End in sight for the ASLEF dispute: Offer now made

[uglymonkey]

How does it compare with similar type jobs with like responsibility, like bus drivers, petrol fuel tanker and lorry drivers even Airline pilots, who I believe pay for their own training.

 

[AverageJoe]

How does it compare with similar type jobs with like responsibility, like bus drivers, petrol fuel tanker and lorry drivers even Airline pilots, who I believe pay for their own training.

Ah yes that same old reasoning.

I was a bus driver… well easier.

But what you are saying as train drivers should be paid as low as them?

How about they are paid more? That sounds better doesn’t it.

However I’m not gonna fight for them, they can do it for themselves.

Most Pilots earn considerably more and once they are at cruising altitude their workload massively reduces.

There is also academies that train pilots for free.

Not to mention a lot of the ‘professional’ drivers out there are often horrible at their jobs and break the laws of the road often.. see how long you last as a train driver if you do that.

 

[DJP78]

How does it compare with similar type jobs with like responsibility, like bus drivers, petrol fuel tanker and lorry drivers even Airline pilots, who I believe pay for their own training.

Bus driver training is 6 weeks

Train driver training is 10-12 months for the core elements plus a further 6-12 months to learn routes, diversionary routes. That’s one significant difference between bus driving and train driving

 

[Stigy]

How does it compare with similar type jobs with like responsibility, like bus drivers, petrol fuel tanker and lorry drivers even Airline pilots, who I believe pay for their own training.

Fuel tanker drivers can get similar salaries to train drivers. Airline pilots earn at least what train drivers earn, but more often than not significantly more. Bus drivers get half what we earn, but that doesn’t mean they’re not worth more than that. Sadly it’s the market value. I mean, I could learn to drive a bus with a car licence, as an eighteen year old with minimal driving experience. It’s the same to an extent with HGV driving. Driving road vehicles is far less complex than train driving, and those who get het up about “train drivers don’t even steer” sums them up really (if one’s detail “go to” is steering, and that’s all they’ve got, it speaks volumes about how much said person understands about what’s involved in driving a train).

 

[Topological]

Whilst I should argue in favour of the degree, it is pretty clear that the university degree is more a means to signal skills that employers find valuable. The big advantage is that the student pays and the employer can quickly evaluate whether that student has the ability to learn whatever specific knowledge is needed for the employer. This is why you see history graduates in big finance companies, it is the self-motivation and ability to learn that matters.

It is therefore irrelevant that train driving does not require a degree. From what I can see, the skills to drive a train are very different from those we teach in universities. Train driving requires a level of memorising that university education never should. Where graduates should be critically evaluating everything, the driver must make the single right decision continuously.

Pay is related to the value of the role. Again that may offend, but if a job requires a high degree of skill AND the value of the role to the employer is high then a high wage will be commanded. For all we may bemoan footballers salaries, the value of the role in the multi billion pound Premier League is clearly high enough to command a small percentage of that money for the work. In train driving the weight on skill is higher, but understandably the value of a train running is much lower than Manchester United turning up at Brighton on Saturday (I think that is the next Premier League game).

I certainly do not begrudge the train driver salaries.

I do think there should be changes in some conditions, but I think dynamic conditions are important in all roles. That is ideological, I do not have a particular knowledge of which conditions would bring which benefits.

 

[yorkie]

How does it compare with similar type jobs with like responsibility, like bus drivers, petrol fuel tanker and lorry drivers even Airline pilots, who I believe pay for their own training.

Ah yes that same old reasoning.

I was a bus driver… well easier.

But what you are saying as train drivers should be paid as low as them?

I don't think anyone can possibly be saying that train drivers should be paid the same as bus drivers and airline pilots

Edit: just to add, clearly none of the examples are directly comparable; indeed you would struggle to find any other job that directly compares. One of the main aspects driving salary is demand vs supply, and the cost / time taken to train staff up to that position will have a huge affect.

 

[DJP78]

As for pilots paying for their own training, I’m not certain why that’s something you would look to compare with the rail industry.

It will be for pilots / trainee pilots and their unions to compel the aviation industry to change its practices and pay for trainees, as is the case in the rail industry.

For the record, there are several airlines that have recently begun fully funded in-house pilot training such as the BA Speedbird Academy offering 100 pilots a year fully funded flight training.

 

[Omnishambles]

That system is the closest to it, yes.

I'm not trained on it so can't comment further.

ETCS with ATO (Grade of Automation 4)
Not just years but generations away if ever looked into apart from select areas
The core itself is at only at ETCS, ATO GoA 2 although the ETCS itself isn’t full signals away and is an overlay.
Moorgate branch and the ECML Welwyn piece that is being tested in the upcoming bank holiday are ETCS with no ATO, the Cambrian line commissioned in 2011/12 is again ETCS with no ATO although is full signals away

 

[DJP78]

Whilst I should argue in favour of the degree, it is pretty clear that the university degree is more a means to signal skills that employers find valuable. The big advantage is that the student pays and the employer can quickly evaluate whether that student has the ability to learn whatever specific knowledge is needed for the employer. This is why you see history graduates in big finance companies, it is the self-motivation and ability to learn that matters.

It is therefore irrelevant that train driving does not require a degree. From what I can see, the skills to drive a train are very different from those we teach in universities. Train driving requires a level of memorising that university education never should. Where graduates should be critically evaluating everything, the driver must make the single right decision continuously.

Pay is related to the value of the role. Again that may offend, but if a job requires a high degree of skill AND the value of the role to the employer is high then a high wage will be commanded. For all we may bemoan footballers salaries, the value of the role in the multi billion pound Premier League is clearly high enough to command a small percentage of that money for the work. In train driving the weight on skill is higher, but understandably the value of a train running is much lower than Manchester United turning up at Brighton on Saturday (I think that is the next Premier League game).

I certainly do not begrudge the train driver salaries.

I do think there should be changes in some conditions, but I think dynamic conditions are important in all roles. That is ideological, I do not have a particular knowledge of which conditions would bring which benefits.

Enjoyed reading this post

One further point, all trainee train drivers undertake a series of national standard psychometric tests to evaluate their suitability for the role of driving trains. There is a high failure rate. The recruitment process is intense and incredibly competitive. By the time an applicant has navigated this process, there is already tangible value in this recruit as their mental suitability to the role and cognitive ability will be seen as commodity by a Train Operating Company.

In the same way that employers see value in a degree, it being evidence of work ethic and intellect, the rail industry sees value in the applicants that pass the selection process and particularly psychometric tests.

A degree has nothing to do with driving trains. It’s no marker of how calm the applicant will be in an emergency, their temperament in following rules and regulations, attention to detail, focus, concentration, coordination, awareness & concise communication, not to mention the dozens of other non-technical skills.

This is also true of the aviation industry. Pilots aren’t required to have a degree either, as pilot applicants sit their own psychometric tests and undergo a similarly rigorous recruitment process.

Despite all these tests and recruitment hoops to jump through, a number of trainees will fail their training programme and a small number withdraw from driving trains when they realise what’s involved, how much can potentially go wrong and that they are suddenly entirely responsible for the hundreds behind them.

Driving trains is a hugely skilled job and is extremely demanding. It’s a mountain to climb to get your key.

I’m quite comfortable with our remuneration package and think it to be entirely commensurate with what we do.

 

[irish_rail]

Enjoyed reading this post

One further point, all trainee train drivers undertake a series of national standard psychometric tests to evaluate their suitability for the role of driving trains. There is a high failure rate. The recruitment process is intense and incredibly competitive. By the time an applicant has navigated this process, there is already tangible value in this recruit as their mental suitability to the role and cognitive ability will be seen as commodity by a Train Operating Company.

In the same way that employers see value in a degree, it being evidence of work ethic and intellect, the rail industry sees value in the applicants that pass the selection process and particularly psychometric tests.

A degree has nothing to do with driving trains. It’s no marker of how calm the applicant will be in an emergency, their temperament in following rules and regulations, attention to detail, focus, concentration, coordination, awareness & concise communication, not to mention the dozens of other non-technical skills.

This is also true of the aviation industry. Pilots aren’t required to have a degree either, as pilot applicants sit their own psychometric tests and undergo a similarly rigorous recruitment process.

Despite all these tests and recruitment hoops to jump through, a number of trainees will fail their training programme and a small number withdraw from driving trains when they realise what’s involved, how much can potentially go wrong and that they are suddenly entirely responsible for the hundreds behind them.

Driving trains is a hugely skilled job and is extremely demanding. It’s a mountain to climb to get your key.

I’m quite comfortable with our remuneration package and think it to be entirely commensurate with what we do.

Exactly this. Being a decent train driver cannot be taught at University. You either have the characteristics of being calm under pressure, good at concentrating for long periods, working on your own etc etc or your not. A university degree would be a complete waste of money where it to be introduced. The current tests weed out those that wouldn't be able to do the job.
Also, yes bus drivers should be paid much more, however when you consider that on most buses the vast majority of passengers are either travelling on senior citizens passes for free or are paying 2 quid for the fare, then you realise that railways generate far far greater revenues , and therefore it is easier to justify higher train driver salaries. When I drive a train from Plymouth to London, I'd guess about 6 passengers tickets on that train cover my entire day's wage.

 

[Lewisham2221]

How does it compare with similar type jobs with like responsibility, like bus drivers, petrol fuel tanker and lorry drivers even Airline pilots, who I believe pay for their own training.

Bus driving is notoriously regarded as underpaid and the industry struggles to attract and retain drivers. HGV driving tends to be regarded as slightly better, partly due to having "half" of the responsibility (concentrating on the driving aspect, rather than the both driving and customer service) for similar levels of pay, albeit pay can vary and there may be more of a requirement for night working or nights out. Airline pilot salaries vary massively depending on a number of factors (see below), ranging from significantly lower than a train driver to significantly higher than a train driver salary - so I suppose you could argue that they average out as comparable, but they just push a button and let auto pilot do everything, don't they?

Airline pilot job profile | Prospects.ac.uk

Discover what it takes to be a Airline pilot. Find out expected salary, working hours, qualifications and more.

www.prospects.ac.uk

Salary​

Salaries depend on the airline, the type of aircraft you're flying and your experience.

• Starting salaries for newly qualified second/first officers, working for a small operation, may be around £24,000. In larger companies, starting salaries can reach £28,000.
• Once you've built up your experience, salaries as a second officer tend to peak at around £58,000 while first officer salaries can reach £75,000. Once you progress on to a senior first officer role, salaries of up to £85,000 can be achieved.
• The starting salary for a captain with a medium-sized airline may range from £54,000 to £75,000. Those employed by major operators can earn £97,000 to more than £140,000.

 

[Topological]

Enjoyed reading this post

One further point, all trainee train drivers undertake a series of national standard psychometric tests to evaluate their suitability for the role of driving trains. There is a high failure rate. The recruitment process is intense and incredibly competitive. By the time an applicant has navigated this process, there is already tangible value in this recruit as their mental suitability to the role and cognitive ability will be seen as commodity by a Train Operating Company.

In the same way that employers see value in a degree, it being evidence of work ethic and intellect, the rail industry sees value in the applicants that pass the selection process and particularly psychometric tests.

A degree has nothing to do with driving trains. It’s no marker of how calm the applicant will be in an emergency, their temperament in following rules and regulations, attention to detail, focus, concentration, coordination, awareness & concise communication, not to mention the dozens of other non-technical skills.

This is also true of the aviation industry. Pilots aren’t required to have a degree either, as pilot applicants sit their own psychometric tests and undergo a similarly rigorous recruitment process.

Despite all these tests and recruitment hoops to jump through, a number of trainees will fail their training programme and a small number withdraw from driving trains when they realise what’s involved, how much can potentially go wrong and that they are suddenly entirely responsible for the hundreds behind them.

Driving trains is a hugely skilled job and is extremely demanding. It’s a mountain to climb to get your key.

I’m quite comfortable with our remuneration package and think it to be entirely commensurate with what we do.

Thank you for the extra explanation of what is involved in the driver assessment process. Very different from the assessments I set in academia.

I would like to think that we would be in a place where degrees did not define peoples ``worth'', there are posts here which suggest that the degree should create a differential.

It remains true that the average degree holder earns more over a lifetime than the average non-degree holder and that the difference more than pays the tuition fee and years of lost earnings. For the postgraduate degree the numbers are positive too. But, for those who go on to PhD the returns are a little less clear cut.

What I appreciate is that there are roles out there which still place the core skill at the heart.

Also I cannot see me driving a train, my mind wanders off to other thoughts too quickly.

 

[WAB]

Considering it’s not a graduate job, I’d say you’re very lucky to get that salary. The biggest irk most people have is the seemingly increasing strikes!

I wouldn't bother bringing graduates into this thread. Look at what a new graduate earns compared to their actual hours worked - it is pretty near the minimum wage in many cases (some even end up being below...).

This idea that drivers are blue-collar workers is completely at odds with reality - you have to go fairly high up the ladder in the management grades to make anywhere near the base rate for a driver, even if you take on shifts/on-call.

 

[mpthomson]

Fuel tanker drivers can get similar salaries to train drivers. Airline pilots earn at least what train drivers earn, but more often than not significantly more. Bus drivers get half what we earn, but that doesn’t mean they’re not worth more than that. Sadly it’s the market value. I mean, I could learn to drive a bus with a car licence, as an eighteen year old with minimal driving experience. It’s the same to an extent with HGV driving. Driving road vehicles is far less complex than train driving, and those who get het up about “train drivers don’t even steer” sums them up really (if one’s detail “go to” is steering, and that’s all they’ve got, it speaks volumes about how much said person understands about what’s involved in driving a train).

The average airline FO salary in the UK last year was just under £40k. For qualified Captains it's obviously higher but unless joining from another airline starting FO salaries at Ryanair etc are c£24k.

There are obviously some who earn much more, but the majority fly for Ryanair/ Easyjet etc where salaries are much lower. Across all FO and pilot grades the average is £58k.

 

[NEDdrv]

Considering it’s not a graduate job, I’d say you’re very lucky to get that salary. The biggest irk most people have is the seemingly increasing strikes!

You forget that before this issue it was 30 years since drivers had been on strike

 

[43066]

The average airline FO salary in the UK last year was just under £40k. For qualified Captains it's obviously higher but unless joining from another airline starting FO salaries at Ryanair etc are c£24k.

There are obviously some who earn much more, but the majority fly for Ryanair/ Easyjet etc where salaries are much lower. Across all FO and pilot grades the average is £58k.

FOs also earn flight pay which will be a five figure amount and is guaranteed. There will be very few jet FOs taking home less than £50-£60k, with many in the £70-90k bracket. £100k+ is doable with overtime. Broadly in line with train drivers, but with the possibility of promotion to captain and six figures.

EasyJet and Ryanair certainly don’t offer “much lower” salaries - certainly at FO level - they pay their pilots well and offer rapid promotion, in return for stringent rostering.

The job isn’t comparable, but the training length/cost etc. is comparable to train driving in many cases - a year to 18 months. Hence it should come as no surprise that train drivers are closer to airline pilots in pay than they are to bus drivers.

The comparison comes up over and over again, and has been done to death!

 

[theageofthetra]

If you receive it, you should know!

We've had confirmation that London Allowance is rising in line with any agreed pay deal (still pathetically low though)

 

[ainsworth74]

You forget that before this issue it was 30 years since drivers had been on strike

That's definitely not true, for instance:

Southern strike dates​

28 Nov 2016

ASLEF’s executive committee has called strikes on Southern Railways after members voted overwhelmingly for industrial action in a trade dispute over the company’s decision to force through driver only operation on the franchise. Drivers will strike on:

Tuesday 13 and Wednesday 14 December
Friday 16 December
Monday 9 to Saturday 14 January

In addition, drivers will not work any non-contractual overtime from Tuesday 6 December. ‘We have done our level best to try and reach a sensible, workable compromise with Southern in the interests of passengers as well as staff,’ said general secretary Mick Whelan. ‘We have always been happy to talk to the company, and we have always believed it is, or should be, possible to do a deal – as we did with ScotRail in Scotland – but it takes two to tango and the company has not been prepared to negotiate. The company – and I see the DfT’s fingerprints all over this dispute, it’s as if the DfT is the ventriloquist and Southern the ventroliquist’s dummy – doesn’t want to talk, it wants to bully; it doesn’t want to discuss, it wants to impose. Because it doesn’t care about passenger safety, only about profits for shareholders.’

ASLEF - Southern strike dates

The UK train drivers' union

web.archive.org

It's certainly the first time in 30 odd years that we've had national scale strikes by ASLEF, but it isn't the first time drivers have been on strike full stop.

 

[DesiroOperator]

The average airline FO salary in the UK last year was just under £40k. For qualified Captains it's obviously higher but unless joining from another airline starting FO salaries at Ryanair etc are c£24k.

There are obviously some who earn much more, but the majority fly for Ryanair/ Easyjet etc where salaries are much lower. Across all FO and pilot grades the average is £58k.

Figures about 3 years ago were SFO £74k and Captains £115k at easyJet. I believe they’ve just concluded pay talks that will add 16% to these figures. BA’s FO PP1 was about £58k about a decade ago unless they were SSP where it was £35K. Variable pay varies () across airlines.

Then you could go to the Middle East where an FO can take home £92k tax free before other allowances and overtime.

Most train drivers will need to do overtime to match these figures.

I’d argue (with experience) the work life balance of a train driver is far barter than a pilot though so it’s not always helpful to compare salaries alone.

I don’t think it unusual for people to compare the pay for these roles but they are different and supply and demand is different amongst them too.

 

[DJP78]

The average airline FO salary in the UK last year was just under £40k. For qualified Captains it's obviously higher but unless joining from another airline starting FO salaries at Ryanair etc are c£24k.

There are obviously some who earn much more, but the majority fly for Ryanair/ Easyjet etc where salaries are much lower. Across all FO and pilot grades the average is £58k.

Probably straying off topic, last post on this subject

Difficult to compare pilots with train drivers.

Pilots work in teams, typically three on the flight deck. Captains, senior first officer and usually a newbie or Jnr pilot. That’s my understanding

Airlines will pay Jnr pilots a lot less based on their limited experience and lesser responsibilities. Captains command the highest salaries

Senior first officers command around £85k upwards, more for the larger airlines

Train drivers work alone as soon as qualified. There’s no one else to call on. That includes responsibility for any emergencies, routes, fault finding, rules knowledge and all communications.

That’s one of the distinct differences between aviation and railway sector.

Also important to recognise that it takes between 3-4 years for a new train driver recruit to achieve the top pay scale.

 

[TUC]

How do train driver salaries in the UK compare to the rest of Europe?

 

[dctraindriver]

How do train driver salaries in the UK compare to the rest of Europe?

I’m sure someone of your knowledge already knows the answer. Higher than other European countries for sure.

 

[Butts]

Are any Drivers willing to thank the Conservative Government which privatised the Industry leading to the substantial Salary Increases for the role compared to before?

Would it be true to say that a lot of extant drivers at the time this occurred wouldn't even get an interview today?

 

[Krokodil]

European salaries are generally lower, but you'll still find that train driving in Western Europe pays better than bus driving. Despite the fact that train drivers in Europe don't steer either (which according to those of a Daily Mail persuasion makes it the easiest job in the world).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

Are any Drivers willing to thank the Conservative Government which privatised the Industry leading to the substantial Salary Increases for the role compared to before?

Would the Conservatives like to admit that their creation of a free market lead to wage inflation? Or are they just going to blame "greedy unions"?

 

[Butts]

European salaries are generally lower, but you'll still find that train driving in Western Europe pays better than bus driving. Despite the fact that train drivers in Europe don't steer either (which according to those of a Daily Mail persuasion makes it the easiest job in the world).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==


Would the Conservatives like to admit that their creation of a free market lead to wage inflation? Or are they just going to blame "greedy unions"?

That doesn't answer the question -without privatisation the wages would not have escalated to such an extent - or do you disagree ?

 

[NEDdrv]

That's definitely not true, for instance:

ASLEF - Southern strike dates

The UK train drivers' union

web.archive.org

It's certainly the first time in 30 odd years that we've had national scale strikes by ASLEF, but it isn't the first time drivers have been on strike full stop.

Ok, was just a general response to increasing strikes quoted, it is over 30 years since I had last been on strike.

 

[PLY2AYS]

That doesn't answer the question -without privatisation the wages would not have escalated to such an extent - or do you disagree ?

Prove that it was privatisation that led to the wage increase?

 

[AverageJoe]

That doesn't answer the question -without privatisation the wages would not have escalated to such an extent - or do you disagree ?

What would you like to hear butts?

Us train drivers are dumb and over paid?

If train drivers were paid the same as bus drivers or other jobs mentioned here, do you know what I’d do? Drive a bus and have it much easier.

Maybe the spotters and enthusiasts would do it for less but I wouldn’t.

Regular rules and sims tests, ever changing time tables, ever changing shift work at all hours, the potential to be stranded if there is a line fault, fatality, signal fault, failed train.
The very real reality that you may be involved in a fatality and see something you will never forget.
The fact that any error you make will need to be reported and investigated.

Add to that the amount of route knowledge. Traction knowledge, rules that need to be learned, and constantly refreshed.

Give me a bus all day long if the wages are similar.

 

[Ashfordian6]

How do train driver salaries in the UK compare to the rest of Europe?

I don't know the answer to this so it would be interesting to know for sure but knowing the French I doubt French Eurostar drivers are being paid less than their British counterparts!

 

[Butts]

What would you like to hear butts?

Us train drivers are dumb and over paid.

If train drivers were paid the same as bus drivers or other jobs mentioned here, do you know what I’d do? Drive a bus and have it much easier.

Maybe the spotters and enthusiasts would do it for less but I wouldn’t.

Regular rules and sims tests, ever changing time tables, ever changing shift work at all hours, the potential to be stranded if there is a line fault, fatality, signal fault, failed train.
The very real reality that you may be involved in a fatality and see something you will never forget.
The fact that any error you make will need to be reported and investigated.

Give me a bus all day long if the wages are similar.

Perhaps an acknowledgement that although you may not agree with Privatisation it is largely responsible for the salary position you find yourself in now.

Good luck to you with whatever you can get I've got no axe to grind on that front.

it just seems that is the aspect of privatisation that is the Elephant in the Room that no one wants to talk about as it doesn't adhere to the "Everything was bad" mantra.