GBR International Rail Strategy - what do you think/want?

[vuzzeho]

As I understand it, the government has no real say over what Eurostar does. I may be wrong, but I was wondering what people expected/hoped GBR would do with international rail, if anything.

 

[martin2345uk]

Surely it’s outside the scope of GBR?

 

[Transilien]

I know this is wishful thinking, but it would be great for GBR to take over the former BR stake in Eurostar as it could make Eurostar less of an afterthought in the UK rail system and more of a vital component of it. Also, perhaps GBR could take over HS1 eventually in order to fulfil the potential of that route.

 

[Nottingham59]

A properly signposted and waymarked walking route between Euston Station and St Pancras would be a good start

 

[py_megapixel]

A properly signposted and waymarked walking route between Euston Station and St Pancras would be a good start

One already exists, although there are some places the signage could probably be made clearer.

 

[signed]

As Eurostar Blue is basically an Open-Access Operator, unless shares are brought back, if GBR wants something to do with international travel, it's going to need either :

• to do it themselves (will never happen)
• have some kind of stake in a competing product to Eurostar (may happen, but who)

Eurostar (and SNCF) likely view the UK government as a massive hinderance to their operations, I don't think they're going to bow down to them.

Seeing the recent track record of SNCF (Spain and Italy), if somehow GBR gets shares in a competing product, you can be sure that SNCF will open an OA operation on UK soil as pure revenge.

 

[SynthD]

I know this is wishful thinking, but it would be great for GBR to take over the former BR stake in Eurostar

In March 2015, the Treasury announced it had sold the [40%] stake to Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) (30%) and Hermes Infrastructure (10%) for £585m. It also confirmed agreement to redeem its preference share in EIL for £172m, raising £757m in total. The sale was completed in May 2015.

It isn’t possible to take it over, and I don’t know what benefit there is to buying it back.

The government does own HS1 and St P. They recently engaged consultants to propose changes to St P to enable more rail customers. There’s not much else in their remaining powers, the rest was sold off. Eurostar can’t be subsidised because of open market rules, can HS1? Even if it became free, would that lower the price enough to induce more demand?

 

[alistairlees]

As I understand it, the government has no real say over what Eurostar does. I may be wrong, but I was wondering what people expected/hoped GBR would do with international rail, if anything.

Nothing. It is nothing to do with GBR.

 

[D6130]

As Eurostar Blue is basically an Open-Access Operator, unless shares are brought back, if GBR wants something to do with international travel, it's going to need either :

• to do it themselves (will never happen)
• have some kind of stake in a competing product to Eurostar (may happen, but who)

Eurostar (and SNCF) likely view the UK government as a massive hinderance to their operations, I don't think they're going to bow down to them.

Seeing the recent track record of SNCF (Spain and Italy), if somehow GBR gets shares in a competing product, you can be sure that SNCF will open an OA operation on UK soil as pure revenge.

Surely we don't yet know whether or not the proposed GBR legislation will permit any further open access operations, as we are no longer subject to EU rules.

 

[Nottingham59]

One already exists, although there are some places the signage could probably be made clearer.

I've never seen that. Which route does it follow?

 

[signed]

Even if it became free, would that lower the price enough to induce more demand?

That would be giving a foreign actor (beit Eurostar or whoever wants to do cross-channel) a free pass to make money off of the UK gov, will never pass both politically nor publically.

The issue we have is not demand, we have already demand to fill roughly 25 full 900 seat sets on some days and a lot more could be captured if prices are reduced

The issue is capacity both stock-wise and terminal-wise

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2024 ==

Surely we don't yet know whether or not the proposed GBR legislation will permit any further open access operations, as we are no longer subject to EU rules.

Seeing how many OA are to enter service from '25 to '27, I don't think that part will change for another 10 years at least. Especially as that would become extremely unpopular with the city pairs added by Hull Trains, and the less expensive ECML with Lumo (especially with the LNER trial ****show)

 

[station_road]

I've never seen that. Which route does it follow?

It goes down a street parallel to Euston Road behind the Francis Crick Institute and avoids much of the traffic/pollution/noise - it is well signposted from the Euston end I think, I'm not sure about from St Pancras.

There is a map here

https://www.kingsplace.co.uk/urban-partners-wellbeing-walk/

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nothing. It is nothing to do with GBR.

Except that GBR will own the domestic Southeastern TOC service on HS1, and the Network Rail part of GBR maintains HS1 on contract to the private capacity owners.
So somewhat semi-detached, but still at the table.
GBR will also operate passenger rail links to international ports like Harwich, Holyhead, Portsmouth and Southampton (and others).
"SailRail" etc.

 

[Magdalia]

It goes down a street parallel to Euston Road behind the Francis Crick Institute and avoids much of the traffic/pollution/noise - it is well signposted from the Euston end I think, I'm not sure about from St Pancras.

There is a map here

https://www.kingsplace.co.uk/urban-partners-wellbeing-walk/

From the Euston end walk along Eversholt Street, alongside platform 1, then turn right into Phoenix Road. This leads straight on into Brill Place which runs along the northern side of the Francis Crick Institute building coming out onto Midland Road just north of the St Pancras entrance that's near the Thameslink barriers. Going the other way exit St Pancras near the Thameslink barriers, cross Midland Road, go along the northern side of the Francis Crick Institute building, carrying straight on along Brill Place and Phoenix Road until you reach Eversholt Street, then turn left for Euston.

 

[vuzzeho]

Surely it’s outside the scope of GBR?

Is it? As a nationalised operator, wouldn't it be in their interest to have some sort of service managed by them operating on our international rail link, instead of giving it to the private Eurostar? I'm no expert on any of this but I feel like having some sort of international rail operations done by GBR would be good.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it? As a nationalised operator, wouldn't it be in their interest to have some sort of service managed by them operating on our international rail link, instead of giving it to the private Eurostar? I'm no expert on any of this but I feel like having some sort of international rail operations done by GBR would be good.

I certainly get the impression that a lot of people would like GBR to have full and total control of the railway in this country including all passenger and freight operations removing all private profit.

However, the reason this makes most sense for the passenger operations is because there is an implicit link between public subsidy contributing to private profits. This is less clear on freight, open access and Eurostar which in theory operate commercially, although the 'hidden' subsidy to Network Rail, grants to freight installations and other government funding possibly does amount to something similar. Some will also think that if private companies are running profitable operations then it indicates that prices to the consumer are too high.

It is hard to argue that GBR should have international operations if overseas companies can't have international operations on the British rail network.

 

[vuzzeho]

I certainly get the impression that a lot of people would like GBR to have full and total control of the railway in this country including all passenger and freight operations removing all private profit.

However, the reason this makes most sense for the passenger operations is because there is an implicit link between public subsidy contributing to private profits. This is less clear on freight, open access and Eurostar which in theory operate commercially, although the 'hidden' subsidy to Network Rail, grants to freight installations and other government funding possibly does amount to something similar. Some will also think that if private companies are running profitable operations then it indicates that prices to the consumer are too high.

It is hard to argue that GBR should have international operations if overseas companies can't have international operations on the British rail network.

I realise my post was worded that way. I think Eurostar should remain, but it has a monopoly on our rail link. Wouldn't it be part of GBR's job to ensure better services, including international services, by sometimes operating services themselves? As a competitor to Eurostar, that is.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HMG/DfT leased the government's access rights on HS1 to the private sector in 2010 for 30 years, so we are about half way through that period.
That transaction can't just be terminated without compensation, though the government ultimately owns the route and stations.
HMG/Treasury sold its 40% interest in Eurostar International to the private sector (Canadian and US funders) in 2015.
That's why Eurostar was not eligible for UK support funds during the covid crisis, though it did get French and Belgian support from their state-owned shares.

 

[signed]

but it has a monopoly on our rail link

It does only de facto. There is nothing preventing competition legally (AFAIK, I can be wrong though).

The main thing preventing other operators from operating the route are the UK policies about border controls that makes such arrangements extremely unappealing to even the biggest state-owned railways (DB is very likely to have thrown the towel on Frankfurt to London and the talks about Renfe, operating from Madrid/Barcelona, to me are very ludicrous and make little sense)

 

[Mikw]

What i want to know is how much the "simpler" (Much more expensive) LNER fares "trial" is an idea of LNER or if they're the guinea pigs of a possible GBR fares revision.

 

[alistairlees]

What i want to know is how much the "simpler" (Much more expensive) LNER fares "trial" is an idea of LNER or if they're the guinea pigs of a possible GBR fares revision.

It predates GBR. LNER provided a disproportionate number of people to early GBR anyway.

 

[HSTEd]

I'd prefer GBR focus its resources on developing domestic rail travel. Eurostar et al is a niche transport method for international travel and its likely the big fish in a small pond - I'm skeptical there is really much growth potential there.

Modernisation of HS1's infrastructure may allow substantial increases in capacity, especially with the possibilities of ETCS, ATO and autoreverse, but this should be focussed on domestic services rather than Eurostar.
My view is that the Southeastern high speed services still have a lot of additional potential.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It very much is within the GBR remit.

Whilst there's no talk of taking over and nationalising Eurostar (although contrary to what some have said, it IS possible, although there would be an almighty fall out).

Fares reform etc won't touch ES, but operations, planning, track access etc are all being contemplated. Some commercial reform projects may 'interact'.

Given this is the speculative section, I can probably say some minor consideration has been given to what paths are available to the continent, and not for DB/Virgin

 

[Hadders]

What i want to know is how much the "simpler" (Much more expensive) LNER fares "trial" is an idea of LNER or if they're the guinea pigs of a possible GBR fares revision.

I suspect we'll see big price hikes for less flexibility.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I suspect we'll see big price hikes for less flexibility.

There's two more TOCs scheduled between now and mid/late 2025. One wholly intercity in nature and one a mixed bag not serving London. Some differences to the LNER trial, to test out different demographics and markets.

 

[MarkyT]

It goes down a street parallel to Euston Road behind the Francis Crick Institute and avoids much of the traffic/pollution/noise - it is well signposted from the Euston end I think, I'm not sure about from St Pancras.

There is a map here

https://www.kingsplace.co.uk/urban-partners-wellbeing-walk/

Ease of transfer could improve with the east side access that TfL planned for Euston a few years ago. That is designed to line up with the Phoenix Rd walking route and provide access to remaining classic platforms at the terminal via the defunct parcels deck, presumubly interfacing with whatever HS2 eventually builds on the west side of the station. TfL has an interest in Euston mainline station because its Watford DC line service terminates there.

 

[Yew]

Personally, I would very much like to see Nightstar operations. London, down to Milan, Marseille or Barcelona.

 

[WAB]

There's two more TOCs scheduled between now and mid/late 2025. One wholly intercity in nature and one a mixed bag not serving London. Some differences to the LNER trial, to test out different demographics and markets.

Sounds like Avanti and XC to me.

XC in particular is already such a **** experience, I don't get why you'd want to make it worse. Take a look at several daytime runs late next week and you won't be able to get advances during the day at all. The idea of coughing up for anytime tickets sounds like a great way to kill off demand altogether.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Sounds like Avanti and XC to me.

XC in particular is already such a **** experience, I don't get why you'd want to make it worse. Take a look at several daytime runs late next week and you won't be able to get advances during the day at all. The idea of coughing up for anytime tickets sounds like a great way to kill off demand altogether.

XC is being left alone, for good reason too.

 

[LLivery]

It would be in GBR's interest to increase international passenger numbers. Domestic services would of course feed into international services ‐ getting Ashford reopened could be great for that. With potential operators looking at cross‐channel operations, GBR investing in one could make a lot of sense. But I can't see it happening until GBR is very well established.

With a less hostile government to Europe, I hope the government itself will seek to work out the logistical problems with expanding rail services to Germany, Switzerland, etc. as part of a better European relationship. What that would look like? I have no idea, but they can surely think of a solution, as its no longer a situation of 'Have you seen who the Home Sec is?'. Personally, I think the upcoming visa‐waiver scheme is unnecessary (thank you 'oven ready deal'), and the UK should seek to be included in border data sharing to make it unnecessary, stopping short of reinstating FoM (unfortunately).