Public perception of railways

[Western Sunset]

Just like there are "good" NHS hospitals, and "good" state schools, does good/helpful/kindly/professional behaviour by staff at a station create a "good" station for customer experience? Conversely, does bad/unhelpful/unkind/unprofessional behaviour promote a "bad" environment for customers?

I find Westbury staff, as an example, always engaging and professional in their customer care, which I imagine would rub onto any new recruits working there - so an upward spiral created by staff ethos.

I'm sure you can think of other stations where the opposite is true...

 

[Krokodil]

I'm sure you can think of other stations where the opposite is true...

Blackpool North does have a bit of a reputation

 

[yorkie]

The forum ticketing website is great, but it won’t / wouldn’t sell me the Advance tickets I mentioned in reply #38, whereas LNER would.

Is that something to do with the extended booking horizon? If so I believe this is being looked into; if you experience a situation where we are not offering the best deal, please let us know, so that we can investigate why.

 

[Par]

Blackpool North does have a bit of a reputation

Imagine if the first journey you ever took was a return from Blackpool North to Euston and experienced the boarding at those two, I suspect it would definitely be your last!

 

[Rail Ranger]

BR started painting trains in different liveries well before privatisation. The folk memory of rail being a single entity still persists. Aviation was never a single unified entity nor does it provide a walk-up service.

 

[michael8]

I hear this argument a lot. Trains are too expensive, fares are exorbitant etc. This appears to be at odds with booming numbers of leisure, off-peak and weekend travellers who choose to take the train when there are plenty of (apparently cheaper) alternatives. Clearly plenty of people are prepared to pay these 'unaffordable' prices which would seem to indicate they aren't really that expensive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2024 ==



This is pure hyperbole I'm afraid.

It may be hyperbole, but it's his/her perception of the railways, which is exactly what this thread is asking for.

 

[Par]

Is that something to do with the extended booking horizon? If so I believe this is being looked into; if you experience a situation where we are not offering the best deal, please let us know, so that we can investigate why.

Yes, booking right onto the cusp of the horizon, in this case 12th January. I mean I’d like to wait, but the quota might sell out in the meantime. Trainline (yes, yes, I know) will also sell me the ticket 2 x Advance 1st with a Two Together for the 16.00 departure.

 

[Horizon22]

It may be hyperbole, but it's his/her perception of the railways, which is exactly what this thread is asking for.

Sure but if you're coming in on a starting position of "hyperbole" (I'm not saying the whole thread is) for public perception, and this is the forum for "UK Railway Discussion" you don't have a good foundation; it's hard to argue about things that, in some cases, are just untrue. But changing someone's negative perception if they don't use the railways, don't see much of a need or want to, and has formed the bulk of their views already is going to be a tall order!

I think there is a fair chunk of people who don't use the rail network who might want to but don't (for various reasons) or - at the very least - would like it to be successful. As would many who use it regularly and/or work within the industry!

 

[Magdalia]

Aviation was never a single unified entity nor does it provide a walk-up service.

In the 1970s British Airways had very little competition on UK domestic flights.

It operated walk on services, called shuttles, between Heathrow and Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester and Belfast. Anyone turning up at the departure gate up to 10 minutes before departure time was guaranteed a seat.

 

[yorksrob]

BR started painting trains in different liveries well before privatisation. The folk memory of rail being a single entity still persists. Aviation was never a single unified entity nor does it provide a walk-up service.

The railway is not an airline. There are too many people in the industry who like to pretend it is.

 

[Magdalia]

The railway is not an airline. There are too many people in the industry who like to pretend it is.

In the no blame culture this is the fault of the bearded one, and all of those in thrall to him.

In my view it is at the root of what's being discussed here.

Basically I travel on the bits of the railway that are run like a railway, and don't go near the bits that are run like an airline.

 

[michael8]

Sure but if you're coming in on a starting position of "hyperbole" (I'm not saying the whole thread is) for public perception, and this is the forum for "UK Railway Discussion" you don't have a good foundation; it's hard to argue about things that, in some cases, are just untrue. But changing someone's negative perception if they don't use the railways, don't see much of a need or want to, and has formed the bulk of their views already is going to be a tall order!

I think there is a fair chunk of people who don't use the rail network who might want to but don't (for various reasons) or - at the very least - would like it to be successful. As would many who use it regularly and/or work within the industry!

Very true

 

[yorksrob]

Trying to get out of Wakefield on. Sunday morning is Kafkaesque. Trains starting too late and cancelled everywhere.

There seem to be hundreds of trains going everywhere but Leeds.

And when they do turn up, you're guaranteed a crappy 150.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2024 ==

I actually like travelling by train, however even I'm sick and tired of crooked train companies making up the rules to suit themselves and fleece me

LNER are the most crooked bunch of liars of the lot

 

[Bartsimho]

LNER are the most crooked bunch of liars of the lot

Again with the ticket types and LNER.
The fact that they don't want to offer Returns between places where it is very possible to make a day trip by train is infuriating. Like I posted here why wasn't there a Lincoln to Hull return ticket. So 77 miles by rail taking between 2-3 hours per journey very much gives more than enough time at Hull for a Day visit but LNER set the tickets so no Day returns despite them only serving Lincoln southward and them barely serving Hull in the first place (and it being very unlikely to ever use LNER on this journey).

Also finding ticket restrictions is like pulling teeth because you just get directed to a long manual about tickets or just a list of time restrictions. Like how hard is it to display that information in a service where you enter the start location, end location and any clear special restrictions (like avoiding London), The top result is this https://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide which is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard finding out the information you want

 

[Rail Ranger]

brfares.com is fairly helpful: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=LCN&dest=HUL&period=20240928

 

[En]

The first part of what follows is what I’ve heard from others, and the second is an account of recent experiences by my wife and myself.
<snip>

How many people, I wonder, are put off travelling by train because they’ve heard of strikes, delays and cancellations, and decide that the whole thing is too risky to contemplate.

<snip>

ironically of course some of these people are the same people who don;t have hte slightest clue at alternative routes when walking, cycling or driving
I remember a number of occasions of people who had spent decades if not their whole lives in an area not realising that there were several 'back road' routes as alternatives to the main road or the circuituous but safe for LGVs diversion routes ( e.g. if National Highways close the A46 between Newark and Lincoln the signposted diversion is to take the A17 to Sleaford (Holdingham) and then the A15 to Lincoln )

 

[Bartsimho]

brfares.com is fairly helpful: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=LCN&dest=HUL&period=20240928

Again just a single with no open returns offered because LNER set the fares despite it being completely feasible for open returns to be utilised with the travel time and lack of use of LNER. To me Northern should set these fares because they will most likely be the most used operator because of Doncaster-Hull, Lincoln-Retford as well as LNER's poor service to Retford and Hull

 

[Rail Ranger]

I'm not saying I agree with LNER's ridiculous policy of abolishing returns.

 

[yorksrob]

LNER seem to have been given undue influence over routes they have no business interfering with.

 

[Bartsimho]

I'm not saying I agree with LNER's ridiculous policy of abolishing returns.

Yeah I get that. Just that it's a website that is very low down any search so unlikely for people to use and it appears to be straight from the mid 2000's with it's design and UX

 

[The Prisoner]

I’m a big fan of the railways and will always defend them where I can, and when they work they often work well, but when things go wrong there is no perception of a plan to the customer and that’s where it falls apart.

I appreciate that when something happens the first thing the control teams will do is try and recover the service to reduce ongoing impact as quickly as possible, but there seems to be absolutely no consideration for what that plan will do for customers travelling now.

To give an example a few years ago the line was closed between Carlisle and Scotland due to flooding at short notice. I was in Penrith having travelled up with dog, family & elderly relatives to see my folks needing to get back to Cheshire.

Avanti were actually operating to Carlisle (minor miracle - they normally abandon Preston - Carlisle if there is a snowflake at Beattock) but only running a two hourly Carlisle to Birmingham service under a revised timetable - those services picking up what I assume was part of the Edinburgh to London paths. Nothing else ran - Glasgow to London and TPE paths cancelled.

We were booked on an advance ticket on a service which had been cancelled (a direct Glasgow - Euston service).

Penrith and oxenholme are part of a pattern whereby alternate services skip one of those stations typically.

They kept the booked stops as per what the paths on those two hourly services leaving a four hour gap when usually there would be 7-8 Penrith to Preston services over that period. One service to was due to skip Penrith, the other oxenholme.

I tweeted Avanti who were unapologetic and said that services had to keep to their booked stops. When I politely pointed out that there was now a four hour gap as everything else was cancelled they told me i could put in a claim for delay repay.

About an hour later they added a special stop order at Penrith. Didn’t tweet me back and I wasn’t at the station to find out.

How hard would it be to have a system that models the impact of an action on the service alteration on the stations served by trains affected by disruption in real time? Where is the next service, who operates it and is there some simple action that could be taken to mitigate impact? It’s obvious that nobody had taken the time to understand that a simple change could have assisted, but it appears that the solutions on offer are only as good as the team working that day.

And don’t get me started on something that has become a verb - a “do not travel” order….which is understandable in times of extreme events, but unforgivable just because you can’t resource your company properly.

 

[yorksrob]

Again with the ticket types and LNER.
The fact that they don't want to offer Returns between places where it is very possible to make a day trip by train is infuriating. Like I posted here why wasn't there a Lincoln to Hull return ticket. So 77 miles by rail taking between 2-3 hours per journey very much gives more than enough time at Hull for a Day visit but LNER set the tickets so no Day returns despite them only serving Lincoln southward and them barely serving Hull in the first place (and it being very unlikely to ever use LNER on this journey).

Also finding ticket restrictions is like pulling teeth because you just get directed to a long manual about tickets or just a list of time restrictions. Like how hard is it to display that information in a service where you enter the start location, end location and any clear special restrictions (like avoiding London), The top result is this https://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide which is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard finding out the information you want

TPE are also fond of not offering cheap day returns for day-drip journeys.

 

[Horizon22]

Trying to get out of Wakefield on. Sunday morning is Kafkaesque. Trains starting too late and cancelled everywhere.

There seem to be hundreds of trains going everywhere but Leeds.

And when they do turn up, you're guaranteed a crappy 150.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2024 ==

I actually like travelling by train, however even I'm sick and tired of crooked train companies making up the rules to suit themselves and fleece me

LNER are the most crooked bunch of liars of the lot

I just think Sunday - at some TOCs - is just the worst representation of how the railway service actually runs. And until the ‘Sunday in the working week’ issue is resolved, it will be an abysmal service continuously at some places.

 

[Par]

I just think Sunday - at some TOCs - is just the worst representation of how the railway service actually runs. And until the ‘Sunday in the working week’ issue is resolved, it will be an abysmal service continuously at some places.

Exactly. I’m sure it’s bad in many places, but using Northern, west of the Pennines on a Sunday is a truly dispiriting experience.

A case in point, earlier this year, I travelled from Southport to Manchester on a Sunday, theoretically this is an hourly service. The 11.38 ran and then the next train was 20.38, with everything in between cancelled, either the night before or on the day. A nine hour gap, I mean how are you going to tempt would be users onto the Network with that type of provision?

I had an Advance booked for the 19.38, so my delay was “only” an hour.

 

[Falcon1200]

one thing which irritates me as a guard is that I end up having to do Control's thinking for them. When there are alterations to services the first thing they should be doing is thinking "how will this affect the passengers and how can we mitigate this?"

Having been a Controller for most of my railway career, I think that is rather unfair; When a major incident occurs Control have scores of issues, and trains, to manage.

Your train from Crewe to Chester is cancelled, because it makes sense to the railways, because the knock-on effects are less, for whatever reason, but you end up being significantly delayed as a result.

In the situation described, what was the alternative? It seems that the set which operates the service, all day, with minimal turnrounds at each end, was unable to depart on or near time. If it had run, late, all subsequent workings would also have been delayed, affecting more passengers.

Imagine if the first journey you ever took was a return from Blackpool North to Euston and experienced the boarding at those two, I suspect it would definitely be your last!

And yet my recent experiences boarding trains at both Euston and Blackpool North have been perfectly fine!

I do believe that, for those who use the railway, perception depends very much on their most recent journey. For example, my sister travelled in August from Euston to Glasgow and back and was most impressed; She had good-priced tickets, reserved, comfortable seats, and both trains ran and were on time throughout. Had she travelled. as I did, a couple of weeks ago and been delayed 4 (four) hours by a broken rail, she would probably have a different opinion....

I firmly believe that when it works properly there is no better way to travel than by train, however there are clearly far too many times when it falls apart.

 

[Western Lord]

Trying to get out of Wakefield on. Sunday morning is Kafkaesque. Trains starting too late and cancelled everywhere.

There seem to be hundreds of trains going everywhere but Leeds.

And when they do turn up, you're guaranteed a crappy 150.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2024 ==

I actually like travelling by train, however even I'm sick and tired of crooked train companies making up the rules to suit themselves and fleece me

LNER are the most crooked bunch of liars of the lot

LNER is, of course, state run.
Where do you think better management is going to come from going forward?

 

[43066]

The railways appear to be run for the wrong reasons.

Your train from Crewe to Chester is cancelled, because it makes sense to the railways, because the knock-on effects are less, for whatever reason, but you end up being significantly delayed as a result.

There are reasons for this, but they don't help you.

So should the railway not try to recover the service, and minimise delay for the greatest number? I’m afraid this comment, so often trotted out on here, perfectly typifies a failure to see the big picture. It’s also in direct contradiction to other complaints we see about trains not running on time.

You then hear of someone being taken to court for under-paying by £1.90.

Presumably someone who had committed a ticketing offence of some sort? That isn’t likely to affect the vast majority of passengers who manage to travel with valid tickets, and even the vast majority of fare evaders are not prosecuted!

Is there any evidence that revenue enforcement impacts negatively on the public perception of the railway? It could even be that people would like to see better enforcement and *more* prosecutions. That was certainly my view when I paid for a full price season ticket to commute, and I felt like a mug for doing so when I saw people getting away without paying again and again. Indeed the OP calls for more ticket checks, which suggests better enforcement would improve their image of the railway.

So next time you drive and you're not messed around.

Except the railway is heavily used where it’s available, and passenger numbers are rising. So I’m not sure there’s any evidence to support this view?

It may be hyperbole, but it's his/her perception of the railways, which is exactly what this thread is asking for.

I disagree. The thread is asking about the public’s perception, not for list of individual moans. In many cases the views of enthusiasts aren’t at all representative because they have different priorities to regular travellers, many of which are completely contradictory, as can be seen on this very thread!

 

[Jakko542]

Context: not a train buff or an industry person, just a commuter who takes an interest in their surroundings.

When the service runs more or less as planned, it is good and for my 25 mile or so commute in Northern / Trans-Pennine land is usually quicker than driving.

Problems arise when things aren't going to plan. Comms from the train companies to the (generally very good) staff on the ground often appear to be non-existent. Trains sometimes appear to be cancelled, or with Trans-Pennine especially skip stops or be re-routed with virtually no notice.

Now sometimes disruption is inevitable and cannot be helped. I appreciate that, and furthermore that nobody has a magic wand that can summon a train or sort out an intractable problem. As a passenger all I want is as much prior notice as possible so that I can plan my day, go and get a pint / coffee / bite to eat or whatever, and let other people who might be affected (colleagues, the Mrs, whoever) know what is happening. All too often though, this proves to be beyond the train companies.

Like I said, I'm not privy to any sort of insider knowledge and there may be good reasons for why this seems to happen on a semi-regular basis. But the frustration in trying to get home after a day in work and getting conflicting or plain incorrect information is more responsible for making me wish I'd driven than any delay in and of itself. Speaking as an ordinary customer, if the train companies could sort this out then they'd have won a fair proportion of the battle.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Having been a Controller for most of my railway career, I think that is rather unfair; When a major incident occurs Control have scores of issues, and trains, to manage.



In the situation described, what was the alternative? It seems that the set which operates the service, all day, with minimal turnrounds at each end, was unable to depart on or near time. If it had run, late, all subsequent workings would also have been delayed, affecting more passengers.



And yet my recent experiences boarding trains at both Euston and Blackpool North have been perfectly fine!

I do believe that, for those who use the railway, perception depends very much on their most recent journey. For example, my sister travelled in August from Euston to Glasgow and back and was most impressed; She had good-priced tickets, reserved, comfortable seats, and both trains ran and were on time throughout. Had she travelled. as I did, a couple of weeks ago and been delayed 4 (four) hours by a broken rail, she would probably have a different opinion....

I firmly believe that when it works properly there is no better way to travel than by train, however there are clearly far too many times when it falls apart.

I sometimes think control try to do too much in times of disruption to get the service back on time, missing stops or cancelling trains where just maybe it's better to run them late until the end of the day.
Having said that, I'm an outsider looking in and have absolutely no idea the reifications of doing so

 

[Tester]

Context: not a train buff or an industry person, just a commuter who takes an interest in their surroundings.

When the service runs more or less as planned, it is good and for my 25 mile or so commute in Northern / Trans-Pennine land is usually quicker than driving.

Problems arise when things aren't going to plan. Comms from the train companies to the (generally very good) staff on the ground often appear to be non-existent. Trains sometimes appear to be cancelled, or with Trans-Pennine especially skip stops or be re-routed with virtually no notice.

Now sometimes disruption is inevitable and cannot be helped. I appreciate that, and furthermore that nobody has a magic wand that can summon a train or sort out an intractable problem. As a passenger all I want is as much prior notice as possible so that I can plan my day, go and get a pint / coffee / bite to eat or whatever, and let other people who might be affected (colleagues, the Mrs, whoever) know what is happening. All too often though, this proves to be beyond the train companies.

Like I said, I'm not privy to any sort of insider knowledge and there may be good reasons for why this seems to happen on a semi-regular basis. But the frustration in trying to get home after a day in work and getting conflicting or plain incorrect information is more responsible for making me wish I'd driven than any delay in and of itself. Speaking as an ordinary customer, if the train companies could sort this out then they'd have won a fair proportion of the battle.

Welcome to the forum and thank you for the insight.

I really do think this needs screaming from the rooftops. If it needs more resources (I'm not qualified to say) it would be worth it.