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Delay Repay When Part Cancelled

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Nick Ashwell

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So my train today has been cancelled between Carmarthen and Swansea, I have met it in Swansea and will therefore actually be on time.

What are my rights with delay repay when I have done this? GWR terminated the inbound at Swansea and it'll leave Swansea as expected but given the cancelled leg am I still entitled to claim as I got a lift to Swansea from my partner?
 
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Benjwri

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So my train today has been cancelled between Carmarthen and Swansea, I have met it in Swansea and will therefore actually be on time.

What are my rights with delay repay when I have done this? GWR terminated the inbound at Swansea and it'll leave Swansea as expected but given the cancelled leg am I still entitled to claim as I got a lift to Swansea from my partner?
You are not entitled to delay repay. Delay repay is based on the delay you experienced vs your intended itinerary, which in this case is zero. You can contact the retailer and ask for a disruption part refund on the bit of your ticket you didn’t use, this may not be much money though.
 

Nick Ashwell

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You are not entitled to delay repay. Delay repay is based on the delay you experienced vs your intended itinerary, which in this case is zero. You can contact the retailer and ask for a disruption part refund on the bit of your ticket you didn’t use, this may not be much money though.
What's the reasoning on that though?

The delay to the intended itinerary would have been around four hours had I stayed to relying on a service they didn't provide.

Is there not a case that the cost was been more than the ticket and therefore reasonable costs should be refunded?
 

AlterEgo

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What's the reasoning on that though?

The delay to the intended itinerary would have been around four hours had I stayed to relying on a service they didn't provide.

Is there not a case that the cost was been more than the ticket and therefore reasonable costs should be refunded?
Delay repay works only on the delay to your journey. It’s a binary scheme which doesn’t account for grey areas. If you want to claim in these circumstances you need to write to the train company and ask them to consider your circumstances.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Delay repay works only on the delay to your journey. It’s a binary scheme which doesn’t account for grey areas. If you want to claim in these circumstances you need to write to the train company and ask them to consider your circumstances.
Then the system needs reforming frankly.

I'll just send the bank a photo of my ticket and the screenshot of RTT showing it didn't run in that case, much easier than dealing with someone at the ToC
 

Benjwri

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Then the system needs reforming frankly.

I'll just send the bank a photo of my ticket and the screenshot of RTT showing it didn't run in that case, much easier than dealing with someone at the ToC
To make it absolutely clear your bank is unlikely to accept this, and a chargeback on the railway when they provided the service purchased is probably a very poor idea.

Both I and @AlterEgo have advised you to talk to the TOC about compensation or the retailer about a partial refund on the bit of you ticket you didn't use. You shouldn't be chargebacking until you've at least tried to engage.
 

Watershed

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What's the reasoning on that though?
Delay Repay is based on actual delays incurred, not hypothetical alternatives. Arguably it should also account for having to leave earlier due to disruption - but as it stands, it doesn't.

You would have to raise a claim under the Consumer Rights Act (or similar) though customer services. You may alternatively want to claim a partial refund on your ticket commensurate with the part of the journey you made by road - although claiming such a refund is not something that industry guidelines and procedures readily cater to - and it is not always obvious how any such refund would be calculated.

The delay to the intended itinerary would have been around four hours had I stayed to relying on a service they didn't provide.
Unfortunately the rail industry has no interest in thanking you for avoiding a large compensation bill. Indeed on several occasions I've been refused travel on earlier services during disruption, even though this would have avoided Delay Repay liability for the train operator!

On the whole, the rail industry is far too myopic - obsessing about the letter of restrictions and conditions rather than looking at the bigger picture in terms of reputational damage and financial losses caused by enforcing terms in a "jobsworth" manner.

But sadly that doesn't change the legal position, which is that Delay Repay isn't due if you leave early (or "under your own steam") to arrive on time.

Is there not a case that the cost was been more than the ticket and therefore reasonable costs should be refunded?
I think the rail industry's view would be that you could have avoided those costs by waiting for the next suitable train, and since it was not a matter of otherwise being stranded, the costs were thus incurred "unnecessarily". Of course that ignores the fact that people book particular trains to be at their destination by a certain time, and arriving hours late isn't a feasible option.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Both I and @AlterEgo have advised you to talk to the TOC about compensation or the retailer about a partial refund on the bit of you ticket you didn't use. You shouldn't be chargebacking until you've at least tried to engage.
If it's not covered I'm not gonna waste my time communicating, given my time claiming definitely won't be covered. Monzo on the other hand have a track record of protecting their customers so it's easier to get them to try and deal with it first.

It's a sad state of affairs when a public service is less consumer focused than a bank

Delay Repay is based on actual delays incurred, not hypothetical alternatives. Arguably it should also account for having to leave earlier due to disruption - but as it stands, it doesn't.

On the whole, the rail industry is far too myopic - obsessing about the letter of restrictions and conditions rather than looking at the bigger picture in terms of reputational damage and financial losses caused by enforcing terms in a "jobsworth" manner.

But sadly that doesn't change the legal position, which is that Delay Repay isn't due if you leave early (or "under your own steam") to arrive on time.

I think the rail industry's view would be that you could have avoided those costs by waiting for the next suitable train, and since it was not a matter of otherwise being stranded, the costs were thus incurred "unnecessarily". Of course that ignores the fact that people book particular trains to be at their destination by a certain time, and arriving hours late isn't a feasible option.
Surely own steam means no travel was taken? My ticket has not been scanned and therefore surely under contact law, admittedly ignoring the railways being exempt from things such as Distance Selling Regulations it's still valid?

Personally, having spoken to real "jobsworths", anyone forced to follow silly company procedures doesn't fall into that category
 

Benjwri

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If it's not covered I'm not gonna waste my time communicating, given my time claiming definitely won't be covered. Monzo on the other hand have a track record of protecting their customers so it's easier to get them to try and deal with it first.

It's a sad state of affairs when a public service is less consumer focused than a bank
I think you're in for a bit of a shock if you think Monzo will even approve such a chargeback, given the service was delivered. Even if provisionally approved I would expect once GWR's legal team are invlolved you will be losing the money again.

Are you wanting to get your entire ticket price back here? As I've mentioned there is an entitlement to a partial refund potentially for the difference between the ticket from Swansea and Carmarthen.

As I understand it you still travelled, and I don't see how you can dispute that a fair for the bit of the journey you completed on the railway is due?
 

Nick Ashwell

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I think you're in for a bit of a shock if you think Monzo will even approve such a chargeback, given the service was delivered. Even if provisionally approved I would expect once GWR's legal team are invlolved you will be losing the money again.

Are you wanting to get your entire ticket price back here? As I've mentioned there is an entitlement to a partial refund potentially for the difference between the ticket from Swansea and Carmarthen.

As I understand it you still travelled, and I don't see how you can dispute that a fair for the bit of the journey you completed on the railway is due?
If partial will be fine, yes I have travelled but claiming they've delivered a service, when not doing so for half the journey to Cardiff (ignoring the fact I'm on a split ticket beyond that and am still covered as per my searching)

Can you please explain to me how the service for a train between Carmarthen and Cardiff was delivered when it only ran half that journey from Swansea? That's the same as claiming the flight from Singapore to Sydney was delivered even though the leg from LHR was cancelled
 

skyhigh

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If it's not covered I'm not gonna waste my time communicating,
In which case you'll waste your time with Monzo instead. They will want evidence that you have communicated with the service provider and tried to resolve the issue.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Even if you manage to persuade Monzo to issue a chargeback, a TOC can (and will) still challenge it. They are also entitled to take other action, up to and including prosecution for any chargeback that is fraudulent or misrepresented, or where there is still a liability to pay something.

Most "customers" that make dubious or vexatious charge backs find themselves banned by that TOC, or retailer. Yes you can get round that, but if it's a Trainline backend or other major supplier, you soon find yourself unable to purchase tickets from quite a large number of places.

What you propose to do is likely fraudulent - you cannot unilaterally decide that you are voiding the contract of carriage in this way, especially when you have partly utilised it. A normal, honest and right minded person would follow the advice of contacting the operator politely and explaining the circumstances, and potentially get a gesture of goodwill.
 

AlterEgo

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It’s really simple. All you need to do is write to the train company and ask them to consider compensating you, and even your friend for the cost of the lift. A chargeback has the potential to not go well and may result in further purchases being refused from the retailer; this has happened and gets reported about on this forum. This isn’t really what a chargeback is for.
 

Nick Ashwell

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What you propose to do is likely fraudulent - you cannot unilaterally decide that you are voiding the contract of carriage in this way, especially when you have partly utilised it. A normal, honest and right minded person would follow the advice of contacting the operator politely and explaining the circumstances, and potentially get a gesture of goodwill.
Charge backs are for a service not delivered, as this case.

Of you're going to use a word like fraudulent please explain how you come to such an accusation.

I spoke to staff who told me the same as the former posters unfortunately, I've been told I'm not covered, I'm going about my day getting a refund. That's much cheaper than me submitting a fuel claim for a Discovery to the ToC, or waiting for the train, missing my early work start and considering a loss of earnings in small claims.

Update: the bank has already approved the refund, problem solved
 
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Tazi Hupefi

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Charge backs are for a service not delivered, as this case.

Of you're going to use a word like fraudulent please explain how you come to such an accusation.

I spoke to staff who told me the same as the former posters unfortunately, I've been told I'm not covered, I'm going about my day getting a refund. That's much cheaper than me submitting a fuel claim for a Discovery to the ToC, or waiting for the train, missing my early work start and considering a loss of earnings in small claims
No - you entered into a legally binding contract with the retailer or TOC. That contract envisages that things occasionally go wrong, and you are bound by the clauses that say what remedy is available to you in these circumstances. That does not involve a chargeback. It involves making a claim under industry arrangements or writing to exercise your consumer rights to the train operator.

That contract is what you purchased. A ticket is merely evidence of that contract.

If you don't like the terms of the contract, including your rights or, supposed lack of them, when things go wrong, then don't enter into the contract. You can't expect a bank to bail you out of your own decision.
 

Nick Ashwell

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No - you entered into a legally binding contract with the retailer or TOC. That contract envisages that things occasionally go wrong, and you are bound by the clauses that say what remedy is available to you in these circumstances. That does not involve a chargeback. It involves making a claim under industry arrangements or writing to exercise your consumer rights to the train operator.

That contract is what you purchased. A ticket is merely evidence of that contract.

If you don't like the terms of the contract, including your rights or, supposed lack of them, when things go wrong, then don't enter into the contract. You can't expect a bank to bail you out of your own decision.
"Don't enter into the contract" I have no other choice, I'm not allowed to drive, there's no buses, how do you propose I do that? If anything that becomes a monopoly issue with extra weight added under the equalities act
 

Tazi Hupefi

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"Don't enter into the contract" I have no other choice, I'm not allowed to drive, there's no buses, how do you propose I do that? If anything that becomes a monopoly issue with extra weight added under the equalities act
You're being ridiculous now. Nobody forced you to do anything. Your personal circumstances are irrelevant.

Advice is to write to the TOC explaining your circumstances and asking for a goodwill gesture.

Anything beyond that and you're asking for trouble.
 

Nick Ashwell

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You're being ridiculous now. Nobody forced you to do anything. Your personal circumstances are irrelevant.

Advice is to write to the TOC explaining your circumstances and asking for a goodwill gesture.

Anything beyond that and you're asking for trouble.
You claimed things occasionally go wrong, I didn't claim last week for the same train, that's not occasional. I rarely try and claim but don't like being messed around, which I'm sure is the same as most people.

Personal circumstances are entirely relevant, otherwise they wouldn't be legislated for!
 

Horizon22

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Personal circumstances are entirely relevant, otherwise they wouldn't be legislated for!

I don't understand this point - are you saying GWR are discriminating against you? Everyone who wanted to travel between Carmathen and Swansea on that service would be equally impacted.
 

Nick Ashwell

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I don't understand this point - are you saying GWR are discriminating against you? Everyone who wanted to travel between Carmathen and Swansea on that service would be equally impacted.
No that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that claiming I had a choice is, rather different as I had no other legal option than to agree ito those terms
 

Tazi Hupefi

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No that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that claiming I had a choice is, rather different as I had no other legal option than to agree ito those terms
So you still agreed to those terms. Nobody forced you to. You probably proactively even ticked a box agreeing to those specific conditions

The choice is to buy the contract and travel subject to the terms of that contract, or not to buy the contract and don't travel.
 

Horizon22

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No that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that claiming I had a choice is, rather different as I had no other legal option than to agree ito those terms

As is the way with contracts with many companies; you accept the terms of the contract, or you don't agree to the contract entirely (i.e don't make the purchase). You can't pick and choose.
 

30907

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So: you have claimed a chargeback for your ticket from Carmarthen to Cardiff, despite the fact that you travelled for half the journey.

Had you claimed a refund from GWR that would have potentially been fraudulent, so it is fortunate that you didn't (and GW's reaction to your bank would be interesting).

Meanwhile, had you caught the train from Carmarthen 10min later, which GWR should have arranged for you, you would have been delayed by >15min and have a claim against GWR.
 

Benjwri

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If partial will be fine, yes I have travelled but claiming they've delivered a service, when not doing so for half the journey to Cardiff (ignoring the fact I'm on a split ticket beyond that and am still covered as per my searching)
Then as I have suggested contact the ticket retailer and ask for a partial refund setting out the circumstances as to why you didn't use that portion of the ticket. This will usually be granted. Therefore the money for that service that was undelivered will be returned.

I have sympathy for your situation, but you are going about it the wrong way. You're right you entered into a contract for a service, and GWR does have to get you to your destination, but you are not engaging with the process at all. If you had gone to the station GWR would have accommodated you, either by use of the next train, and delay repay gained, or a taxi fi the last train etc. It was your choice to drive, and therefore forfeit delay repay. As mentioned above you can get a refund for the portion unused due to the cancellation, therefore 'making things right' as to the portion you couldn't use. As mentioned by others by contacting them you may get some form of goodwill.

I fail to see what you are expecting here. GWR cannot read your mind. As far as I can see you have not contacted them at all, you haven't asked for a refund from them or the retailer, you haven't asked for a goodwill payment. You didn't turn up to the station, and therefore find out what alternatives were on offer. Instead you just seem to have chosen the nuclear option to try and (possibly fraudulently) chargeback.

By all means come back and complain if you try the solutions we have suggested and get nothing, but actually give the railway a chance to make it right. As far as I can see the railway has (for once) done nothing wrong, because you simply haven't even made them aware of the situation.
 

Geswedey

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There were TFW trains 10 mins behind both GWR trains that were cancelled from Carmarthen today the first one arrives at Swansea in time to catch the GWR train stating at Swansea, the 2nd one meant a fifty minute wait at Swansea so no 4 hour delay either.
 

yorkie

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Charge backs are for a service not delivered, as this case.

Of you're going to use a word like fraudulent please explain how you come to such an accusation.

I spoke to staff who told me the same as the former posters unfortunately, I've been told I'm not covered, I'm going about my day getting a refund. That's much cheaper than me submitting a fuel claim for a Discovery to the ToC, or waiting for the train, missing my early work start and considering a loss of earnings in small claims.

Update: the bank has already approved the refund, problem solved
Please note that if you made some use of the ticket, then a chargeback would not be appropriate.

This forum has plenty of experts who can advise you; my suggestion would be to heed that advice. It is rare that poor advice is posted in this section; where it occurs I would ask people to report it to us, so that we can take action.

While we can't compel you to take our advice, please be aware that not following the advice could lead to unwanted consequences.

Forgive me if you mentioned it already, but I couldn't immediately spot if you said who the retailer was?

It's not fair on a retailer to make a chargeback where the retailer has done nothing wrong; I would hope therefore you didn't use our ticketing site!

I would also ask that if you would consider making chargebacks in future that you don't use us, either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

...What you propose to do is likely fraudulent ..
While I largely agree with your position that a chargeback is not appropriate, I'm not convinced you can go quite that far with this?

However without knowing exactly what the bank was told, it's difficult to comment on whether it could realistically be considered fraudulent.
 

Benjwri

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Update: the bank has already approved the refund, problem solved
Monzo usually almost immediately approves them as a sign of good faith, and then investigates further, including contacting the recipient of the funds.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you get a notice that this money is being taken back in a month or so.

As many other and myself have noted, not only was this not appropriate, you have gone on about not wanting to get bogged down, but a simple message to GWR would’ve been as easy as the chargeback. The fact you’ve gone down this route, especially given the noted TfW departure at a similar time, rather suggests you’re aware that you don’t have to grounds to support a case with a party that actually knows how the railway works.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Please note that if you made some use of the ticket, then a chargeback would not be appropriate.

This forum has plenty of experts who can advise you; my suggestion would be to heed that advice. It is rare that poor advice is posted in this section; where it occurs I would ask people to report it to usz so that we can take action.

While we can't compel you to take our advice, please be aware that not following the advice could lead to unwanted consequences.

Forgive me if you mentioned it already, but I couldn't immediately spot if you said who the retailer was?

It's not fair on a retailer to make a chargeback where the retailer has done nothing wrong; I would hope therefore you didn't use our ticketing site!

I would also ask that if you would consider making chargebacks in future that you don't use us, either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


While I largely agree with your position that a chargeback is not appropriate, I'm not convinced you can go quite that far with this?

However without knowing exactly what the bank was told, it's difficult to comment on whether it could realistically be considered fraudulent.
If the payment has been fully reimbursed through a chargeback, and travel undertaken, then you could make a case under Section 11 of the Fraud Act 2006. However, depending on what exactly has been said to Monzo could simply be Section 2 - fraud by false representation. It could also amount to the offence of dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit - again depending on what was said to Monzo.

Ultimately depends on whether the full story has been given to Monzo or whether he has simply complained that service wasn't delivered, omitting the wider, material facts.
 

skyhigh

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Monzo usually almost immediately approves them as a sign of good faith, and then investigates further, including contacting the recipient of the funds.
Exactly. Normal process is they return the funds, investigate and will then rule - if they rule against you they will reclaim the funds.

It's not "problem solved", it's just "problem in progress".

If the claim is actually accepted I would be expecting a letter from GWR's prosecution team seeking the outstanding fare due.
 

Hadders

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There's nithing more to add at this time to what has already been said so we have locked this thread.

@Nick Ashwell if you are contacted by GWR or your bank which requires an update to this thread then please report the thread using the 'Report' button in the bottom left of this post which will alert the Moderating Team to reopen the thread
 
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