Grand Central Abandoning Customers

[En]

The enormous success of Ryanair et al show this is what customers actually want though...

There is also the aspect of the whole " why are (franchise TOC/ GBR) Rail tickets so expensive ?" its because of the flexibility of a standard open and even some of the advance purchase tickets - try getting a 'standard open' ticket for anything flying except perhaps one of those sub 5 minute intra/inter island flights in the Scottish islands ... the OA operators tickets are what is the norm on other modes especially flying ( technically Channel tunnel and channel ferries are meant to be like that but the operators have been rather more pragmatic especially with earlier than booked departures if there is space ... )

 

[AdamWW]

If that argument was right then LNER fares would have plummeted where they abolished off peak flexible fares.

Rail fares are expensive because running trains is expensive.

And in any case open access operators do sell flexible tickets - they're just a bit limited as they don't run many services.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Remember airlines use dynamic pricing depending on how busy the aircraft is, passengers don't generally fly daily/weekly out of their own pocket so not an issue of the price changing. There is no expectation on the railway that a particular train can have different prices depending on the time you book and how busy the train is - in fact it would be weird to. Pay different prices for your commute depending on the day of weeks or even the time of year

 

[jayah]

As long as they pay without quibble then it is the best way.

If TOCs did indeed set up a website that would only show valid options then that would be a good half-way house. Passengers could book and the site could bill the TOC.

As mentioned upthread, there are many companies using such systems for their corporate bookings.

I am not sure why TOCs would set up a website to let you book hotels, flights and coach tickets.

You have far better rights on Ryanair than Eurostar. Eurostar is not bound by EU261, so if it wasn't their fault, it is between you and your insurer.

If you don't wait for the next available Eurostar they won't refund alternative travel, even if the issue is ongoing for days.

Airlines and Eurostar will both try to fob you off with vouchers rather than cash, which in turn removes some of your consumer rights when they are used as payment. And they will also quibble over the cost of meals and hotels, the latter being very expensive indeed at short notice.

 

[noddingdonkey]

There is no expectation on the railway that a particular train can have different prices depending on the time you book and how busy the train is - in fact it would be weird to.

Isn't that exactly how advance tickets work?

 

[Topological]

Remember airlines use dynamic pricing depending on how busy the aircraft is, passengers don't generally fly daily/weekly out of their own pocket so not an issue of the price changing. There is no expectation on the railway that a particular train can have different prices depending on the time you book and how busy the train is - in fact it would be weird to. Pay different prices for your commute depending on the day of weeks or even the time of year

To be fair though, you can often get cheaper prices by changing in Europe (Airlines are very good at offering competitive prices from the main hubs, even after adding an expensive short haul flight from the UK to said hubs you can still save a lot versus direct flights from the UK)

I do like the idea that someone commutes from Manchester to London by flying in and out of Paris or Amsterdam...

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Isn't that exactly how advance tickets work?

I get where you're coming from but an advance fare is fixed (either peak or non peak) and the same every day whatever time you book it, not dynamic like airlines where if you book it a month in advance it's different to a week in advance.

 

[357]

I get where you're coming from but an advance fare is fixed (either peak or non peak) and the same every day whatever time you book it, not dynamic like airlines where if you book it a month in advance it's different to a week in advance.

No it's not?

 

[greyman42]

Sort it out yourself and claim it back. You can book another flight or hotel in seconds on your phone, trying to have the local staff organise it all themselves would take hours.

That's assuming passengers have a smart phone and the knowledge to do so.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I get where you're coming from but an advance fare is fixed (either peak or non peak) and the same every day whatever time you book it, not dynamic like airlines where if you book it a month in advance it's different to a week in advance.

That's complete rubbish.

Railway fares and airline fares are priced in essentially the same way.

A "Y class" airline fares is essentially the Anytime Single. A "J class" fare is essentially the Anytime 1st Single". These are essentially always available, regardless of capacity because airlines will bump people travelling with cheaper/more restrictive fares in order to accommodate people with these, however, very few people ever buy them.

All rail Advance fares, like airline fares are dynamically priced, some are even priced according to a personalisation strategy (i.e. fares specific to your marketing profile). It's called yield management, and TOCs use a mixture of automatic and manual algorithms to work out the best way to achieve the maximum yield per service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All rail Advance fares, like airline fares are dynamically priced, some are even priced according to a personalisation strategy (i.e. fares specific to your marketing profile).

Which TOC/retailer(s) are doing that? I'm not aware that the booking systems are capable of it, aside from targetted promotions with discount codes/links sent only to specific people.

(Some) airlines do though.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Every single one. There is a quota of tickets at each price point. As these are sold the price goes up to the next tier. The prices available are set to reflect demand, so less well loaded services have more cheap tickets available, busier services very many fewer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Every single one. There is a quota of tickets at each price point. As these are sold the price goes up to the next tier. The prices available are set to reflect demand, so less well loaded services have more cheap tickets available, busier services very many fewer.

I don't think you picked up what Tazi was suggesting - that TOCs are targetting Advance price bands at specific individuals' marketing profiles, not that Advances are yield managed which they obviously are.

 

[357]

I don't think you picked up what Tazi was suggesting - that TOCs are targetting Advance price bands at specific individuals' marketing profiles, not that Advances are yield managed which they obviously are.

I'm not sure he's suggesting that clearing cookies in your browser will reveal cheaper fares or anything, but it is true that some apps and TOCs will send emails out with different promotions based on your digital profile.

Eg "Travel to London from £9" Vs "Use any train in a two hour window".

 

[MrJeeves]

I'm not sure he's suggesting that clearing cookies in your browser will reveal cheaper fares or anything,

Honestly, I don't know how this could be interpreted to be anything but exactly that:

some are even priced according to a personalisation strategy (i.e. fares specific to your marketing profile)

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Some TOCs only present certain tiers of Advance or specific products to specific customers or give them access to certain tiers before other users, essentially priority access.

Clearing cookies etc isn't going to change anything.

Obviously there are also targeted offers, e.g. for customers who haven't booked in a while being incentivised to book again.

 

[crablab]

Some TOCs only present certain tiers of Advance or specific products to specific customers or give them access to certain tiers before other users, essentially priority access.

Isn't it true that all ticket retailers are supposed to sell the same set of tickets, which would presumably mean that Advances are available to everyone or no-one? ie. you should be able to buy the same ticket with the same conditions, irrespective of which retailer you choose

I do remember previous discussion about Advances being 'allocated', so perhaps my assertion above is incorrect.

In which case it rather begs the question as to whether TOCs can distort the ticketing market by offering these 'special' fares & deprive the other retailers, who cannot discount Advances or sell tickets that haven't been released yet, of a level playing field. And thus consumers face reduced choice in who they can buy their ticket from, since only the issuing TOC is the one selling that ticket under those conditions.

As I say, my understanding was this wasn't supposed to happen under the TSA.

 

[MrJeeves]

TOCs can have limited time offers exclusive to them under the TSA by my understanding, but regular or permanent offers must be open to third parties (which is one of the issues third parties have with things like Seatfrog!).

 

[thedbdiboy]

TOCs can have limited time offers exclusive to them under the TSA by my understanding, but regular or permanent offers must be open to third parties (which is one of the issues third parties have with things like Seatfrog!).

That's not how the TSA is drafted - the relevant parts pre-date the modern Third Party Retailer (TPR) market. TOCs do not have to generally distribute 'Temporary' fares but when this was written it was meant to apply to other TOCs. At the time of drafting Third Parties (which at that time meant Travel Agents or Business Houses) only had the right to sell what was specified in their license.
Nowadays the expectation is that TPRs have access to and can sell permanent fares but the TSA doesn't actually decree this.

 

[jayah]

If that argument was right then LNER fares would have plummeted where they abolished off peak flexible fares.

Rail fares are expensive because running trains is expensive.

Running trains isn't actually that expensive. The McNulty review found the cost to be around £17/train km in 2009. Most people would regard 25-30p/mile as reasonable and £1/mile as a rip off.

Fares are very cheap, even on routes that cover 10% of the farebox. On routes into London where the trains are carrying 300-600 people, they are £1/mile and then some. Fares are high because the railway charges whatever it can get away and in most cases there is no meaningful competition. Even with fare regulation, firms, often acting as rail monopolies, had great latitude to increase fares beyond the cost of living, where they thought it was worth doing. Where there was no regulation, fares went up by far more.

Nothing at all to do with the cost base.

That's assuming passengers have a smart phone and the knowledge to do so.

The vast, vast majority do and that is how they booked the tickets for the train and flight that was cancelled. But that is the policy of these esteemed carriers. Comparing Grand Central to Ryanair is unfair, because Ryanair are forced under EU261 to do far more for you than Eurostar if they cancel the last flight home.

 

[TUC]

I am not sure why TOCs would set up a website to let you book hotels, flights and coach tickets.

There are sites such as Skyscanner that see a viable business model for variations of selling these kinds of combinations.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no expectation on the railway that a particular train can have different prices depending on the time you book and how busy the train is - in fact it would be weird to.

No, that is exactly how very many railways work and it’s how ours has worked for a generation. Dynamic pricing is not new. This phrase is like AI; artificial intelligence and dynamic pricing have existed for years - in fact, in some form, for all of my life. Yet these terms are now being applied to concepts as if they are new.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

If you don't wait for the next available Eurostar they won't refund alternative travel, even if the issue is ongoing for days.

And yet my perception of Eurostar is that they were much more helpful when they have issues…

Some years ago, we had some (very) cheap tickets that came from an offer in a newspaper to travel anywhere on Eurostar, so I booked tickets to Brussels. On the day of travel, there was a bad rail crash in Brussels, and all trains were suspended indefinitely. Eurostar offered to let us go anywhere else (at no cost to us), give me the cash back or give me a voucher for future travel. We chose to travel to Paris instead, but unfortunately the carriage we were sat in had failed aircon. The on board staff were incredibly apologetic, did their best to move people to other carriages. for those of us who they couldn’t find room for, they left trolleys full of bottled water at each end of the coach, and stamped our tickets so we could go to the office at the other end of the journey to claim a free return ticket.

Compare and contrast that with the last Avanti I travelled on:

Me: “sorry, I know you’re doing ticket inspection, but this coach is very hot - is the aircon on?”
TM: “it’s broken, what do you want me to do about it?”
Me: “any chance of some bottled water for the passengers?”
Tm: “you can buy water in the shop”

Off topic, are the pendolinos join a bit rubbish after their refurb? It’s a rare treat when you get one where the sockets work, and it’s 50/50 if it’s got working aircon, or am I just unlucky?

 

[greyman42]

The vast, vast majority do and that is how they booked the tickets for the train

And it is likely to be the most vulnerable one's who don't.

 

[Mainline421]

The vast, vast majority do and that is how they booked the tickets for the train and flight that was cancelled. But that is the policy of these esteemed carriers. Comparing Grand Central to Ryanair is unfair, because Ryanair are forced under EU261 to do far more for you than Eurostar if they cancel the last flight home.

Aside from the levels of compensation, Eurostar have much the same obligations to arrange overnight accommodation and/or transport to the destination.

 

[TUC]

Aside from the levels of compensation, Eurostar have much the same obligations to arrange overnight accommodation and/or transport to the destination.

But is that due it still being international travel, and so not a comparitor to national rail operators?

 

[Watershed]

But is that due it still being international travel, and so not a comparitor to national rail operators?

It's due to the PRO, which since the domestic exemption expired a couple of years ago, applies equally to Eurostar as it does to all other National Rail operators.