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Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

Trainbike46

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So more opportunities for fares anomalies then. I thought the idea was to make things more simple, not introduce more complication.


The rail industry doesn't have a good track record when it comes to this sort of change and in my opinion cannot be trusted. Some examples:

  • 2008 Fares simplification which was anything but
  • Introduction of evening peak restrictions in many areas of the country which has introduced confusion for staff and customers
  • LNER single fares trial, changing tickets like London to Edinburgh from 'Any Permitted' to 'via York' removing at a stroke the ability to travel via alternative routes like the WCML or MML
It is kind of weird that they made them routed "via york" - why wouldn't singles be usable on the WCML?
But, if I'm doing say Edinburgh-London, couldn't I still go via the MML? Because that would still be going via york, though I don't see why you would want to except during disruption.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It is kind of weird that they made them routed "via york" - why wouldn't singles be usable on the WCML?

I believe it was at Avanti's behest because it was undercutting their own fares from Glasgow (which aren't single-fare priced).

Overall given that most people do just use the ECML it's probably a better option than break of journey restrictions (which wouldn't be enforceable anyway due to the need to cross Glasgow if going from Edinburgh to London that way).
 

yorksrob

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A trial like this isn't extendable everywhere for this very reason, route options need to be considered. That's why I'm not worried about a sudden big bang as others seem to be. The trial journeys are simple, 99.9% of people were using the ECML.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


They can connect in and out of NCL and EDB with other operators with Advance and 70min tickets.

Isn't having wildly differing fare types and T's&C's for different routes of the same type, one of the main causes of confusion for passengers ?

If the powers that be are serious about "simplification", they will surely bin off this pointless trial and establish a sensible fare structure across the whole InterCity sector.
 

bakerstreet

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If the powers that be are serious about "simplification", they will surely bin off this pointless trial and establish a sensible fare structure across the whole InterCity sector.

Or they’ll…

No I can’t bring myself to say it.
 

A S Leib

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Because that would still be going via york, though I don't see why you would want to except during disruption.
In case you'd want to break your journey in Sheffield, Derby etc., which is an advantage cars will continue to have even if ever more route restrictions are put on long-distance train tickets.
 

thedbdiboy

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Of course I do. I was responding to a specific point that was suggesting that reservations for standees should be sold. I have no issue with people without a reservation boarding a train and choosing to stand.


One benefit of privitisation, from a passenger point of view, has been fares regulation. Had it not existed for the last 25+ years just imagine how much fares would cost. You've only got to look at the prices LNER are charging now to see this.

Also look at Anytime Returns between London and Manchester. In NFM64 (September 1996) what was then the Standard Open Return was £95.00 (£242.00 today when adjusted for RPI inflation) and the First Class Open Return was £135.00 (£343.00) with only "Any Reasonable" route fares available.

It's now £369.40/£535.00 on route "Any Permitted" and £278.00/£382.50 on route "via Chesterfield", giving increases of 52.6%/56.0% and 14.9%/11.5% respectively.
But these are BOTH effects of regulation. The collar put round off-peak fares in regulation created a distorted approach to pricing peak fares. It wasn't the optimum solution to raise revenue if no regulation had existed but was the one that achieved the best outcome with a very narrow, tightly defined regulatory collar on specific fares
So more opportunities for fares anomalies then. I thought the idea was to make things more simple, not introduce more complication.


The rail industry doesn't have a good track record when it comes to this sort of change and in my opinion cannot be trusted. Some examples:

  • 2008 Fares simplification which was anything but
  • Introduction of evening peak restrictions in many areas of the country which has introduced confusion for staff and customers
  • LNER single fares trial, changing tickets like London to Edinburgh from 'Any Permitted' to 'via York' removing at a stroke the ability to travel via alternative routes like the WCML or MML
  • Removal of LNER priced return fares and the associated removal of off-peak fares and a sneaky price increase so the new single price was more than half the cost of the previous return

You cannot look at the trial journeys in isolation as they form part of the overall network. Once again the industry says it wants to remove anomalies but its action actually result in more anomalies.
Amplifying the point above, the 'rail industry' doesn't have a good track record because post-privatisation, there was a legal requirement for through, interavailable ticketing but no overall organisational structure to deliver it, and a regulatory regime that effectively provided fixed inputs at almost random points in the overall structure without any accountability for how these might be used. The subsequent issues led to increased restrictions on the regime (such as abolition of flex) without any thought for the consequences (e.g. more anomalies).
Are you really suggesting that rail pricing be undertaken somewhere other than the rail industry? Should we turn GBR into the NHS, where the equivalent of Prescription prices are set by Government?
A GBR approach will create an overall organisation to manage pricing. It will also be tasked with achieving no doubt tough financial targets so there will be unpopular decisions, but it is going to be far better to argue for the best outcomes in any new structure than to fight to return to one that (but for privatisation and regulation) would have been superseded 20 years ago. There is a strong argument for affordable flexibility, but I don't think that arguing we should retain a fare type introduced in 1973, rolled out nationally in 1985 (before the internet, digital ticketing and The Simpsons) and subsequently indexed to the September 1995 Fares Manual is a way to do it.
 

Trainbike46

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would have been superseded 20 years ago. There is a strong argument for affordable flexibility, but I don't think that arguing we should retain a fare type introduced in 1973, rolled out nationally in 1985 (before the internet, digital ticketing and The Simpsons) and subsequently indexed to the September 1995 Fares Manual is a way to do it.
A ticket type having existed for a long time isn't a reason to abolish it!
 

yorksrob

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A GBR approach will create an overall organisation to manage pricing. It will also be tasked with achieving no doubt tough financial targets so there will be unpopular decisions, but it is going to be far better to argue for the best outcomes in any new structure than to fight to return to one that (but for privatisation and regulation) would have been superseded 20 years ago. There is a strong argument for affordable flexibility, but I don't think that arguing we should retain a fare type introduced in 1973, rolled out nationally in 1985 (before the internet, digital ticketing and The Simpsons) and subsequently indexed to the September 1995 Fares Manual is a way to do it.

I'm afraid that in the absence of anything better for passengers, retaining a fare type introduced in 1973 is exactly what we should be doing. It's clear that no one in the industry seems capable of coming up with an alternative product with similar benefits.

GBR will have a chance to improve things, but any public body is only as good as the instructions given to it by Government. If GBR ends up degrading the passenger product as LNER are intent in doing, passengers should "get political" and demand a better outcome via government.
 

Krokodil

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There is a strong argument for affordable flexibility, but I don't think that arguing we should retain a fare type introduced in 1973, rolled out nationally in 1985 (before the internet, digital ticketing and The Simpsons) and subsequently indexed to the September 1995 Fares Manual is a way to do it.
Well come up with something better then.

"Ticketing is too expensive and complicated"
"Right, we shall make it more expensive and more complicated"
"That'll solve it"
 

Bletchleyite

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It's a rhetorical question as "simplification" is just a buzzword to hide fare increases.

I'd remind people that there's nothing simpler than a fixed Advance fare which can only be used on the booked train (one ticket per vehicle journey) for the booked journey and is not refundable nor changeable.

Simplicity isn't by definition good.
 

yorksrob

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I'd remind people that there's nothing simpler than a fixed Advance fare which can only be used on the booked train (one ticket per vehicle journey) for the booked journey and is not refundable nor changeable.

Simplicity isn't by definition good.

Au contraire, I would say that there is nothing simpler than a ticket one can use on any number of trains, without having to meticulously plan your arrival. But we both agree that this trial is dreadful.

Reading Mr Horne's comments to the TfN committee again, it's clear that the man is delusional.
 

Bletchleyite

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Au contraire, I would say that there is nothing simpler than a ticket one can use on any number of trains, without having to meticulously plan your arrival.

Any walk up fare aside from an All Line Rover (edit: but that has peak restrictions now) has complexity of which routes and times can be used.

Indeed this is why I think the electronic rebooking feature of the 70 minute ticket is a good idea - but there's no reason it couldn't have been done for existing tickets. It'd have had the advantage of avoiding unused reservations, too.

But we both agree that this trial is dreadful.

Certainly.

Reading Mr Horne's comments to the TfN committee again, it's clear that the man is delusional.

I have zero respect for him whatsoever - he seems a bluster-master just like Alex Hynes was at Northern - indeed I see both of them as very similar and rather dishonest characters. I see what LNER are doing and why they're really doing it, but all the bluster and outright lies about why this is being done really serve to rile. If they'd just explain it more honestly I'd still not like it but I might accept their position.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Au contraire, I would say that there is nothing simpler than a ticket one can use on any number of trains, without having to meticulously plan your arrival. But we both agree that this trial is dreadful.
True, but the only ticket that truly offers that- the BritRail pass- isn't available to people who live in Great Britain.
 

yorksrob

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Any walk up fare aside from an All Line Rover (edit: but that has peak restrictions now) has complexity of which routes and times can be used.

Indeed this is why I think the electronic rebooking feature of the 70 minute ticket is a good idea - but there's no reason it couldn't have been done for existing tickets. It'd have had the advantage of avoiding unused reservations, too.



Certainly.



I have zero respect for him whatsoever - he seems a bluster-master just like Alex Hynes was at Northern - indeed I see both of them as very similar and rather dishonest characters. I see what LNER are doing and why they're really doing it, but all the bluster and outright lies about why this is being done really serve to rile. If they'd just explain it more honestly I'd still not like it but I might accept their position.

I'm not an expert on what else he's done, but claiming removing off peak fares is "giving customers a product they want and also a simpler structure" is breathtaking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

True, but the only ticket that truly offers that- the BritRail pass- isn't available to people who live in Great Britain.

The all line rover could be a good tourist product (rather than just a track bashers dream as it is now) with a few changes, but that's probably off topic.
 

Bikeman78

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You don't have to pick a time. You also have the option to pick a 2hr+ window of opportunity. And you can still change plans after that without moving up to the Anytime.
The point is that the flex ticket is subject to availability. At the moment, the off peak price is guaranteed, and if I have to stand occasionally, so be it.
 

YorkRailFan

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I'd remind people that there's nothing simpler than a fixed Advance fare which can only be used on the booked train (one ticket per vehicle journey) for the booked journey and is not refundable nor changeable.

Simplicity isn't by definition good.
Arguably, the anytime ticket is the simplest, allowing one to travel via any route from their origin to their destination, with any TOC, during anytime of the day as long as its on the day selected when purchasing a ticket.

Advance tickets, whilst being my personal go-to for long distance travel, aren't simple for some. If your specific train is cancelled, one often can't simply get the next train to their destination as it may be operated by a different TOC, something which doesn't impact those traveling on an anytime ticket.
 

Hadders

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The point is that the flex ticket is subject to availability. At the moment, the off peak price is guaranteed, and if I have to stand occasionally, so be it.
This is one of the main issues. There is no transparency around the Advance or Flex tickets. The number available and price can be changed as the train company see fit. I don’t think that’s acceptable.
 

yorksrob

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This is one of the main issues. There is no transparency around the Advance or Flex tickets. The number available and price can be changed as the train company see fit. I don’t think that’s acceptable.

Exactly. Passengers may be able to take a punt on a cheap advance some times, however there needs to be a consistent fare that they can rely on (loony tunes anytime fares don't count).
 

FaresGuru22

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You cannot look at the trial journeys in isolation as they form part of the overall network. Once again the industry says it wants to remove anomalies but its action actually result in more anomalies.
A fares trial will always lead to anomalies. Until all operators apply the same techniques everywhere, there will always be anomalies. I'd much rather industry ripped up the rules and started again, but treasury wants to trial everything and have known winners and losers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Isn't having wildly differing fare types and T's&C's for different routes of the same type, one of the main causes of confusion for passengers ?

If the powers that be are serious about "simplification", they will surely bin off this pointless trial and establish a sensible fare structure across the whole InterCity sector.
100% agree - but in practice impossible
 

yorksrob

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100% agree - but in practice impossible

I'm not convinced it's impossible (we managed it with InterCity after all)

But even if it was, why make the status quo worse by introducing a completely different fare type that also happens to be worse for passengers ?
 

Bikeman78

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Also look at Anytime Returns between London and Manchester. In NFM64 (September 1996) what was then the Standard Open Return was £95.00
I recall that it was £150 by summer 2000. I lost count of how many people laughed and hung up on me when I quoted that price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It absolutely is. Permitted Routes are confusing to "normals".
Then make any remotely sensible route a permitted one. Aside from enthusiasts, most people way off route have probably made a mistake somewhere. A few enthusiasts taking the Mickey and stretching the definition of reasonable are not going to financially ruin the railways.
 
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yorksrob

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Then make any remotely sensible route a permitted one. Aside from enthusiasts, most people way off route have probably made a mistake somewhere. A few enthusiasts taking the Mickey and stretching the definition of reasonable are not going to financially ruin the railways.

Indeed. This could be presented as "sweeping away red tape", something Governments like to enthuse about.
 

cactustwirly

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I'd remind people that there's nothing simpler than a fixed Advance fare which can only be used on the booked train (one ticket per vehicle journey) for the booked journey and is not refundable nor changeable.

Simplicity isn't by definition good.
For a single legged journey
It becomes somewhat more complex if there are multiple trains and some are non reservable
 

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