Northern issue "DO NOT TRAVEL" warning for 08/09/2024

[startingaparty]

It appears that Northern have issued a "DO NOT TRAVEL" alert covering the below:

• Manchester Victoria – Stalybridge
• Manchester Victoria – Chester
• Manchester Piccadilly - Chester
• Manchester Piccadilly – Stoke
• Liverpool – Blackpool

Apparently, there will be no RRB due to a "DO NOT TRAVEL" alert being issued. Does anyone know why Northern is absolved of it's responsibilities because they put 3 magic words onto social media?

 

[sportzbar]

It appears that Northern have issued a "DO NOT TRAVEL" alert covering the below:

• Manchester Victoria – Stalybridge
• Manchester Victoria – Chester
• Manchester Piccadilly - Chester
• Manchester Piccadilly – Stoke
• Liverpool – Blackpool

Apparently, there will be no RRB due to a "DO NOT TRAVEL" alert being issued. Does anyone know why Northern is absolved of it's responsibilities because they put 3 magic words onto social media?

Probably because there just isn't any RRBs available in numbers to guarantee even a skeleton service on the routes affected. Those RRBs available will already be running between Bolton and Wigan, and. Victoria to Rochdale. Until guards start volunteering to work on their contracted day off (Sunday) again, instead of enjoying their contracted day off with family and friends etc then this will likely continue......

 

[Robertj21a]

Probably because there just isn't any RRBs available in numbers to guarantee even a skeleton service on the routes affected. Those RRBs available will already be running between Bolton and Wigan, and. Victoria to Rochdale. Until guards start volunteering to work on their contracted day off (Sunday) again, instead of enjoying their contracted day off with family and friends etc then this will likely continue......

It's all a very poor position - for all train users. Wherever they travel they'll have in the back of their minds that trains aren't very reliable. After ASLEF and RMT neverending disputes have gone on for years it's not surprising that so many have switched to alternatives.
As for RRB buses there are only going to be a few operators who could take on the work - and their drivers may also like to have their days off!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably because there just isn't any RRBs available in numbers to guarantee even a skeleton service on the routes affected. Those RRBs available will already be running between Bolton and Wigan, and. Victoria to Rochdale. Until guards start volunteering to work on their contracted day off (Sunday) again, instead of enjoying their contracted day off with family and friends etc then this will likely continue......

More likely, as with taxis, they won't pay the going rate. Pay enough and there will be buses.

 

[Towers]

This RRB situation really does need sorting out…

It’s notable during many planned RRB operations just how far some vehicles now travel. It would certainly be interesting, to say the least, to understand the measures that a TOC does take or must take to establish that there is no RRB support available - is this outlined anywhere, I wonder? The majority, if not all, RRB is now sourced via a third party contractor I presume (e.g. First Travel Solutions etc); are these contractors simply telling the TOCs “no can do”, which seems surprising when they have national reach? Or do the TOCs give them a maximum price they’re willing to pay, or are the TOCs deciding “no RRB” from the outset? If so, how is that permitted, and why? Clearly outlined, publicly available rules on this might be a useful thing, given the current prevalence of certain operators effectively closing down the railway without alternative on any given day.

 

[Mag_seven]

This RRB situation really does need sorting out…

Or even better the rail service which Northern are paid a handsome subsidy to operate.

 

[Towers]

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Or even better the rail service which Northern are paid a handsome subsidy to operate.

Well, yes!

 

[sportzbar]

More likely, as with taxis, they won't pay the going rate. Pay enough and there will be buses.

The problem is not just about "Pay enough and there will be buses".

RRBs have to have some form of disability access now and apart from the bigger bus companies, the smaller ones who take on this work with spare capacity won't invest in the new vehicles required just for the temporary contract to run on Sundays.

The drivers of these RRBs might also not want to work Sundays if they also aren't contracted to do so.

And finally as I already stated there is a massive amount of engineering work taking place this weekend so those RRBs and drivers that are available will have already been contracted out by Network Rail months ago leaving no RRB availablity for Northern.

The only other option is taxis but again there is only a finate amount available.....

 

[Towers]

The problem is not just about "Pay enough and there will be buses".

RRBs have to have some form of disability access now and apart from the bigger bus companies, the smaller ones who take on this work with spare capacity won't invest in the new vehicles required just for the temporary contract to run on Sundays.

The drivers of these RRBs might also not want to work Sundays if they also aren't contracted to do so.

And finally as I already stated there is a massive amount of engineering work taking place this weekend so those RRBs and drivers that are available will have already been contracted out by Network Rail months ago leaving no RRB availablity for Northern.

The only other option is taxis but again there is only a finate amount available.....

Again though, some transparency in the public domain on the measures taken to establish that this is the case on any given date, would be appropriate.

 

[sportzbar]

Again though, some transparency in the public domain on the measures taken to establish that this is the case on any given date, would be appropriate.

The only transparency you will get from Northern is to blame "train crew" which encompasses both drivers and guards. The issue doesn't involve drivers. They are already in at depots on their contracted Sundays, Guards are not. But the theme from Northern is that it's "train crew unavailability".

And that's the narrative the current senior management want to trot out every time as the root cause. What they don't say is that the ball is in their court to get round the table and offer better incentives for guards to come in on their day off. That would stop all.ofnthisnin a heartbeat.

But they won't because it's easier to deflect and blame someone else as the root cause, which going off social media and most mainstream media is working just fine for them.....

 

[dk1]

We’ve got lots of RR buses here in GA land today but so many spare drivers the messroom will be standing room only.

 

[185]

Was fortunate enough to be involved a brief study some time ago, looking at how certain Northern depots staff morale became so low.

From the 'blame culture' responses such as 'you'd get an amber for having a button undone on your shirt' sort of underlines why there is little or no incentive for staff to come in, it's not entirely about the money. Seems to be a culture of the more that managers assessing can report, the more likely they are to be promoted - a Virgin/Avanti ethos that fails spectacularly.

Whilst not working for Northern I was quite (un)fortunate enough to witness how one person manning the TCS desk spoke to an employee like a dog.

There's some good managers, but a lot of awful, nasty ones whose behaviour directly impacts on performance ie noone volunteers, as.. well, why would you?

 

[JonathanH]

We’ve got lots of RR buses here in GA land today but so many spare drivers the messroom will be standing room only.

This is where GBR will hopefully see those spare drivers transported to another part of the country to ensure the railway runs there!

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

This is where GBR will hopefully see those spare drivers transported to another part of the country to ensure the railway runs there!

They won't have route or traction knowledge

 

[JonathanH]

They won't have route or traction knowledge

Yes, my comment was slightly tongue in cheek about the idealised future railway that people talk of. The previous poster was boasting of a full messroom.

 

[Towers]

Was fortunate enough to be involved a brief study some time ago, looking at how certain Northern depots staff morale became so low.

From the 'blame culture' responses such as 'you'd get an amber for having a button undone on your shirt' sort of underlines why there is little or no incentive for staff to come in, it's not entirely about the money. Seems to be a culture of the more that managers assessing can report, the more likely they are to be promoted - a Virgin/Avanti ethos that fails spectacularly.

Whilst not working for Northern I was quite (un)fortunate enough to witness how one person manning the TCS desk spoke to an employee like a dog.

There's some good managers, but a lot of awful, nasty ones whose behaviour directly impacts on performance ie noone volunteers, as.. well, why would you?

That’s interesting. Did your study go deep enough to establish the backgrounds of those managers - i.e. former crew / operational experience, or none at all etc? This is sometimes, although by no means always, relevant.

 

[dk1]

This is where GBR will hopefully see those spare drivers transported to another part of the country to ensure the railway runs there!

That’s never going to happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Just seen your following comment though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Not so much boasting. It’s very much the norm here.

 

[Snow1964]

More likely, as with taxis, they won't pay the going rate. Pay enough and there will be buses.

You could use same argument pay enough and a rail charter operator might consider the work.

Or (unthinkable) offer a special bonus / overtime premium to rail staff to encourage them to volunteer for overtime work, until they get act together and staff it properly with sufficient weekend staff

 

[Towers]

You could use same argument pay enough and a rail charter operator might consider the work.

Or (unthinkable) offer a special bonus / overtime premium to rail staff to encourage them to volunteer for overtime work, until they get act together and staff it properly with sufficient weekend staff

Nobody is suggesting that it isn’t costly of course, but the question is at what point does it become accpetable / authorised for a TOC to decide it’s too expensive to find an alternative, be that road or rail, and ditch any sort of service for the day?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

You could use same argument pay enough and a rail charter operator might consider the work.

Do any charter operators have enough units and staff with the suitable route knowledge to cover all of Northern's failiues?

And the lack of buses isn't only restricted to Sundays, the current Wigan-Bolton electrification works have half the buses running as there would've been trains, on any day, which means instead of getting the bus, I've commuted by car this week.

 

[Snow1964]

Nobody is suggesting that it isn’t costly of course, but the question is at what point does it become accpetable / authorised for a TOC to decide it’s too expensive to find an alternative, be that road or rail, and ditch any sort of service for the day?

Seems to have become acceptable when the penalties and fines by regulator for non-performance are lower than cost of performing the service.

A deterrent that is cheaper is not a deterrent, and a gutless regulator is waste of space.

 

[43066]

Apparently, there will be no RRB due to a "DO NOT TRAVEL" alert being issued.

Isn’t it the other way around? The TOC isn’t incentivising the staff to attend work when they don’t have to, and neither is it able to source RRBs (either because it can’t pay enough, or because they aren’t available in sufficient numbers), so the “do not travel” warning is a response to these factors, rather than the cause.

In the circumstances what else can they realistically do? The alternative is saying nothing and people turning up and finding there are mass cancellations, leading to massive delays, dangerous overcrowding etc.

Does anyone know why Northern is absolved of it's responsibilities because they put 3 magic words onto social media?

Presumably Northern as an OLR owned operator feels its responsibility is to the DfT who fund it and they, in turn, clearly feel that Northern passengers being inconvenienced isn’t something they need to worry about, or spend any money sorting out. This same issue has now recurred several times, so they’ve had plenty of time to work out a solution (most obviously incentivising staff to work on Sundays). Clearly at this point they simply don’t wish to! Perhaps there is scope for that to change with the new government.

One potentially good thing about GBR will be that people stop blaming individual TOCs for decisions taken by the DfT.

 

[father_jack]

As someone far away from Northern land, I was looking at staying near Moston Sunday week, the line is closed anyway for engineering works but do Northern get ticket acceptance on local service buses when the traincrew situation falls to bits regularly or as extra when there's engineering work ???

 

[TUC]

We’ve got lots of RR buses here in GA land today but so many spare drivers the messroom will be standing room only.

Why roster them for days when fewer are needed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Presumably Northern as an OLR owned operator feels its responsibility is to the DfT who fund it and they, in turn, clearly feel that Northern passengers being inconvenienced isn’t something they need to worry about, or spend any money sorting out. This same issue has now recurred several times, so they’ve had plenty of time to work out a solution (most obviously incentivising staff to work on Sundays). Clearly at this point they simply don’t wish to! Perhaps there is scope for that to change with the new government.

One potentially good thing about GBR will be that people stop blaming individual TOCs for decisions taken by the DfT.

Or will GBR will be a complacent monopoly who make even less effort?

 

[D9006]

More likely, as with taxis, they won't pay the going rate. Pay enough and there will be buses.

As a Transport manager for a small firm that did RR work in the Wigan area , when planned engineering work tenders sent out a price for the trip was already attached to it. I remember looking at paperwork for doing Man Vic to Blackpool North , it involved 4 round trips in total for each bus, there being 3 buses out. The price worked out at £280 for a round trip, as I said to the company resourcing the work a manchester based coach company would you do a trip from Manchester to Blackpool for that price, no they said it be close to £500. In the end price was agreed at £360 a round trip. Give people a clue as to firm, you could have got some really good Titan mileage in that day, I was out in T27 along with T95, 800 and 1002.

 

[TUC]

As a Transport manager for a small firm that did RR work in the Wigan area , when planned engineering work tenders sent out a price for the trip was already attached to it. I remember looking at paperwork for doing Man Vic to Blackpool North , it involved 4 round trips in total for each bus, there being 3 buses out. The price worked out at £280 for a round trip, as I said to the company resourcing the work a manchester based coach company would you do a trip from Manchester to Blackpool for that price, no they said it be close to £500. In the end price was agreed at £360 a round trip. Give people a clue as to firm, you could have got some really good Titan mileage in that day, I was out in T27 along with T95, 800 and 1002.

What's the point of going out to tender with a price already attached? Isn't the purpose of tendering to see what is the lowest price offered?

 

[43066]

Or will GBR will be a complacent monopoly who make even less effort?

Well yes, that is a risk!

 

[yorkie]

..... Does anyone know why Northern is absolved of it's responsibilities because they put 3 magic words onto social media?

Northern are still responsible for providing transport in line with any existing contracts, and if they refuse to do so, they are liable for the reasonable costs incurred by passengers.

It's less clear what the situation is when a customer hasn't yet purchased a ticket, which is why I always advertise purchasing (a) ticket(s) for the entire journey, covering all legs, clearly showing a valid itinerary, in advance, wherever possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

.. The alternative is saying nothing and people turning up and finding there are mass cancellations, leading to massive delays, dangerous overcrowding etc...

Clearly Northern can't say nothing, but it's not a binary choice between that and what Northern actually say.

Northern don't appear to have anyone at a high up position in the company who understands how to communicate appropriately and effectively.

Northern's communication is consistently diabolical, on a wide range of topics, both internally and externally.

Northern's leadership team and management are utterly incompetent (and yes, I expect they will be reading this, getting irate but refusing to learn from their mistakes, and trying to figure out if anyone is criticising them who they can make threats against, as that has happened before).

 

[TUC]

Northern are still responsible for providing transport in line with any existing contracts, and if they refuse to do so, they are liable for the reasonable costs incurred by passengers.

It's less clear what the situation is when a customer hasn't yet purchased a ticket, which is why I always advertise purchasing (a) ticket(s) for the entire journey, covering all legs, clearly showing a valid itinerary, in advance, wherever possible.

Out of curiosity, I just searched on the Northern app for Manchester Victoria-Stalybridge tickets for tomorrow and, apart from some journeys showing as cancelled, there is no Do Not Travel warning showing so Northern would seem to have the sme responsibilities towards those purchasing tickets today.

 

[D9006]

What's the point of going out to tender with a price already attached? Isn't the purpose of tendering to see what is the lowest price offered?

They dictated the pricing, we did a late night wigan to Southport once covering 10pm from Wigan for a full week, the price was £150. During school holidays with no other work for staff . Even late Preston to Crewe for a week was the same. It was all about coverage. Did a summer hoilday stand by at North western 6am to 6pm that was £250, first 50 miles included in price. So a much as would like to have paid a good rate to drivers the price already set, plenty coach firms then willing to do any job for any price. Only suited us as in school holidays. Once schools back no chance. Even on emergency work they ring up and say the price will be this, usually met with no thanks. I can remember once station supervisor ringing from wallgate station asking if had a bus spare to do run to Southport as train broken down and train was full in platform(Southport flower show). I wen out myself in T95 left with a full standing load, as everyone was going Southport superviso said Southport only please. When got Southport supervisor asked did I call all stations not a chance with DD, said that’s useless then I replied not really as we have 90+ on this bus alone a coach would be 53 at best. Many a time Wallgate use to ring us directly before it was sourced to agents .