Can a train company ban me for complaining too much?

[JonathanH]

How full does a train need to be before 'an Operator is 'continually paying out' compensation due to overcrowded trains'?

The original poster is from Leeds. It has to be remembered that stock like 195s or 331s are designed to allow a large number of people to have to stand because they have 2+2 seating, wide aisles and stand back areas around the doors, in contrast to earlier types of rolling stock with more seats in a 3+2 layout but not such good conditions for standing passengers.

 

[Hadders]

I think you need to be very careful.

When you purchase a ticket to travel by train the ticket is to transport you from your origin to your destination. You are not entitled to a seat, although often one will be available.

If a train is too busy to board then that constitutes a delay to your journey and you should be able to claim Delay Repay, as long as the eventual delay to your arrival meets the minimum delay for a claim.

What you appear to be doing, if I am reading this correctly, is boarding a busy train but then claiming a refund. While not exactly the same, we've seen cases where people have claimed a refund but ticket scanning data indicates they did travel. The train company then investigates the person claiming teh refunds. We've also seen instances of investigations into high levels of delay repay claims and these being compared to ticket scanning history.

There is also the possibility of the railway targeting specific individuals and setting up an operation to catch people obtaining fraudulent refunds red handed. While it doesn't happen often it does happen.

 

[Egg Centric]

Or as I emailed to a deodorant manufacturer's company lawyers. "Do you not think the better advice to your client would have been to pay the £2.49 to settle the complaint rather than open a case, prepare a stroppy inaccurate letter, and send it by DHL?". A cheque for £2.49 arrived by DHL "in full and final settlement" the following day.

Tell us the full story, this sounds amusing!

 

[Ekl]

I think you need to be very careful.

When you purchase a ticket to travel by train the ticket is to transport you from your origin to your destination. You are not entitled to a seat, although often one will be available.

If a train is too busy to board then that constitutes a delay to your journey and you should be able to claim Delay Repay, as long as the eventual delay to your arrival meets the minimum delay for a claim.

What you appear to be doing, if I am reading this correctly, is boarding a busy train but then claiming a refund. While not exactly the same, we've seen cases where people have claimed a refund but ticket scanning data indicates they did travel. The train company then investigates the person claiming teh refunds. We've also seen instances of investigations into high levels of delay repay claims and these being compared to ticket scanning history.

There is also the possibility of the railway targeting specific individuals and setting up an operation to catch people obtaining fraudulent refunds red handed. While it doesn't happen often it does happen.

If the train company are aware the train is busy and I boarded, and they give me a refund... What would they investigate? As they're aware I travelled?

 

[Wolfie]

Depending on which train company it is, their delay repay scheme may allow you to make a claim for a delay due to being unable to board if the train is too full

Often the automated system can reject such claims based on the fact the service was not delayed and it requires an appeal so a person will look at it and see its because the train was too full to board. This might be a more effective way of complaining. I try to remember to take a photo of the train being too full but this is not essential.

Have a look at the details of the delay repay scheme for the train company you travel with. Also have a look at their online form to see if there is a too full to board option.

Other strategies: will another part of the train be quieter. Walk along the platform before the train arrives. Can you travel slightly earlier or later. Is there another station nearby which would increase your chances of getting a seat.

Not having a seat on the train is not in itself a reason for getting a refund. Although if you have a reservation and it's not honoured and you have to stand you may be entitled to compensation. Does this train company offer seat reservations?

One thing, based on what l have seen elsewhere on the forum, to be cautious of is a retrospective assertion by the TOC of fraudulent claims.

The OP should clearly document all claims and importantly retain the evidence for at least six years

 

[gray1404]

@Ekl Are you willing to provide any further details about the journey concerned? Then we can advise of the best way forward.

 

[dosxuk]

I regularly board busy services, I normally complain and ask for a refund which I normally get. If I'm refused I ask for a deadlock letter so I can take it for the rail ombudsmen.

My basis of the complaint is that I struggled to board the service and I was packed onto the train and more carriages should be put on. I'm complaining pretty much everyday.

My concern is this is going to be flagged and I'll get banned for using this train company. I always buy a ticket and I only complain when there is an issue which happens to be pretty much everyday.

You're very unlikely to be banned from using the services operated by that company. You would need to do a lot more than complain about how busy the trains are to cause that.

However, I would expect your refunds to come to a screaming halt at some point. I suspect they're currently being offered as a "goodwill gesture" rather than a formal refund. You have no entitlement to a refund for a busy train. The more times you complain about this, the more likely it is that you have received a number of "goodwill gestures" will become apparent to the operator - and as soon as a pattern is identified you'll likely find a senior person writing to you informing you of that lack of entitlement and that they will no longer be sending them to you.

I'm not sure where you have got the idea that you are entitled to a refund, and if the ombudsman has helped you in getting one then it only demonstrates how useless they are. The TOC is firmly in the right to refuse you a refund and the ombudsman should recognise this.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I'm not sure where you have got the idea that you are entitled to a refund, and if the ombudsman has helped you in getting one then it only demonstrates how useless they are. The TOC is firmly in the right to refuse you a refund and the ombudsman should recognise this

I wonder if the ombudsman is actually saying "I have some sympathy for your situation" rather than "the TOC should reimburse you" and the TOC are applying a gesture of goodwill to keep everyone sweet.

The OP might like to share more about the correspondence....

 

[redreni]

One thing, based on what l have seen elsewhere on the forum, to be cautious of is a retrospective assertion by the TOC of fraudulent claims.

The OP should clearly document all claims and importantly retain the evidence for at least six years

I don't doubt that this is sound advice, although Horace Rumpole will be turning in his grave. If a TOC wants to allege the criminal offence of fraud, it is only the TOC that ought to need evidence.

 

[Hadders]

If the train company are aware the train is busy and I boarded, and they give me a refund... What would they investigate? As they're aware I travelled?

They would investigate why you’ve travelled and claimed a refund.

You’re not entitled to a refund just because a train is busy.

 

[Watershed]

They would investigate why you’ve travelled and claimed a refund.

You’re not entitled to a refund just because a train is busy.

I think the OP is saying they complain about the overcrowding and are usually offered compensation equivalent to the fare (which could colloquially be referred to as a "refund", similarly to 100% Delay Repay). However I agree it is essential to be completely accurate and truthful with the train company when making any such claim. The last thing you want is an accusation of fraud.

 

[skyhigh]

They would investigate why you’ve travelled and claimed a refund.

You’re not entitled to a refund just because a train is busy.

To be honest I'm surprised any TOC would routinely issue refunds simply because of busy trains. I'm even more surprised that the Ombudsman agrees that a refund is due when the TOC declines it.

If the OP is happy that everything they have done is above board, it would be interesting to know the TOC and route, as well as seeing a sample of the communication. If nothing else, it would be useful to others.

 

[Haywain]

To be honest I'm surprised any TOC would routinely issue refunds simply because of busy trains.

Me too. I can't help feeling that a point will come when they will say that "it can't be that bad if you choose to keep using that train", though.

 

[SuspectUsual]

To be honest I'm surprised any TOC would routinely issue refunds simply because of busy trains.

I'd be amazed

I'm even more surprised that the Ombudsman agrees that a refund is due when the TOC declines it.

I'd be absolutely astonished

 

[John R]

I'd be amazed




I'd be absolutely astonished

If the complaints are expressed with such hyperbole as “people physically can’t breath” and other such exaggerations (as I don’t recall a mass fatality event recently) then that might be why they are being accepted.

 

[yorkie]

@Eki if you can provide more information about your journey, please report this post and we can reopen the thread for you.