Services to Northampton

[CHobbs]

Does anybody else agree that Northampton’s rail service is awful? Two trains an hour in each direction for a town biggger than many cities with a population of over 250,000?

 

[DaventryRabbit]

As a local I agree. It was 3tph for a time pre Covid.

 

[JonathanH]

Does anybody else agree that Northampton’s rail service is awful? Two trains an hour in each direction for a town biggger than many cities with a population of over 250,000?

The population is not directly correlated to passenger demand. There is only one line through Northampton, and the trains link it to the destinations on that line. There are three trains an hour in the weekday peak.

Clearly it suffers from there being an avoiding line, but half hourly off peak trains to London and Birmingham isn't unreasonable.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Does anybody else agree that Northampton’s rail service is awful? Two trains an hour in each direction for a town biggger than many cities with a population of over 250,000?

I'm pretty sure in early Silverlink days in the late 90s/early 00s there were four trains from Euston to Northampton during certain hours?

 

[JonathanH]

I'm pretty sure in early Silverlink days in the late 90s/early 00s there were four trains from Euston to Northampton during certain hours?

Some of those would have been overtaken though. The WCML timetable now sees the stoppers terminate at Tring and Milton Keynes which is a lot more efficient than running them through to Northampton.

 

[Hadders]

The service isn't great, with a lower frequency than pre-covid which seems to have been slowed down as well.

ISTR there was one train an hour than did Euston to Northampton in 52 minutes.

 

[CHobbs]

I'm pretty sure in early Silverlink days in the late 90s/early 00s there were four trains from Euston to Northampton during certain hours?

That’s what I was thinking .. I’m needing to travel down from Glasgow next weekend and the service seems to have become much less frequent with connections obviously

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

The population is not directly correlated to passenger demand. There is only one line through Northampton, and the trains link it to the destinations on that line. There are three trains an hour in the weekday peak.

Clearly it suffers from there being an avoiding line, but half hourly off peak trains to London and Birmingham isn't unreasonable.

Yes, that’s the normal ‘train enthusiast’ response but it doesn’t satisfy demand for the increasingly changing demographic and population, which has increased almost 40% between the last census and the previous one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

That’s what I was thinking .. I’m needing to travel down from Glasgow next weekend and the service seems to have become much less frequent with connections obviously

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==


Yes, that’s the normal ‘train enthusiast’ response but it doesn’t satisfy demand for the increasingly changing demographic and population, which has increased almost 40% between the last census and the previous one.

You have clearly never travelled on a train from Northampton, the cattle class (2nd rate) alternative service between Euston and Birmingham is simply not good enough. No fast services , Northampton has the same service experienced at Wolverton (a suburb of Milton Keynes) and Long Buckby ( a village) I would say that isn’t good enough

 

[JonathanH]

No fast services , Northampton has the same service experienced at Wolverton (a suburb of Milton Keynes) and Long Buckby ( a village) I would say that isn’t good enough

It is a matter of what fits though. Just because the train stops at Wolverton and Long Buckby doesn't make it 'slow'. Stopping at Wolverton, Milton Keynes, Bletchley, Leighton Buzzard and Watford Junction and using the fast line from Ledburn is the practical reality until HS2 releases capacity.

 

[Hadders]

Not all Northampton trains stop at Long Buckby or Wolverton.

I haven’t got time to check at the moment but Glasgow to Northampton has always been a bit of an awkward journey, and always will be.

Options off the top of my head:

Change at Crewe and Rugby
Change at Coventry (service from GLC to EUS via the West Midlands)
Change at MKC (will probably need a change at Warrington as there aren’t many direct GLC-MKC trains)

 

[The Planner]

Not all Northampton trains stop at Long Buckby or Wolverton.

I haven’t got time to check at the moment but Glasgow to Northampton has always been a bit of an awkward journey, and always will be.

Options off the top of my head:

Change at Crewe and Rugby
Change at Coventry (service from GLC to EUS via the West Midlands)
Change at MKC (will probably need a change at Warrington as there aren’t many direct GLC-MKC trains)

Depends on the time of day, you can change at Rugby off some of the Scottish West Mids ones.

 

[CHobbs]

Not all Northampton trains stop at Long Buckby or Wolverton.

I haven’t got time to check at the moment but Glasgow to Northampton has always been a bit of an awkward journey, and always will be.

Options off the top of my head:

Change at Crewe and Rugby
Change at Coventry (service from GLC to EUS via the West Midlands)
Change at MKC (will probably need a change at Warrington as there aren’t many direct GLC-MKC trains)

It’s usually the
16:40 change at MK or via Crewe and MK

 

[Magdalia]

Does anybody else agree that Northampton’s rail service is awful? Two trains an hour in each direction for a town biggger than many cities with a population of over 250,000?

Yes, that’s the normal ‘train enthusiast’ response but it doesn’t satisfy demand for the increasingly changing demographic and population, which has increased almost 40% between the last census and the previous one.

Care has to be taken when comparing the 2021 census with the 2011 census in Northamptonshire, because of the major local government reorganisation that eliminated the old Northamptonshire County Council.

It is possible to compare 2021 with 2011 for the two new unitary authorities, West Northamptonshire (which includes Northampton) and North Northamptonshire. Both of these had population increases of 13.5% between 2011 and 2021. This is a fairly rapid increase, but not as rapid as Cambridge, Peterborough or Bedford, which were all 17-18%. For Northampton to be increasing by 40%, South Northamptonshire and Daventry would need falling population to get to an increase of 13.5% for West Northamptonshire as a whole, so that's clearly not credible.

The 2021 census has a population figure for Northampton parish of 137k, but the parish did not exist until 2020 so there is no comparable figure for 2011.

 

[yorksrob]

Half hourly ain't bad for a train service. I regard that as "walk on".

The key is whether the two trains provide enough capacity for Northampton. (I've no idea on that one).

 

[weeklycommuter]

The East side of Northampton is a long way from Northampton Station. Wellingborough Station is a useful alternative for the East side of Northampton and provides better connections to many places such as St Pancras International, Luton and Gatwick Airports, Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'm pretty sure Northampton has always drawn the short straw when it comes to rail services. ISTR that in the early 60s it did get one or two WCML expresses routed that way per day, but after electrification almost nil. There was one token train per day all stops (intercity) to Crewe and return in the late 70s, I think. I suppose that was a spare intercity set that was needed for the morning and evening peaks.

Of course, it also lost all its E-W branches too. The ones westerward via Towcester were probably never much use. I think they went in around '58. Nor to Mkt Harborough - but Bedford and especially Wellingboro-Peterboro-Cambridge must have been really useful. Except, of course, not that many people travelled back in the day, and when they did, they'd mostly got cars.

Things improved dramatically with the Euston - Trent Valley - Stoke - Crewe semi-fast service came in in 2010 or so? Except the operator soon decided to ditch the Northampton stop in favour of a faster service va Weedon. (Kind of a repeat of the Worcester lost stop on the early Derby/Nottm - SW semi-fasts of the 1980s)

Doesn't really help that Rugby, relatively speaking, has been downgraded in favour of MK to boot in the past 50 years.

 

[CHobbs]

Care has to be taken when comparing the 2021 census with the 2011 census in Northamptonshire, because of the major local government reorganisation that eliminated the old Northamptonshire County Council.

It is possible to compare 2021 with 2011 for the two new unitary authorities, West Northamptonshire (which includes Northampton) and North Northamptonshire. Both of these had population increases of 13.5% between 2011 and 2021. This is a fairly rapid increase, but not as rapid as Cambridge, Peterborough or Bedford, which were all 17-18%. For Northampton to be increasing by 40%, South Northamptonshire and Daventry would need falling population to get to an increase of 13.5% for West Northamptonshire as a whole, so that's clearly not credible.

The 2021 census has a population figure for Northampton parish of 137k, but the parish did not exist until 2020 so there is no comparable figure for 2011.

Apologies, I have no idea what you are talking about? Did you comment on the rail service? The population of Northampton itself, the former borough is 250,000 in 2021 and was 189,000 in the previous census. So, back to the original post, do you agree the rail service is poor? If not, why comment?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

I'm pretty sure Northampton has always drawn the short straw when it comes to rail services. ISTR that in the early 60s it did get one or two WCML expresses routed that way per day, but after electrification almost nil. There was one token train per day all stops (intercity) to Crewe and return in the late 70s, I think. I suppose that was a spare intercity set that was needed for the morning and evening peaks.

Of course, it also lost all its E-W branches too. The ones westerward via Towcester were probably never much use. I think they went in around '58. Nor to Mkt Harborough - but Bedford and especially Wellingboro-Peterboro-Cambridge must have been really useful. Except, of course, not that many people travelled back in the day, and when they did, they'd mostly got cars.

Things improved dramatically with the Euston - Trent Valley - Stoke - Crewe semi-fast service came in in 2010 or so? Except the operator soon decided to ditch the Northampton stop in favour of a faster service va Weedon. (Kind of a repeat of the Worcester lost stop on the early Derby/Nottm - SW semi-fasts of the 1980s)

Doesn't really help that Rugby, relatively speaking, has been downgraded in favour of MK to boot in the past 50 years.

Agreed!

 

[zwk500]

That’s what I was thinking .. I’m needing to travel down from Glasgow next weekend and the service seems to have become much less frequent with connections obviously

Yes, that’s the normal ‘train enthusiast’ response but it doesn’t satisfy demand for the increasingly changing demographic and population, which has increased almost 40% between the last census and the previous one.

You have clearly never travelled on a train from Northampton, the cattle class (2nd rate) alternative service between Euston and Birmingham is simply not good enough. No fast services , Northampton has the same service experienced at Wolverton (a suburb of Milton Keynes) and Long Buckby ( a village) I would say that isn’t good enough

As a former resident of Wolverton for 5 years who had reasons to travel regularly to MK Central (work) and Northampton (Rugby/Friends), Half-Hourly is not unreasonable for the demand available. In the peaks there is a fast service from Northampton to Euston which doesn't call Wolverton, recognising that the overwhelming majority of demand at Northampton is for commuting into MK or London. Most trains were formed of 8 cars, although 4s could appear off-peak and 12 on-peak.

Northampton also has, largely by virtue of being the depot location, fairly early starts and late finishes to it's services. Last trains out of Euston are past 1am, last trains from Northampton to MK (which was very relevant to me at one point) around 2330.

 

[Magdalia]

Apologies, I have no idea what you are talking about? Did you comment on the rail service? The population of Northampton itself, the former borough is 250,000 in 2021 and was 189,000 in the previous census.

I am commenting about the statistics that you have quoted. I didn't recognise either of the numbers that you quoted from the 2021 census, and couldn't replicate them on the ONS website.

Even if your 2021 and 2011 figures are on the same geography, the %age increase from 189k to 250k is 32%.

If those figures for Northampton Borough are correct, then the population of Daventry plus South Northamptonshire has gone down from about 185k in 2011 to about 175k in 2021, a fall more than 5%. I don't think that's right, so I suspect that the 189k and 250k numbers are not on the same geography.

You claimed that the Northampton population had increased by "almost 40%": it hasn't.

And yes, Northampton is growing rapidly, but so are many other places nearby.

EDIT

I have now found the data error.

The population of Northampton in the 2011 census was 212k not 189k. If the 250k figure for 2021 is correct then that gives an increase of just below 18%, very similar to all of Cambridge, Peterborough and Bedford.

 

[sonic2009]

I'm sure that most of the Northampton residents either consider Northampton or Wellingborough depending on where they live?

Although the service at Wellingborough is exactly the same as Northampton.

 

[Eloise]

Daily commuter to / from the loop and have been for years. Was three trains per hour for a while until the last major change. Now a standard 2 trains per hour all day. Very consistent times and generally all eight-car all day. Weekdays trains are nowhere near full and standing, I can honestly say maybe once every six weeks do I have to stand north of Milton Keynes and I travel in the peaks. Standing is usually following disruption. There are some peak additionals and 12-car peak workings. Connections for Long Buckby and Northampton are okay-ish at Rugby. Just wish Rugby had more places to get a cuppa and some choc. Long Buckby serves as the gateway to Long Buckby village but also the villages nearby such as Weedon, Watford, West Haddon and the larger Daventry town. Long Buckby to Milton Keynes (and London) can be quicker via Rugby if you fancy a change.

The only downside is travelling across Northampton as all trains have a lengthy dwell though having looked this has always been the case to some extent in Silverlink and NSE days, no doubt will be proven wrong. The downside for Long Buckby is you can't get into London before 11:48 on a Sunday morning. There was a thread at how poor services in former NSE area was into London on a Sunday but this is worse than those mentioned I think.

As a regular commuter and user across all days of the week at various times of the day I would say the service is generally good and reliable. As hinted at above Northampton does get very early and very late service to / from London including Saturday night / early Sunday morning and that is useful.

Believe it it not the railway does have excellent information on origin / destination pairings and demand so if more was needed then it would be provided. Over-provision is wasteful, stating the obvious that, sorry!

 

[CHobbs]

Daily commuter to / from the loop and have been for years. Was three trains per hour for a while until the last major change. Now a standard 2 trains per hour all day. Very consistent times and generally all eight-car all day. Weekdays trains are nowhere near full and standing, I can honestly say maybe once every six weeks do I have to stand north of Milton Keynes and I travel in the peaks. Standing is usually following disruption. There are some peak additionals and 12-car peak workings. Connections for Long Buckby and Northampton are okay-ish at Rugby. Just wish Rugby had more places to get a cuppa and some choc. Long Buckby serves as the gateway to Long Buckby village but also the villages nearby such as Weedon, Watford, West Haddon and the larger Daventry town. Long Buckby to Milton Keynes (and London) can be quicker via Rugby if you fancy a change.

The only downside is travelling across Northampton as all trains have a lengthy dwell though having looked this has always been the case to some extent in Silverlink and NSE days, no doubt will be proven wrong. The downside for Long Buckby is you can't get into London before 11:48 on a Sunday morning. There was a thread at how poor services in former NSE area was into London on a Sunday but this is worse than those mentioned I think.

As a regular commuter and user across all days of the week at various times of the day I would say the service is generally good and reliable. As hinted at above Northampton does get very early and very late service to / from London including Saturday night / early Sunday morning and that is useful.

Believe it it not the railway does have excellent information on origin / destination pairings and demand so if more was needed then it would be provided. Over-provision is wasteful, stating the obvious that, sorry!

Yes, I was born in Northampton and grew up there and regularly used all services! I’m well aware of the history. I was merely pointing out that the current service is sub standard. Obviously, I’m in the minority!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

I'm sure that most of the Northampton residents either consider Northampton or Wellingborough depending on where they live?

Although the service at Wellingborough is exactly the same as Northampton.

Yes, it used to be much better at one time, well better quality, maybe not quantity

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Not all Northampton trains stop at Long Buckby or Wolverton.

I haven’t got time to check at the moment but Glasgow to Northampton has always been a bit of an awkward journey, and always will be.

Options off the top of my head:

Change at Crewe and Rugby
Change at Coventry (service from GLC to EUS via the West Midlands)
Change at MKC (will probably need a change at Warrington as there aren’t many direct GLC-MKC trains)

I do the journey regularly, so don’t need advice on travel, thanks. It’s actually quicker to drive. I’m from Northampton originally but haven’t lived there for over 20 years. I always get the 16:40 or 17:30 from Glasgow with the MKC connection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

Depends on the time of day, you can change at Rugby off some of the Scottish West Mids ones.

I’d avoid the via west mids services,in my experience, not many actually do the full journey on that route , unless the tickets are cheaper

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2024 ==

As a former resident of Wolverton for 5 years who had reasons to travel regularly to MK Central (work) and Northampton (Rugby/Friends), Half-Hourly is not unreasonable for the demand available. In the peaks there is a fast service from Northampton to Euston which doesn't call Wolverton, recognising that the overwhelming majority of demand at Northampton is for commuting into MK or London. Most trains were formed of 8 cars, although 4s could appear off-peak and 12 on-peak.

Northampton also has, largely by virtue of being the depot location, fairly early starts and late finishes to it's services. Last trains out of Euston are past 1am, last trains from Northampton to MK (which was very relevant to me at one point) around 2330.

I also lived in Wolverton! - great way to avoid paying for your fare back in the day. We used to call it the ‘Wolverton gap!’ Virgin never checked tickets from MKC to Euston south of MK so everyone used to do it. Obviously no ticket was purchased from Wolverton to MK! Those were the days

 

[Eloise]

And you wonder why services are substandard with fare dodging going on.

Call me cynical but I think this is one of those threads that has no answer other than 100% agreeing with the OP. Time to shut this one down mods?

 

[CHobbs]

And you wonder why services are substandard with fare dodging going on.

Call me cynical but I think this is one of those threads that has no answer other than 100% agreeing with the OP. Time to shut this one down mods?

In English?? - it was merely an innocent statement that Northampton has a pretty sub standard rail service for the size of the place! - plus its services are the secondary route between London and Birmingham, which is, by definition, a poor quality service.

 

[Magdalia]

You’re not normal, are you?!

In my working career it was normal to check implausible statistics. It was a professional responsibility.

 

[geoffk]

Bournemouth is another sizeable town with only one line running through it (and if you add Poole and Christchurch it's much bigger than Northampton). Both suffer from a lack of connections, east/westwards in the case of Northampton, northwards in the case of "BCP". Plymouth as well if you discount the Gunnislake branch. The lack of links from Northampton is probably the most significant of the three as it's in the middle of the country.

 

[CHobbs]

Bournemouth is another sizeable town with only one line running through it (and if you add Poole and Christchurch it's much bigger than Northampton). Both suffer from a lack of connections, east/westwards in the case of Northampton, northwards in the case of "BCP". Plymouth as well if you discount the Gunnislake branch. The lack of links from Northampton is probably the most significant of the three as it's in the middle of the country.

Completely agree with you! -

 

[zwk500]

Bournemouth is another sizeable town with only one line running through it (and if you add Poole and Christchurch it's much bigger than Northampton). Both suffer from a lack of connections, east/westwards in the case of Northampton, northwards in the case of "BCP". Plymouth as well if you discount the Gunnislake branch. The lack of links from Northampton is probably the most significant of the three as it's in the middle of the country.

Bournemouth has a regular (hourly?) Service to Manchester calling at Reading, Oxford and Birmingham New Street, fast trains to London and slower trains to Southampton and Weymouth.
Which connectivity gaps do you think need filling?

Northampton's link to Birmingham should arguably be quicker but then you run into capacity problems with Coventry to Birmingham. The London service is pretty good even if it doesn't have a one-stop Euston all day. Even to the Trent valley, you can go down to MK and double back or up to Rugby for the change. Yes the interchanges could be better especially as few Avanti stop at Rugby so it's the Euston-Crewe most of the time (Although the cheaper prices make that more attractive than avanti to a lot of people anyway). The only real gap in Northampton's rail service is towards Kettering but that requires a line to be reopened so is a wider problem rathe than just crap service provision.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Although the service at Wellingborough is exactly the same as Northampton.

No, it's not. Not at all the same.

Yes, you might argue that for London - except Wellingboro' is a high-fare trip - but the 'the other end' of the modern Wellingboro' service consists of Kettering and Corby - not Rugby/Coventry/Birmingham.

The latter group are far more useful to Northampton than the former to Wellingboro'.

I'm sure no current resident of eastern Northampton seeking to go to Leicester/Derby/Notts/Sheffield would drive to Wellingboro to start off using today's so-called 'Connect' service - they would drive to Kettering (or drive all the way).

Except for London, Wellingboro' arguably has a worse service northwards today than it did in 1966, when it was hourly to Leicester with cross-platform change for desitination north thereof.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not all Northampton trains stop at Long Buckby or Wolverton.

I haven’t got time to check at the moment but Glasgow to Northampton has always been a bit of an awkward journey, and always will be.

Options off the top of my head:

Change at Crewe and Rugby
Change at Coventry (service from GLC to EUS via the West Midlands)
Change at MKC (will probably need a change at Warrington as there aren’t many direct GLC-MKC trains)

Every weekday LNw train that calls at Northampton also calls at Long Buckby and Wolverton if it passes them. Down trains arriving at Northampton after 23.30 terminate there, so you are correct that these call at Northampton but don't call at Long Buckby, but they don't pass through non stop, either, which I think was the original point. There's very often a Sunday RRB but this also calls at each as appropriate. There is also a very late evening Avanti Up Glasgow that calls at Northampton set down only - without stopping at Wolverton or Long Buckby - but because of night engineering work it often goes Old Line with a RRB.

The journey routing from Northampton to the North and Scotland until recently was via Milton Keynes, and tickets were therefore valid via that double-back. Not much of a concession because they were the same as the fare from Milton Keynes. When the recent changes introduced stops at Rugby in the Manchester and Scotland via West Midlands service enabled travel more directly, funnily enough the fare remained the same.

///

"And there never will" (be a reasonable service)

Similarly process of thought - why ever build a bridge over a river? - very few people swim across.

And you wonder why services are substandard with fare dodging going on.

Call me cynical but I think this is one of those threads that has no answer other than 100% agreeing with the OP. Time to shut this one down mods?

Northampton has well staffed barriers. LNw d have Revenue Protection Officers in pairs, I see them quite often.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Believe it it not the railway does have excellent information on origin / destination pairings and demand so if more was needed then it would be provided. Over-provision is wasteful, stating the obvious that, sorry!

Does 'demand' represent people who use rail currently, or would do if there was a better service? It should of course be the latter, but the methodology would be interesting to know. I've been asked to fill in a travel questionnaire about my travel patterns by rail when travelling by train, but have never heard of anyone being given a questionnaire at a motorway services area by an organisation representing rail to find out possible unfulfilled demand.

If indeed it's the former, see my comment above about river bridges.

 

[sh24]

I travelled Euston-Northampton most days for most of 2019. I thought the service was pretty solid apart from the occasional infrastructure failure. Long trains, acceptable frequency, and a decent enough station at Northampton too.