Public perception of railways

[Halwynd]

You've got me reminiscing about the Ashford station buffets in the late 1980's, early 90's (one on each island platform) and the ladies who ran them - perfectly lovely, as was the hot chocolate from the Cadbury's machine.
Happy days !

I tried to stick to the Nestle chocolate machines - far more friendly.

Now you've got me thinking too... I remember arriving at Plymouth off an overnight train one Saturday morning. Went to the Travellers Fare for breakfast to be met with a mountain of bacon roll boxes in the chill display and a host of other products behind but not in clear view. I politely enquired what was on offer for breakfast to which the woman behind the counter said - again with a scowl (perhaps it was the early hour) - well, you can have a bacon roll, a bacon roll or a bacon roll. Would you like a bacon roll? I said I'd have a bacon roll. Anaemic bacon microwaved to a blistering heat, served in a soggy bun was then slapped on the counter. Chap behind me, stuttering slightly, says... I'll have a bacon roll. Still makes me laugh.

Forty years later I still tend to go for a sausage bap.

 

[yorksrob]

I tried to stick to the Nestle chocolate machines - far more friendly.

Now you've got me thinking too... I remember arriving at Plymouth off an overnight train one Saturday morning. Went to the Travellers Fare for breakfast to be met with a mountain of bacon roll boxes in the chill display and a host of other products behind but not in clear view. I politely enquired what was on offer for breakfast to which the woman behind the counter said - again with a scowl (perhaps it was the early hour) - well, you can have a bacon roll, a bacon roll or a bacon roll. Would you like a bacon roll? I said I'd have a bacon roll. Anaemic bacon microwaved to a blistering heat, served in a soggy bun was then slapped on the counter. Chap behind me, stuttering slightly, says... I'll have a bacon roll. Still makes me laugh.

Forty years later I still tend to go for a sausage bap.

Our ladies at Ashford were a lot more cheerful :

Come to think of it, I did enjoy the microwave burger with mustard and ketchup !

 

[STINT47]

Some basic customer service skills would help improve perceptions.

It's simple things like apologies when things go wrong and remaining friendly and giving the impression of wanting to help.

A recent example was the staff member making PA announcements at a major west coast station during disruption. To their credit a staffmember manualy announced all the delays, platform alterations and cancellations but at no point t said we apologise for the disruption and problems caused. A minor thing that costs nothing is easy to do and can improve / change perceptions.

Anothef example of bad attitude was witnessing someone asking platform staff about a canceled train. It's cancelled csme the reply. "I need to be in Birmingham by 12". "Well you'll be late then". The mrmber of staff then laughed at that with his colleague. That's all correct and there is noting the member of staff could do about the cancellation but to be sarcastic and laugh does nothing to improve public perceptions.

The railway and some of it's employees always strikes me as an industry that takes it's existence and therefore people's job security for granted. As a guard once said to me he doesn't care if he has 1
Person or 100 on his train he doeshisjob the same. True enough but not a good attitude and this sort of view seems to be coming more widespread over the last few years.

 

[yorksrob]

Three trains in a row from Edale to Sheffield cancelled.

Even in the Castlefield meltdown, I don't recall this sort of thing (maybe the Scarborough line ?).

Something's gone wrong.

 

[geoffk]

Any post about public transport is filled with anti-public transport opinions and mindsets. There's always the mindset of "you've made it if you have x or Y car" or "haha yes, I'm so poor, I use the bus!!". It's everywhere and it affects the masses opinions. It is due to the fact that our social media is largely americanised and tailored for the north American market, resulting in American values becoming the standard. Look on r/USdeafaultism on reddit, it is the norm unfortunately.

Facebook is like this. And not just public transport, anything about cyclists, Low Traffic Zones, ULEZ or lack of parking gets the same negative treatment. Many of the posters are in the USA and I'm not sure why I'm seeing them - all about algorithms I suppose.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Facebook is like this. And not just public transport, anything about cyclists, Low Traffic Zones, ULEZ or lack of parking gets the same negative treatment. Many of the posters are in the USA and I'm not sure why I'm seeing them - all about algorithms I suppose.

Oh God, Facebook. I forgot about the cesspool. It's horrendous.

 

[Bald Rick]

Probably already been mentioned but cost is probably one of the biggest factors against rail that I hear. I know lots of people who travel frequently between Scotland and London, often on short notice, and most of the time it is cheaper to fly than take the train! Anywhere else in Europe it would be crazy to think the plane is cheaper than the train, but in the UK it is reality.

But it is the same in some other countries. You can fly Napoli to Milan next week far cheaper than the train, for example.

Similarly it is often not cheaper to fly London to Scotland than take the train.

Really. Let's start with the fact that airlines don't pay tax on the fuel they use.

They do pay air passenger duty at £6.50 though - was more until very recently and I suspect Labour will rise this again (and maybe VAT on the fuel? not entirely sure). Given a 600km segment on Ryanair burns probably (at 2L/100km/pax) 12 litres of fuel that works out at 54p/litre equivalent. Previously at the old rate it was over £1/litre equiv APD.

Indeed, APD effectively replicates fuel duty on domestic flights, whether by design or accident is an interesting question.

And of course airlines do pay VAT on fuel.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Just saw a bus and a tram crash in Manchester. Watch how the media will spin this.

 

[Rail Ranger]

But it is the same in some other countries. You can fly Napoli to Milan next week far cheaper than the train, for example.

Similarly it is often not cheaper to fly London to Scotland than take the train.









Indeed, APD effectively replicates fuel duty on domestic flights, whether by design or accident is an interesting question.

And of course airlines do pay VAT on fuel.

Bald Rick,
No, carrier airlines do not pay VAT on fuel in the UK: https://payhawk.com/blog/aviation-fuel-how-to-manage-fuel-expenses-and-rebilling

 

[43066]

Since we are now seven pages into the discussion, but still don’t seem to have had any actual figures to look at, there’s a fair bit of interesting information here:

Rail User Survey – train operator results - Transport Focus

The Rail User Survey asks passengers in Great Britain about experiences of travelling by rail and how satisfied they were with their most recent train journey. This report shows the results for train operators for overall  journey satisfaction and satisfaction with six key aspects of the journey.

www.transportfocus.org.uk

The Rail User Survey asks passengers in Great Britain about experiences of travelling by rail and how satisfied they were with their most recent train journey.

This report shows the results for train operators for overall  journey satisfaction and satisfaction with six key aspects of the journey for 22 train companies from 1 September 2023 to 23 June 2024.

Obviously a survey of rail users isn’t quite the same as one of the wider public, but is nonetheless very illustrative.

The latest version of the survey, which is conducted weekly, was published today and shows an overall satisfaction rating of 85%. That doesn’t seem too bad on the face of it and, given the negativity expressed above, again shows how the opinions of the travelling public differ from some of the views expressed on the forum.

 

[Halwynd]

There’s a fair bit of interesting information here:

Rail User Survey – train operator results - Transport Focus

The Rail User Survey asks passengers in Great Britain about experiences of travelling by rail and how satisfied they were with their most recent train journey. This report shows the results for train operators for overall  journey satisfaction and satisfaction with six key aspects of the journey.

www.transportfocus.org.uk

Obviously a survey of rail users isn’t quite the same as one of the wider public, but is nonetheless very illustrative.

The latest version of the survey, which is conducted weekly, was published today and shows an overall satisfaction rating of 85%. That doesn’t seem too bad on the face of it, and perhaps again shows how the travelling public differ from some of the views expressed on the forum.

Travel on some routes and it may well be 85%, travel in my neck of the woods (Avanti/TPE/Northern) and I'd be sceptical.

I once remember this organisation asking Merseyrail punters whether they were satisfied with the provision and cleanliness of onboard toilets on 507/508 units, to which forty odd percent said they were delighted.

Pinch of salt and all that...

 

[43066]

Travel on some routes and it may well be 85%, travel in my neck of the woods (Avanti/TPE/Northern) and I'd be sceptical.

If you dig into the stats XC do seem to be the worst at 77, which is no surprise. Northern and Avanti have held up reasonably well, both at 83, exactly the same as West Midlands Railway, who we tend to hear fewer complaints about.

Based on the bits I use to commute I’m not surprised SE have done relatively well at 87, although I might have rated them higher (the old and unloved Networker fleet is letting them down). I am mildly shocked that Thameslink are as high as 85% - ie bang on average - given how regularly they seem to be disrupted.

 

[MadCommuter]

I used to use the trains a lot when I was single. Since getting married and having a family, the railway is too expensive, you're stuck with the times that trains run and if it goes wrong, it would be my fault for suggesting the train. We drive all long distance journeys.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Fair enough. But the reality is that these sites are where people get their information and opinions from.

Gottit. I still have some difficulty in equating essentially ‘organic’ social media where individuals make their own decisions who to follow, block, disagree with and reply to, with ‘mass media’ such as a particular newspaper.
I have no doubt that many people’s opinions, including on railways, are influenced by social media.

 

[Halwynd]

If you dig into the stats XC do seem to be the worst at 77, which is no surprise. Northern and Avanti have held up reasonably well, both at 83, exactly the same as West Midlands Railway, who we tend to hear fewer complaints about.

Based on the bits I use to commute I’m not surprised SE have done relatively well at 87, although I might have rated them higher (the old and unloved Networker fleet is letting them down). I am mildly shocked that Thameslink are as high as 85% - ie bang on average - given how regularly they seem to be disrupted.

Fair do's. I'm still sceptical, but then I'm a sceptical sod when it comes to most statistics!

 

[Ediswan]

And of course airlines do pay VAT on fuel.

Not for international flights:
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-fuel-and-power/vfup4000

Supplies of aviation or marine fuels for craft on a commercial flight or voyage leaving the UK are zero-rated.

 

[Krokodil]

This is perhaps unfair to nightclub bouncers! They have by law to be registered, trained and background checked. Are there any equivalent requirements (apart from training for their personal safety) for "security" staff on railway premises ?

The ones hired by railway companies will likewise have an SIA badge.

Just saw a bus and a tram crash in Manchester. Watch how the media will spin this.

"Tram swerves into bus to avoid lycra-clad cyclist" or something

 

[Bald Rick]

Bald Rick,
No, carrier airlines do not pay VAT on fuel in the UK: https://payhawk.com/blog/aviation-fuel-how-to-manage-fuel-expenses-and-rebilling

My reading of the VAT regs is that VAT does apply for fuel supplied to domestic flights. Disclosure: I am not a tax expert, so could be wrong.

Aviation turbine fuel (Excise Notice 179a)

Find out about the rules for the production, supply and use of aviation turbine fuels (avtur).

www.gov.uk

1.8 VAT liability for avtur used on flights within the UK​

Supplies of avtur for commercial flights within the UK and all private flights are normally liable to VAT at the standard rate. See section 6 of fuel and power (VAT Notice 701/19) for further details.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Gottit. I still have some difficulty in equating essentially ‘organic’ social media where individuals make their own decisions who to follow, block, disagree with and reply to, with ‘mass media’ such as a particular newspaper.
I have no doubt that many people’s opinions, including on railways, are influenced by social media.

The thing is that there is a kind of pipeline. News outlets post on their social media, people take that and talk about it. The comments of that post alway misinterpret that providing their own opinions. People read those comments, thinking that's critical thinking and post about it. Rinse and repeat.

Equating this with mass media is hard, I understand. But when the only things that get sent around are the shocking content, that's what the news accounts and papers post in tiktok, furthing the problem. That's where I equate mass media with social media. Them posting specific content, tailored for the tiktok audience for it to go viral.

 

[eldomtom2]

Any post about public transport is filled with anti-public tranport opinions and mindsets. There's always the mindset of "you've made it if you have x or Y car" or "haha yes, I'm so poor, I use the bus!!". It's everywhere and it affects the masses opinions.

I have to say that is not something I have found to be common on social media.

 

[nanstallon]

Some basic customer service skills would help improve perceptions.

It's simple things like apologies when things go wrong and remaining friendly and giving the impression of wanting to help.

A recent example was the staff member making PA announcements at a major west coast station during disruption. To their credit a staffmember manualy announced all the delays, platform alterations and cancellations but at no point t said we apologise for the disruption and problems caused. A minor thing that costs nothing is easy to do and can improve / change perceptions.

Anothef example of bad attitude was witnessing someone asking platform staff about a canceled train. It's cancelled csme the reply. "I need to be in Birmingham by 12". "Well you'll be late then". The mrmber of staff then laughed at that with his colleague. That's all correct and there is noting the member of staff could do about the cancellation but to be sarcastic and laugh does nothing to improve public perceptions.

The railway and some of it's employees always strikes me as an industry that takes it's existence and therefore people's job security for granted. As a guard once said to me he doesn't care if he has 1
Person or 100 on his train he doeshisjob the same. True enough but not a good attitude and this sort of view seems to be coming more widespread over the last few years.

Sadly, there are a lot of railway employees who do their industry no favours. In the 80s there was an effort to become more customer focused, but the old 'take it or leave it' attitude has come back with a vengeance. Still, they now have a government that will give them whatever they want.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The thing is that there is a kind of pipeline. News outlets post on their social media, people take that and talk about it. The comments of that post alway misinterpret that providing their own opinions. People read those comments, thinking that's critical thinking and post about it. Rinse and repeat.

Equating this with mass media is hard, I understand. But when the only things that get sent around are the shocking content, that's what the news accounts and papers post in tiktok, furthing the problem. That's where I equate mass media with social media. Them posting specific content, tailored for the tiktok audience for it to go viral.

I can see that I'm an innocent abroad here. I am trying to link this to 'Public Perception of Railways' but if there should really be a distinct General Discussion thread - fair enough.

So, to check that I've got this right: (Say) The Times has a print story about a multi-million announcement about investment in an electrification project such completing the Midland Main Line. Beside their website or online subscriptions, the paper will also post a (simplified but hopefully still fairly accurate and neutral) report on TikTok. Then, inevitably, loads of bots or posters from America pile in to comment that investment in railways is a waste of money and it should be spent on additional roads for self-driving cars, etc. and 'most people' believe this. OK?

 

[Bald Rick]

Speaking generally, my social media feeds are more positive than negative about the railways. Perhaps that’s because I’m a generally positive person. I imagine that if an individual goes around finding faults in most things, their feeds will follow.

 

[Horizon22]

There is clearly a disconnect between those that use the railways and those that don't.

For regular users, satisfaction scores are all regularly above 80% for all TOCs (notably less for XC). That is likely because these people understand the majority of their journeys are OK and are understanding of when it goes wrong so long as various factors (customer information, delay repay, rerouting etc.) are suitable. There is a silent majority of rail travellers out there who are satisified - even if they are not delighted - who don't come anywhere near these forums and places like the Disputes & Prosecutions get the edge cases.

For those are not regular users, just like any industry/sector you are not involved with, you get your opinions from media or word of mouth from friends and family. Long standing feelings (someone who hasn't used it in decades and found it awful) may still permeate as that is their most relevant experience. Most of the "general" media around railways recently has been of a) HS2, b) strikes and c) resolution to strikes (generally driver salaries) which isn't going to give your average person a good picture. Not to mention long-standing misconceptions such as "leaves on the line" and more local articles about the railway only normally appearing during a major disruptive incident ("rush hour services through COUNTY in disarray due to PROBLEM").


Image: A colour coded table of each individual TOC with their overall satisfaction score, punctuality/reliability score, frequencey score, crowding score, cleanliness score, information during journey score, and value for money score.

 

[Fazaar1889]

I can see that I'm an innocent abroad here. I am trying to link this to 'Public Perception of Railways' but if there should really be a distinct General Discussion thread - fair enough.

So, to check that I've got this right: (Say) The Times has a print story about a multi-million announcement about investment in an electrification project such completing the Midland Main Line. Beside their website or online subscriptions, the paper will also post a (simplified but hopefully still fairly accurate and neutral) report on TikTok. Then, inevitably, loads of bots or posters from America pile in to comment that investment in railways is a waste of money and it should be spent on additional roads for self-driving cars, etc. and 'most people' believe this. OK?

Pretty much.

 

[778]

There is clearly a disconnect between those that use the railways and those that don't.

For regular users, satisfaction scores are all regularly above 80% for all TOCs (notably less for XC). That is likely because these people understand the majority of their journeys are OK and are understanding of when it goes wrong so long as various factors (customer information, delay repay, rerouting etc.) are suitable. There is a silent majority of rail travellers out there who are satisified - even if they are not delighted - who don't come anywhere near these forums and places like the Disputes & Prosecutions get the edge cases.

For those are not regular users, just like any industry/sector you are not involved with, you get your opinions from media or word of mouth from friends and family. Long standing feelings (someone who hasn't used it in decades and found it awful) may still permeate as that is their most relevant experience. Most of the "general" media around railways recently has been of a) HS2, b) strikes and c) resolution to strikes (generally driver salaries) which isn't going to give your average person a good picture. Not to mention long-standing misconceptions such as "leaves on the line" and more local articles about the railway only normally appearing during a major disruptive incident ("rush hour services through COUNTY in disarray due to PROBLEM").

View attachment 167575
Image: A colour coded table of each individual TOC with their overall satisfaction score, punctuality/reliability score, frequencey score, crowding score, cleanliness score, information during journey score, and value for money score.

Should West Midlands Railway and London Northwestern Railway count as two sperate companies on this list? They are 2 different brands of West Midlands Trains.

 

[En]

Quite, Advance fares can be excellent value, just today I’ve booked 1st Class Advances from Edinburgh to York for £30 each, but as you state, just turn up during the peak and buy say an Anytime return (route Any Permitted) from Manchester to London at £369.40 (standard class) and the general public (and the press, particularly the press) reel in horror and start quoting destinations you can reach by air for the same price.

Bargain fares are there to be had if you have the luxury of being able to book in advance, which I do realise not everyone can.

when was the last time you could buy an 'open ' air ticket ?

 

[etr221]

when was the last time you could buy an 'open ' air ticket ?

BA's website says you can book an open return ticket, but you need to speak to a sales agent to do so (and to book the return flight).

 

[DelW]

when was the last time you could buy an 'open ' air ticket ?

I suspect you still can if you pay enough.

I used them quite extensively in the 1990s, including on one occasion buying a ticket from the BA desk at Heathrow for a flight departing less than half an hour later.

On another occasion I flew BA back from Jersey on the return half of a Dan Air ticket, after Dan Air had overbooked my flight.

 

[trainophile]

There is clearly a disconnect between those that use the railways and those that don't.

For regular users, satisfaction scores are all regularly above 80% for all TOCs (notably less for XC). That is likely because these people understand the majority of their journeys are OK and are understanding of when it goes wrong so long as various factors (customer information, delay repay, rerouting etc.) are suitable. There is a silent majority of rail travellers out there who are satisified - even if they are not delighted - who don't come anywhere near these forums and places like the Disputes & Prosecutions get the edge cases.

For those are not regular users, just like any industry/sector you are not involved with, you get your opinions from media or word of mouth from friends and family. Long standing feelings (someone who hasn't used it in decades and found it awful) may still permeate as that is their most relevant experience. Most of the "general" media around railways recently has been of a) HS2, b) strikes and c) resolution to strikes (generally driver salaries) which isn't going to give your average person a good picture. Not to mention long-standing misconceptions such as "leaves on the line" and more local articles about the railway only normally appearing during a major disruptive incident ("rush hour services through COUNTY in disarray due to PROBLEM").

View attachment 167575
Image: A colour coded table of each individual TOC with their overall satisfaction score, punctuality/reliability score, frequencey score, crowding score, cleanliness score, information during journey score, and value for money score.

Shame there wasn't a category for comfort, including seat comfort and provision of working toilets.