Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[LW84]

Mod note: split from existing thread

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

LNER is to pilot the replacement of Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on certain flows (Kings Cross to Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh) with a new '70-minute Flex' ticket. During the trial there will be only three fare types available: Anytime, 70-min Flex, and Advance. From...

www.railforums.co.uk

---

Expansion of 70-min Flex for journeys made from 30-9-24...

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Fantastic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. Surprised it took them so long to do that as the well known workarounds will be playing havoc with the actual trial data. Indeed, surprised they didn't do that to start with, and include any station that takes fares from those too, to avoid those being used as workarounds (as there will still be other ones to use).

Also surprised Stevenage and Peterborough isn't included as destinations. Much as I'm opposed to the idea of it, if you want viable trial data on how many it puts off you really need it to be the only option without too many obvious workarounds.

From the other thread:

Looking at 2 October, a number of connections from London to Haymarket on the LNER booking engine where the only ticket is the Anytime single, because the Scotrail reservation isn't available for the last mile.

Watch as Messrs Trainline & Co laugh all the way to the bank as their splitting engine offers massive "discounts" vs booking with the TOC direct!

(Yes, I know, so do other splitting engines, and probably better too, but Trainline is so widely used by the public. You can also now avoid the fees by using a white label site/app because these now include the splitting functionality - or at least the WMT and Northern apps do).

 

[JonathanH]

Also surprised Stevenage and Peterborough isn't included as destinations. Much as I'm opposed to the idea of it, if you want viable trial data on how many it puts off you really need it to be the only option without too many obvious workarounds.

Doesn't it just extend the length of the workarounds to places like Uphall, Epsom, Shenfield etc? The fact that connections may not be available on reservable services operated by other operators won't help either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't it just extend the length of the workarounds to places like Uphall, Epsom, Shenfield etc?

It means there's no longer an obvious one to use, which should at least spread it out a bit.

The fact that connections may not be available on reservable services operated by other operators won't help either.

This is true. I suspect it might make the semifast Edinburgh more popular as splits come up significantly cheaper.

 

[cactustwirly]

This change is good if you want to collect Avios

 

[Haywain]

The fact that connections may not be available on reservable services operated by other operators won't help either.

If the workround is a flexible fare - a Super Off Peak Single - then that won't be relevant.

 

[redreni]

Thanks. Surprised it took them so long to do that as the well known workarounds will be playing havoc with the actual trial data. Indeed, surprised they didn't do that to start with, and include any station that takes fares from those too, to avoid those being used as workarounds (as there will still be other ones to use).

Also surprised Stevenage and Peterborough isn't included as destinations. Much as I'm opposed to the idea of it, if you want viable trial data on how many it puts off you really need it to be the only option without too many obvious workarounds.

What is obvious to us might not necessarily be obvious to a big proportion of passengers.

Presumably they know by how much sales of tickets to and from the workaround stations has increased, so they know how many people are using the workaround. I agree there's only one way to find out whether those people will pay more than the price of the withdrawn flexible fares if you take away the workarounds and that is by taking away the workarounds.

I hope people who had been using the workarounds will be disciplined and will collectively send a clear signal to LNER and DfT that they will not pay more. That means finding alternative workarounds where possible or else not using LNER at all.

The truth of the matter may well be that neither LNER nor DfT nor His Majesty's Treasury will care, as their real goal is not to get all of the existing passengers to pay more, it is to get some to pay more and price the rest off. They haven't told the truth about that in their propaganda, however, so it will be much more difficult for them to claim that this move is popular with passengers and that the trial has been successful if passenger numbers fall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The truth of the matter may well be that neither LNER nor DfT nor His Majesty's Treasury will care, as their real goal is not to get all of the existing passengers to pay more, it is to get some to pay more and price the rest off. They haven't told the truth about that in their propaganda, however, so it will be much more difficult for them to claim that this move is popular with passengers and that the trial has been successful if passenger numbers fall.

In the end the criteria are almost certainly "does it make LNER more money than what went before", and I'd be very surprised were the answer not "yes".

I have far greater concerns about it making it to Avanti which has Off Peaks about 20-30% cheaper than LNER's for historical reasons - it is likely a VERY substantial fare increase would be sneaked in if/when it does.

 

[LUYMun]

Oh dear.

 

[redreni]

In the end the criteria are almost certainly "does it make LNER more money than what went before", and I'd be very surprised were the answer not "yes".

I have far greater concerns about it making it to Avanti which has Off Peaks about 20-30% cheaper than LNER's for historical reasons - it is likely a VERY substantial fare increase would be sneaked in if/when it does.

That may very well be the real criterion, and as such the trial might for all we know be going brilliantly. That doesn't alter the fact it's more difficult for them to declare it a success if it doesn't meet the aims as per their publicity (which did not include screwing more revenue from fewer people).

Don't forget this is supposed to spread passenger loads more evenly across trains by enabling passengers to realise their latent desire to organise their lives for the convenience of the railway.

 

[Haywain]

Interesting to note that as well as the clusters around Newcastle and Edinburgh, they have also filled in the gap between Newcastle and Berwick by adding the Alnmouth/Morpeth cluster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That may very well be the real criteria, and as such the trial might for all we know be going brilliantly. That doesn't alter the fact it's more difficult for them to declare it a success if it doesn't meet the aims as per their publicity (which did not include screwing more revenue from fewer people).

I do suspect to an extent that the parameters have shifted a bit. After all, LNER did expect there to be another 650ish seats from London to Edinburgh and vice versa per hour, which could have actually resulted in some fare drops. The actual situation, however, is that they're stuck with the two trains per hour for the foreseeable, which are largely all pretty much full, so they can only increase revenue by screwing more out of existing passengers.

 

[Hadders]

This is very bad news for passengers.

More expensive
Less flexible
No transparency of pricing
Removal of the cap on what can be charged

It seems to me that this is the model that DfT/RDG/GBR will use for long distance fares across the network.

If you want trains to operate like an airline then you’ll be pleased with this. But if you value the walk on railway with flexible tickets then it’s gone.

 

[JonathanH]

Removal of the cap on what can be charged

Technically an increase in the cap, as they haven't yet found a reason to remove the Anytime Single, although I do wonder why not.

 

[signed]

It seems to me that this is the model that DfT/RDG/GBR will use for long distance fares across the network.

That's the direction in most countries, sadly

as they haven't yet found a reason to remove the Anytime Single

Business people that need the flexibility and can pay

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you want trains to operate like an airline then you’ll be pleased with this. But if you value the walk on railway with flexible tickets then it’s gone.

It's certainly looking likely that a decent newish EV will be on my shopping list, and my long distance rail travel will decline substantially.

That's the direction in most countries, sadly

The model may be, but most European railways (aside from both colours of Eurostar) seem to at least keep the fares reasonable and manage quotas competently, and offer things like refunds and free changes on the "middle tier".

Business people that need the flexibility and can pay

That's not how business in the UK is now (though it may still be in France) - my employer, and most others I know of, mandates a far more frugal approach to ticket purchase than I do in my personal travel.

First Class and walk-up fares (aside from long distance Anytimes which hardly anyone buys for anything, they mostly just exist as a fare ceiling) are now primarily leisure purchases.

 

[signed]

(aside from both colours of Eurostar)

The fare merger will make Eurostar quite a bit more flexible, even in Standard. As you will be able to refund for £/€25 (for a single) or £/€50 (for a return) and change date/time no-fee.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fare merger will make Eurostar quite a bit more flexible, even in Standard

Eurostar's new fare categories are quite sensible for a compulsory-reservation railway, and LNER would do well to look at them rather than simply using the passenger-unfriendly Advance T&C which were designed for when Advances were just the bargain bucket. It's odd that this trial is only looking at one additional, not particularly good "middle tier" and isn't considering other options that other railways have - even Lumo's "middle tier" seems better than the 70 Minute Flex to me.

However, Eurostar fares (both colours) cap out way too high for what is offered. In particular Eurostar "Red" which doesn't have the excuse of the tunnel fees.

I'm not a fan of this trial, but it certainly could be made less unpalatable - however LNER seem content just to tighten screws from both ends at once - both conditions and heavily increased fares.

 

[takno]

In the end the criteria are almost certainly "does it make LNER more money than what went before", and I'd be very surprised were the answer not "yes"

I'm interested to see the actual long term effect. It's the sort of change where you can burn through new customers for about a year, and where even regular travellers won't necessarily get burned for a few months, but the first time they miss the train and have to pay Megabucks for a new ticket is likely to be the last day they bother looking at the rail option before planes.

 

[signed]

In particular Eurostar "Red" which doesn't have the excuse of the tunnel fees.

Absolutely

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm interested to see the actual long term effect. It's the sort of change where you can burn through new customers for about a year, and where even regular travellers won't necessarily get burned for a few months, but the first time they miss the train and have to pay Megabucks for a new ticket is likely to be the last day they bother looking at the rail option before planes.

Even Ryanair and easyJet offer a "missed flight fee" where you can move to the next flight for a fixed fee that is usually less than a new ticket. It's bizarre LNER haven't offered anything similar as part of the trial.

It could be made vastly less unpalatable by a fare structure similar to that of Eurostar's recent change.

 

[signed]

Doesn't it just extend the length of the workarounds to places like Uphall, Epsom, Shenfield etc? The fact that connections may not be available on reservable services operated by other operators won't help either.

It's a game of whack-a-mole

Even Ryanair and easyJet offer a "missed flight fee" where you can move to the next flight for a fixed fee that is usually less than a new ticket

Would that even possible under RDG/NR rules? Advance tickets are quite stringents in T&C

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would that even possible under RDG/NR rules? Advance tickets are quite stringents in T&C

The trial involves a wholly new ticket type, the 70 minute Flex, so they could certainly make such things part of that. The 70 minute Flex is not an Advance ticket, even though it is in many ways similar to one.

 

[takno]

Business people that need the flexibility and can pay

My mate does the route a couple of times a month for business, and certainly the company will pay, but they now make it clear that they'd rather book you on a flight. After he ended up having to get an anytime ticket recently he's become too embarrassed to carry on putting in the high expenses claims. This is a company which is in general quite concerned about environmental footprint.

Businesses that just book people in for anytime travel and don't look at the cost are getting pretty thin on the ground these days.

 

[Iskra]

I'm interested to see the actual long term effect. It's the sort of change where you can burn through new customers for about a year, and where even regular travellers won't necessarily get burned for a few months, but the first time they miss the train and have to pay Megabucks for a new ticket is likely to be the last day they bother looking at the rail option before planes.

Exactly. This sort of move isn't about the long-term perspective. It's about cooking the books to gain an immediate revenue snatch so that the current leadership can look good fleetingly enough to convince their superiors to promote them, and then move on up before the long-term damage hits. By which point, the current leadership will be long clear of the fallout, whereas the passengers will be left to deal with the implications for years to come.

LNER leadership are not fit for purpose, they are adding no genuine value to the TOC. There's no better advert for UK domestic aviation and Open Access.

This extension is awful news for the passenger, and the fact they are having to block loopholes is telling about their attitude towards passengers. The very fact that customers are using ticketing workarounds tells you they aren't happy with the core product as it now is, but rather than admit that, they draconianly extend it to make workarounds harder (but they are of course still there in many cases). I suppose they can just blame the strikes when passenger number fall.

 

[Tom]

Even Ryanair and easyJet offer a "missed flight fee" where you can move to the next flight for a fixed fee that is usually less than a new ticket. It's bizarre LNER haven't offered anything similar as part of the trial.

BA does even better on domestic and short haul routes on their Plus fares which aren't normally much more than the basic fares. They allow completely free changes on the day, space available in the cabin you are ticketed in, as long as it's done 1 hour before the flights - the earliest of the old and new flights. Doesn't matter whether the flight is selling for £600 and you bought a £60 ticket, if the space is available you can have it. Completely self service online.

I make huge use of this benefit.

 

[Failed Unit]

Surely the fact they they have done this proves the trial is a failure as people don't want it and are working around it?

What next, people start using Potters (at the London end) to avoid this? Or going further North / West (Dalmeny, Livingston, Slateford, Newcraighall and Sunderderland)

When you start going the first non-zonal station the net is massive. (It isn't clear if Finsbury park will be sucked in you just the travelcard ticket but guessing both)

I guess if they see a massive reduction in fares on these flows, replaced by a significant increase in people splitting they won't care (As long as the splits give them more revenue then previously)

 

[miklcct]

I have just checked the offering on the LNER website. There are no longer off-peak tickets between London and Haymarket, but off-peak tickets between West Hampstead Thameslink and Edinburgh remain available in October.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have just checked the offering on the LNER website. There are no longer off-peak tickets between London and Haymarket, but off-peak tickets between...

Please don't help them out by giving them any more ideas!