many cases, even where a delay or cancellation a later working seems highly likely, there's a good chance that control are working behind the scenes to try and reduce disruption as much as possible and source the relevant crew and/or vehicle/unit/aircraft.
There's no perfect solution, it's arguably better for something to not be shown as delayed/cancelled until it is definitely delayed/cancelled. I'm sure many of the same people would complain if the information shown was continuously changing and displaying conflicting information - "this service is delayed by xx minutes, this is service now delayed by yy minutes, this service has been cancelled, this service has been reinstated, this service is delayed by zz minutes, this service has been cancelled, this service has been reinstated..." In fact, I'd go as far as expecting some to be furious had they heeded the initial information that the service was cancelled, gone off to do something else, to find that the service had been reinstated and operated on time.
I'm puzzled... Without access to other information sources to tell them the "truth" as you call it, how would a customer come to the conclusion that they were being lied to?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
What is "the truth" though?
There's a recent thread where someone missed their train because the departure screens showed a 15 minute delay. The train was 15 minutes late at Grantham but made the time up and actually left on time. They missed the train.
In that scenario someone - whether a station CIS operator, or the TOC control - has made an active edit to try and reflect the expected late running of the service & override the automatic lateness which feeds through Darwin onto station screens and apps.
For a variety of reasons this can be accurately described as a “best estimate”. It is much more commonly used for terminating/originating services.
Howardh
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That happens a lot at Bolton Interchange, gives a time, then how late it's running, but once past it's scheduled time it disappears. Thankfully apps are around to show you where the bus really is.
Of course that applies to trains too, albeit the information at stations is more accurate and, frankly, believable, and the info stays on the screen however late it's running.
But it's hard for a display to be "honest" when there are multiple delays, and indeed if they say your train is 30' late, it's possible that it can be brought forward considerably.
But in case of delays won't most pax be aware of apps like realtime, signalbox and even simply following progress via Trainline or similar?
As an aside, rail info is much better than airports where all you get is "delayed - relax" which is a total oxymoron!
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