Grand Central Abandoning Customers

[harz99]

@800001 a different set I think you'll find, 180114 went to Crofton from Doncaster and another unit did the reverse 107 maybe.

 

[357]

And they have always been awful, from rotting HSTs to rotting 180s to rotting Voyagers,

Have you been on a GC Voyager? What's the issues with them?

I was under the impression the Avanti ones were decent!!

 

[mikeg]

Subject to capacity. What does that mean? Unless the train is crush loaded already? I don't understand the obsession with nobody standing, I'd rather be standing than stranded. Once again the private companies screw us over. They can prosecute each other's passengers, but not carry each other's in cases of disruption. What if a passenger has no money to buy a new ticket? I've been in this situation before I owned a credit card, where I had more than enough to buy an advance in advance, but not enough to buy an anytime single. I'd insist on carriage by TPE/LNER and quote 28.2 to them til I was blue in the face. If they're tired of dealing with GC, surely can't something be done about its open access agreement, with a view to stripping them of it?

Or better yet, why don't the other TOCs claim compensation from GC, rather than leave the passenger in the middle of this.

I see they've been community noted on ex-twitter by the way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you been on a GC Voyager? What's the issues with them?

I was under the impression the Avanti ones were decent!!

To be fair Avanti did return them in good condition, but that wouldn't have made for as dramatic-sounding a sentence

 

[Travelmonkey]

GC have station staff at Kings Cross.

I thought they were First (Lumo/Hull trains)

 

[harz99]

@Bletchleyite yes connectional travel was possible, however the reality was that the only trains running to London were 2 hourly frequency LNER ex Aberdeen which were full from further north anyway, in fact I believe the first available one left intending passengers behind at York with another 2 hours to wait to try again.

 

[skyhigh]

I'm purely guessing here but probably something to do with the 3901 cupboard,

What is a "3901 cupboard"?

 

[357]

I thought they were First (Lumo/Hull trains)

No, they are GC staff with GC uniform and employment. First pay GC a fee for them to manage their Open Access services too.

 

[800001]

@800001 a different set I think you'll find, 180114 went to Crofton from Doncaster and another unit did the reverse 107 maybe.

Still begs the question why it couldn’t of carried the customers to York and then ‘chucked’ them off, rather than at Northallerton.

 

[MrJeeves]

Refunding the ticket will obviously mean it can't be used on LNER services, but if you refund your ticket as a result of GC cancelling the train, have to buy a new LNER ticket, then you still have a cast-iron claim for damages against Grand Central to the difference of the value of your LNER ticket minus what you got refunded from GC.

Not according to the wording of the PRO or NRCoT, which are the most concrete way you could go about a claim!

 

[357]

Still begs the question why it couldn’t of carried the customers to York and then ‘chucked’ them off, rather than at Northallerton.

That would depend on the nature of the fault and what the DOTE and rulebook say for that situation on that type of unit.

 

[Travelmonkey]

What is a "3901 cupboard"?

It's one of the engine cupboards, tbh despite being old this video is still quite interesting on issues the 180s had with their original TOC,

 

[yorkie]

Subject to capacity. What does that mean?

I don't really know what the poster meant by that, but if LNER are prepared to sell tickets, then there clearly is capacity.

(For future reference, when replying to any previous post in any thread, please quote the post in question, to avoid confusion).

The position is as stated above by @Watershed and myself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2024 ==

As a customer I would have boarded the next TPE to York and then the next available service to Kings Cross.

No guard would get any money out of me if they tried.

Agreed, and if I was on such a train and witnessed any attempt to charge passengers, I would be quite vocal in my opposition to any such charges being made, and ensure that passengers were made aware of their rights.

 

[driverd]

TOCs continue to have these arrangements and contracts. The issue is that the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations (PSVAR) and the increased demand for HGV drivers means that there simply aren't the number of coaches available at short notice compared to the position a few years ago. Too many operators have decided it is no longer viable to have capacity for Rail Replacement work, and thus the Rail Replacement providers really struggle to source vehicles when needed.

I appreciate that there may be less coaches and more strain on drivers, but to suggest that no vehicles, whatsoever, nor support staff could be found within 1 hour or so of Northallerton (so that's every bus and coach operator in Darlington, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, York, Leeds, Harrogate etc), simply doesn't wash.

Assuming First Transport Solutions provide the 24/7 service advertised on their website, and the TOCs are still paying for the advertised service, there shouldn't have been an issue sourcing atleast some attempt at onward travel - but as others have pointed out, there was no need at all for this to have been on road transport, as later trains were available.

 

[mikeg]

I don't really know what the poster meant by that, but if LNER are prepared to sell tickets, then there clearly is capacity.

(For future reference, when replying to any previous post in any thread, please quote the post in question, to avoid confusion).

The position is as stated above by @Watershed and myself.

Apologies. I would state that there is often capacity even where LNER are unwilling to sell tickets. As long as people can get on the train, I'd argue there's capacity. But as you say, LNER were prepared to sell tickets so a moot point.
I'm just livid at how big companies can get away with anything. The myth that this country is run for the people...

What is the most practical way forward in such a situation? Is it to pay or not to pay and rely on your rights? If reported for prosecution for travelling with an invalid ticket, does 28.2 make the ticket valid and thus one not guilty, given the total default by GC?

 

[Watershed]

I take your point, clearly many do want bargain basement service at bargain basement prices. Just some expect everyone else to help them out when their choices go wrong.

People expect the railway to uphold its legal obligation to get you to your destination. Doesn't sound like a particularly unreasonable expectation if you ask me, but sadly it's too much to ask from the British railway in 2024, as @robbeech has said.

@Bletchleyite well IF by some miracle GC had an available Manager standing by to teleport to Northallerton, he or she would be wasting their time selling LNER tickets for travel to London after that unpredicted failure.

There were (are) no further London bound trains from Northallerton today, GC or LNER.

Equally, AFAIK there is no GC management at King's Cross, the train crews dealing with whatever needs sorting under instruction from the GC control. That is no different to, for example Ryanair, who have no ground customer facing staff or Managers at Newcastle Airport.

GC have customer-facing staff at Kings Cross. They had a Train Manager from the train at Northallerton. OK, there would still have been other stations at which they didn't have a presence, but nothing was stopping them from putting out a clear message that they would reimburse expenses incurred. But they chose to mislead their customers instead by claiming they would 'have to' travel earlier and claiming a new ticket would otherwise be required (with no mention of reimbursement).

I'd suggest that's rather revealing of their contempt for their legal obligations, let alone their complete disinterest at providing any sort of customer service.

 

[yorkie]

Apologies. I would state that there is often capacity even where LNER are unwilling to sell tickets. As long as people can get on the train, I'd argue there's capacity. But as you say, LNER were prepared to sell tickets so a moot point.
I'm just livid at how big companies can get away with anything. The myth that this country is run for the people...

What is the most practical way forward in such a situation? Is it to pay or not to pay and rely on your rights? If reported for prosecution for travelling with an invalid ticket, does 28.2 make the ticket valid and thus one not guilty, given the total default by GC?

In which situation? Do you mean if you would be stranded because there were no more GC services, and the only services remaining were operated by LNER and LNER refused to carry you under 28.2?

If so, it really depends on the individual; their appetite for an argument, how assertive they are, and various factors. I don't think there is a single answer to this.

Someone who doesn't mind claiming money back later but doesn't want to argue with an LNER Guard should pay under duress and claim the money back, but if it was me, I would be asserting my rights (and those of anyone else in my position) and refusing to pay, but this may not be a stress-free experience and you have to be careful as some staff may attempt to get police to remove you from the train.

 

[43066]

It's one of the engine cupboards, tbh despite being old this video is still quite interesting on issues the 180s had with their original TOC,

A great video, which I have seen before, but good to be reminded of. Interesting that the rot had clearly already set in when they were brand new units!

When they were at my operator (although I never signed them) I remember driving towards a station where one had failed, and being warned that we were going into an unusual platform and were about to pick up a load of extra passengers. The signaller laughed and said they were placing bets in the ROC on where one would sit down next!

 

[IanXC]

I appreciate that there may be less coaches and more strain on drivers, but to suggest that no vehicles, whatsoever, nor support staff could be found within 1 hour or so of Northallerton (so that's every bus and coach operator in Darlington, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, York, Leeds, Harrogate etc), simply doesn't wash.

Assuming First Transport Solutions provide the 24/7 service advertised on their website, and the TOCs are still paying for the advertised service, there shouldn't have been an issue sourcing atleast some attempt at onward travel - but as others have pointed out, there was no need at all for this to have been on road transport, as later trains were available.

You may think it doesn't wash but that is the reality now.

A good number of the places you mention are solidly more than an hour with a coach too.

Remember that a good portion of the potentially available vehicles will have already been contracted for planned rail replacement due to the ECML closure.

 

[Travelmonkey]

A great video, which I have seen before, but good to be reminded of. Interesting that the rot had clearly already set in when they were brand new units!

When they were at my operator (although I never signed them) I remember driving towards a station where one had failed, and being warned that we were going into an unusual platform and were about to pick up a load of extra passengers. The signaller laughed and said they were placing bets in the ROC on where one would sit down next!

You'll be going nowhere echos through many liveries, at least other TOCs (besides Hull trains) had other stock to take their place. GC are in desperate need of new stock,

 

[Starmill]

Yes, and not trying to absolve them, but what are those other arrangements they could make?

They won't have a spare train nearby, and I suspect no STP path they could run a train in.

LNER have presumably said they won't take their customers because of the reduced timetable.

I can't imagine chartering a number of coaches at zero notice is practical.

The alternative arrangement is travel tomorrow, or earlier to meet the replacement train in Doncaster, ie 1653 rather than 1738 from Kings Cross.

Surely the whole industry is better off without a company that drags the rest down by getting themselves into a mess that they then cannot do anything about?

If they've really been utterly flummoxed by this I'd say there should be serious questions over their license because I can't see how they're complying with it.

 

[43066]

You'll be going nowhere echos through many liveries, at least other TOCs (besides Hull trains) had other stock to take their place. GC are in desperate need of new stock,

Yes, it’s fair to say they’ve been absolute dogs wherever they’ve been. A pity, because they’re extremely comfortable units to travel on whenever they’re running, and not on fire!

I’m told by someone who works there that GC don’t ever shut their engines down, for fear of being unable to restart them…

 

[harz99]

You'll be going nowhere echos through many liveries, at least other TOCs (besides Hull trains) had other stock to take their place. GC are in desperate need of new stock,

Never a truer word said! I like the 180s for their seat comfort, but that is no compensation for an unreliable service.

 

[Howardh]

The stranded passenger should, by law, be allowed to catch the next reasonable train towards their destination regardless of companies, and pay not one penny more than their original ticket. The cost can be sorted between the two companies, not that pax being put out by organising, and waiting, for a refund which may not come.

What The TOC has done in response is deplorable, including I understand tweets with false information

If I had a meeting with the Minister of Transport that's exactly what I would ask for.

Put The Passenger First.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Never a truer word said! I like the 180s for their seat comfort, but that is no compensation for an unreliable service.

The 800s may be ironing boards but they'll get you there, I do think the 802s Hull Trains have got have revived their bad rep,

 

[driverd]

You may think it doesn't wash but that is the reality now.

A good number of the places you mention are solidly more than an hour with a coach too.

Remember that a good portion of the potentially available vehicles will have already been contracted for planned rail replacement due to the ECML closure.

I'm going to assume here that you've some professional insight into the bus world? I don't, other than from a rail perspective and dealing with this stuff from both a management and frontline position over the years (currently I'm nothing to do with it so quite prepared to accept things have moved on).

What is struggle with is there certainly is a demand for accessible buses from rail providers and a big one, just as there always has been. To say it's no longer worth the bus operators while, suggests either rail operators aren't using the service in the same way, or the rail operators just don't bother with it at all anymore (it has to be one of these - the requirements for rail operators to provide haven't changed, so the same market exists to the likes of First Travel Solutions)?

This shouldn't be rocket science - the market is there and if it truly is that bus operators just don't have the buses, then that's a contractual issue between the TOC and the bus provider. As I said previously - FTS are still offering "24/7 rapid response" with "over 500 partners nationwide".

 

[357]

GC are in desperate need of new stock,

And it's been confirmed publicly that a new fleet is being ordered for the new TAA.

 

[800001]

And it's been confirmed publicly that a new fleet is being ordered for the new TAA.

What does TAA mean?

 

[Mainline421]

I don't really know what the poster meant by that, but if LNER are prepared to sell tickets, then there clearly is capacity.

Not sure what you mean by that, as there are no limits on number of tickets sold, and LNER don't have the ability to change this on an ad hoc basis. Realistically there is zero chance of even the busiest of GC trains ever taking up every inch of standing room on an Azuma.

 

[Harpo]

Yes, it’s fair to say they’ve been absolute dogs wherever they’ve been. A pity, because they’re extremely comfortable units to travel on whenever they’re running, and not on fire!

180s have been damned hard work but they can be tamed. In a year when they were half of my weekly 1200ish miles (so circa 27000 miles of 180) I never had one fail. They’re older now, but the legacy isn’t all bad. Just difficult.