December 2024 timetable change

[OliverH68]

c2c also up if that interests anyone!

Avanti just remains it seems.

 

[Toby268]

So probably just some extra Liverpools then, if there are any Avanti changes.

More than likely just a few extra liverpools and the return of the 1705 Euston to Blackpool service which was a cut to allow hitachi training to be done.

 

[Peter0124]

When will the 807s be in service on Liverpools? Or 805s even?

 

[hexagon789]

When will the 807s be in service on Liverpools? Or 805s even?

Aren't some 807s planned to appear from December?

Though yes, I think the power supply issues are supposed to mean the 805s will appear on Liverpool runs before 807s.

Will be interesting how they do it, given it's the missing services that are the 390 ones and the existing ones are 80x. You'd hope any services switched to 80x are in the same hour as a 390 additional, otherwise capacity could be a problem with just a 5-car 805 unit?

 

[Kite159]

Aren't some 807s planned to appear from December?

Though yes, I think the power supply issues are supposed to mean the 805s will appear on Liverpool runs before 807s.

Will be interesting how they do it, given it's the missing services that are the 390 ones and the existing ones are 80x. You'd hope any services switched to 80x are in the same hour as a 390 additional, otherwise capacity could be a problem with just a 5-car 805 unit?

Unless they run the Liverpool trains as doubled up 805s?

 

[hexagon789]

Unless they run the Liverpool trains as doubled up 805s?

Do they have enough?

 

[AJDesiro]

Unless they run the Liverpool trains as doubled up 805s?

There'd need to be around 5 diagrams, which would equate to 10 (out of the 13) 805s, which isn't enough when all of the Voyagers will be gone by December, and the 805s will be needed for the Chester/Holyhead services.

I reckon the most likely thing to happen until the power supply issues are sorted will be the current 1tph service with either an 807 or 390 (an 807 has more standard class seating than a 9.390).

 

[Peter0124]

Avanti is now up!

 

[hexagon789]

Avanti is now up!

Looks like:

1 extra down Blackpool via Trent Valley
2 extra Liverpool 'fasts' calling Tamworth & Lichfield each way
2 extra Birmingham 'fasts' each way

 

[Toby268]

Really quite interesting what they’ve done with the Chester and Holyhead’s. The WTT has a departure time of xx:02 of Euston but the passenger timetable is xx:00 which effectively means if they get the road out Euston they can leave 2 minutes earlier than the WTT. Assuming this has been done to alleviate the issues with 80xs struggling to keep to time whilst the new speed profiles are not live.

What’s a shame is the lack of south parkway calls on the 2 extra liverpools or on any of the existing ones. Presumably so all of the services can use Pendolinos. Maybe next timetable change…

Looks like:

1 extra down Blackpool via Trent Valley
2 extra Liverpool 'fasts' calling Tamworth & Lichfield each way
2 extra Birmingham 'fasts' each way

The 1703 Blackpool is just the return of a service taken out of this timetable (that was supposed to have returned by now) to help with hitachi training. Nonetheless good that it’s back.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Firstly there are no later last trains from Kings Cross to north of Cambridge on Mondays to Fridays, despite such being promised in the 2018 draft timetable.

What’s the relevance of the 2018 draft timetable in December 2024? It’s 6 years ago and it was a different operating contract. It’s akin to saying the 1991 ECML post electrification timetable promised direct trains from King’s Cross to Glasgow every 2 hours!

 

[dk1]

Really quite interesting what they’ve done with the Chester and Holyhead’s. The WTT has a departure time of xx:02 of Euston but the passenger timetable is xx:00 which effectively means if they get the road out Euston they can leave 2 minutes earlier than the WTT. Assuming this has been done to alleviate the issues with 80xs struggling to keep to time whilst the new speed profiles are not live.


The 1703 Blackpool is just the return of a service taken out of this timetable (that was supposed to have returned by now) to help with hitachi training. Nonetheless good that it’s back.

Was that the old 17:10 due into North at 20:10?

 

[Toby268]

Was that the old 17:10 due into North at 20:10?

Yes I believe it was, although in the last 2 timetable changes it had been booked to leave at 1705 since it was pathed as an 80x. Once again the WTT has a departure of 1705 but the passenger GBTT is 1703 now.

 

[dk1]

Yes I believe it was, although in the last 2 timetable changes it had been booked to leave at 1705 since it was pathed as an 80x.

Cheers. So refreshing to see a service that doesn’t go round the houses from London.

 

[Bald Rick]

Really quite interesting what they’ve done with the Chester and Holyhead’s. The WTT has a departure time of xx:02 of Euston but the passenger timetable is xx:00 which effectively means if they get the road out Euston they can leave 2 minutes earlier than the WTT. Assuming this has been done to alleviate the issues with 80xs struggling to keep to time whilst the new speed profiles are not live.

Correct.

 

[james60059]

I see the Fishguard Harbour Boat Train starts back from Cardiff Central again with a 10:06 departure, and reversals at Swansea and Carmarthen, arriving at 12:50. The return journey goes to Manchester Piccadilly (I've used 8th January 2025 as date).

The current pattern goes Swansea - Fishguard Harbour (avoiding Carmarthen) whilst the return to Cardiff Central uses the Swansea District Line avoiding Cardiff (I used 27/08/24)

 

[WAB]

What’s the relevance of the 2018 draft timetable in December 2024? It’s 6 years ago and it was a different operating contract. It’s akin to saying the 1991 ECML post electrification timetable promised direct trains from King’s Cross to Glasgow every 2 hours!

It's part of a wider history of improved services being promised on GN, under WAGN, FCC, GTR and now post-covid GTR. These inevitably fall by the wayside. I suspect the hope was that these timetable improvements might actually be introduced and stuck with...

 

[bramling]

By this do they mean that an additional 2 services on top of the 6 already planned? If so, then in my opinion the bigger blocker is probably driver headcount - I struggle to see how they will crew the new trains already planned, yet alone more.

Not really sure but assume it means going from three trips each peak to four, so yes two extra services altogether.

Agree in respect of the crewing, as you say they struggle to run what they promise now.

 

[83G/84D]

No sign of any GWR services at Newquay from December (timetable change) onwards at the moment and the current timetable is shown as continuing between Truro and Falmouth only.

So when is it hoped that the Cornwall Metro service involving through trains between Newquay and Falmouth, will start?

 

[Bald Rick]

No sign of any GWR services at Newquay from December (timetable change) onwards at the moment and the current timetable is shown as continuing between Truro and Falmouth only.

So when is it hoped that the Cornwall Metro service involving through trains between Newquay and Falmouth, will start?

After the infrastructure work is done.

 

[The Planner]

Really quite interesting what they’ve done with the Chester and Holyhead’s. The WTT has a departure time of xx:02 of Euston but the passenger timetable is xx:00 which effectively means if they get the road out Euston they can leave 2 minutes earlier than the WTT. Assuming this has been done to alleviate the issues with 80xs struggling to keep to time whilst the new speed profiles are not live.

Yes, PBing (public book) is a normal way of doing stuff like that. It happens everywhere where a ½ minute departure or arrival is as well.

 

[Harpo]

Then the potential for more hours with three Euston/Birmingham services, allowing more Euston-Birmingham-Scotland to run fast Euston/Coventry.

If that would allow the ‘via Birminghams’ to be be formed by the subsequent Euston - Birmingham (i.e. run 20 later from Euston) and drop those ridiculous 19 minute festers at New Street, Wolverhampton would get a massive journey time improvement.

 

[AJDesiro]

If that would allow the ‘via Birminghams’ to be be formed by the subsequent Euston - Birmingham (i.e. run 20 later from Euston) and drop those ridiculous 19 minute festers at New Street, Wolverhampton would get a massive journey time improvement.

Now that 3tph are running more often on Euston-Birmingham’s, the services to Wolverhampton (and beyond) don’t have as long a dwell at New St (it’s now 11 minutes). This is the planned end phase timetable, which was meant to be for the December 2022 recast, once rolling stock and staffing permits a full return to 3tph.

 

[Phillipimo]

Looks like:

1 extra down Blackpool via Trent Valley
2 extra Liverpool 'fasts' calling Tamworth & Lichfield each way
2 extra Birmingham 'fasts' each way

Having a closer look at the extra Liverpool trains, they all have different calling patterns but all include Tamworth, Lichfield and Runcorn.

2 extra Up trains: 09:02 and 10:04 from Liverpool taking 2h28m and 2h26m.
The 09:02 has a 5 minute 'unadvertised crew stop' at Crewe and also calls at Rugby to pick up only.
The 10:02 stops at Crewe but not Rugby.

2 extra Down trains: 13:07 and 16:02 from Euston taking 2h15m and 2h35m.
The 13:07 stops Tamworth, Lichfield and Runcorn only.
The 16:02 also calls at Stafford and Crewe.

All run around 20 minutes after the existing services so not perfectly half hourly and a shame about the slower journey times but it will certainly help!

 

[43055]

Having a closer look at the extra Liverpool trains, they all have different calling patterns but all include Tamworth, Lichfield and Runcorn.

2 extra Up trains: 09:02 and 10:04 from Liverpool taking 2h28m and 2h26m.
The 09:02 has a 5 minute 'unadvertised crew stop' at Crewe and also calls at Rugby to pick up only.
The 10:02 stops at Crewe but not Rugby.

2 extra Down trains: 13:07 and 16:02 from Euston taking 2h15m and 2h35m.
The 13:07 stops Tamworth, Lichfield and Runcorn only.
The 16:02 also calls at Stafford and Crewe.

All run around 20 minutes after the existing services so not perfectly half hourly and a shame about the slower journey times but it will certainly help!

As a result of the 0902 from Liverpool stopping at Lichfield and Tamworth the 0920 from Chester now runs in the normal path and calling pattern at 0932.

Also seems to be the return of the following giving a closer to hourly service to Chester:
Weekdays:
1102 London - Chester
1132 Chester - London (splitting off the 0902 to Holyhead)
1402 London - Chester (joining with the 1632 back to London)

1332 could be added soon as a return of the 1102 from London?

Saturdays:
0832 Chester - London
1102 London - Chester
1332 Chester - London
1502 London - Chester (no next working showing at the moment)

 

[MikeWM]

What’s the relevance of the 2018 draft timetable in December 2024?

Because, small tweaks apart, they're still running that timetable today. You can still see the relic of the proposed timetable in the timings of the late night services to Kings Lynn, at 2039, 2139, 2239, 2309 - the latter was 'supposed' to be at 2339.

I appreciate from previous iterations of this discussion that the problem was probably with NR rather than GTR, though I'm still not sure why Cambridge to Ely 'requires' a longer overnight closure than say Ely to Kings Lynn, or Cambridge to Royston. Perhaps if they ever used one of their weekend closures to properly fix the track between Waterbeach and Ely, which has been in a poor state for years, they wouldn't need such long daily closures.

It’s akin to saying the 1991 ECML post electrification timetable promised direct trains from King’s Cross to Glasgow every 2 hours!

No it isn't. The ECML timetable has been recast a number of times since then.

 

[Harpo]

Now that 3tph are running more often on Euston-Birmingham’s, the services to Wolverhampton (and beyond) don’t have as long a dwell at New St (it’s now 11 minutes). This is the planned end phase timetable, which was meant to be for the December 2022 recast, once rolling stock and staffing permits a full return to 3tph.

There are still 5 services that stand for 19 minutes at New Street and continue to do so from December according to current uploads.

Journey times to Wolves on direct trains from London are so awful that even the NRES journey planner offers 'via Stafford' as the faster option, sometimes saving more than 30 minutes by leaving later yet still arriving before the direct train!

 

[3RDGEN]

No sign of any GWR services at Newquay from December (timetable change) onwards at the moment and the current timetable is shown as continuing between Truro and Falmouth only.

So when is it hoped that the Cornwall Metro service involving through trains between Newquay and Falmouth, will start?

"https://midcornwallmetro.com/" - Is currently showing May 2025 for the hourly Newquay - Par service introduction and 2026 for extension to Truro / Falmouth.

 

[Farigiraf]

Has there been any indication of an improved Sunday Norwich service from Cambridge in the future? Currently it's 1tph Stansted-Cambridge with 1tp2h extending to Norwich, similar to the XC Stansted service to Birmingham, and while going via Stowmarket is possible, the lack of e.g. a 9am departure to Norwich is surprising. Seems like this should be something on GA's priority list for the 2025 timetable change (unless this is another Ely North Junction blockade, in which case it's a dead end...).

 

[The Planner]

There are still 5 services that stand for 19 minutes at New Street and continue to do so from December according to current uploads.

Journey times to Wolves on direct trains from London are so awful that even the NRES journey planner offers 'via Stafford' as the faster option, sometimes saving more than 30 minutes by leaving later yet still arriving before the direct train!

The minimum you are going to get is 11 minutes as the New St arrivals are xx27 xx46 and xx56. The xx07 can't go any earlier as the Liverpool has the xx04 slot.