Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[James H]

Not that the Tory manifesto was written with much expectation of actually being in a position to implement it

 

[DC1989]

The Times report that Labour have backed away from ending the temporary 5p cut in fuel duty (Cost 2b per year). If that's true then it makes getting rid of the £2 cap (Cost 350million per year) look very bad

 

[takno]

The Times report that Labour have backed away from ending the temporary 5p cut in fuel duty (Cost 2b per year). If that's true then it makes getting rid of the £2 cap (Cost 350million per year) look very bad

The times have been making stuff up all month, but if this happens it will be extremely disappointing

 

[The exile]

The challenge is the rural areas, but I don’t think it is just locations that are right ‘out in the sticks’. It seems to be many places outside of cities and large towns in places like the shire counties. This is particularly so in the many counties which do not have multi operator tickets. For example in Nottinghamshire, Stagecoach have a DayRider ticket available in and around Mansfield at the very reasonable price of £5, which will be less for a return journey than £3 singles. However, once you get more than around 6 miles out of town, for example to some of the towns and villages on routes towards Newark or Nottingham, the cheapest day ticket costs £9.50 and that is only valid on Stagecoach buses and no other operator.

IMHO that’s the way any government support should go. Mandate multi-operator period tickets in defined areas (day and longer) and price-cap them rather than singles. Once a ticket /pass is already paid for, it’ll get used and travel habits will start to form round it.

 

[yorksrob]

The Times report that Labour have backed away from ending the temporary 5p cut in fuel duty (Cost 2b per year). If that's true then it makes getting rid of the £2 cap (Cost 350million per year) look very bad

The times have been making stuff up all month, but if this happens it will be extremely disappointing

If it does (and that's a big "if" at this stage) then its another sop to the motor lobby at the expense of public transport users.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

That isn't true, the current maximum bus fare in the UK is not £2.
For a start, the existing cap only applies in England, not in Scotland or Wales, as transport is devolved.
For a second, there are a number of operators who don't participate in this optional scheme – a quick search has found regular stage carriage services charging up to £5 single (Lynx) and there may well be others that charge more. The number of operators participating might change – some might join, some might leave – when the details of what the grant funding will give them are released.

£2 is a discounted rate. The commercial fare for most journeys is significantly more. You're still getting a discount, just a smaller discount. And, crucially for your party-political points, the Tories would have scrapped the discount altogether if they had won the election, while Labour are continuing with a discount scheme.


The problem with that is that the current scheme (and the new scheme) work effectively because they are round numbers. A £2 or £3 fare cap is attractive. But if after a couple of years it becomes a £3.37 fare cap, it's going to look nit-picky and silly. And will still involve a hefty unfunded commitment that was never intended to be a long-term solution and does not provide even support to people.

My mistake, I was under the impression the £2 fare was a UK-wide thing rather than just applicable to England.

Realistically however, you’re very naïve if you think the £3 cap will be anything other than a flat fare in the same way as the £2 cap effectively became a flat fare. Certainly on my travels within South Yorkshire and Derbyshire, whenever I’ve stated a destination to a driver the response has always been “Two pounds please”.

A similar thing happened with the Sheffield Supertram when it was taken back into public ownership by the South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard earlier this year. The first thing he did was put the Supertram single fare up from £2 to £2.80 but instead of announcing it as a 40% fare increase, claimed it was a £2.80 fare cap! Few people were fooled.

I regularly travel from Sheffield centre to Hillsborough, a journey of about 2 miles that takes 10-15 minutes. At present I take the bus as it’s 80p cheaper than the tram but once the new £3 bus fare comes in it looks like I’ll be walking at least one way. £6 to travel 4 miles (ie there and back) is a bit of a rip off whichever way you look at it.

 

[Dent]

My mistake, I was under the impression the £2 fare was a UK-wide thing rather than just applicable to England.

Realistically however, you’re very naïve if you think the £3 cap will be anything other than a flat fare in the same way as the £2 cap effectively became a flat fare. Certainly on my travels within South Yorkshire and Derbyshire, whenever I’ve stated a destination to a driver the response has always been “Two pounds please”.

A similar thing happened with the Sheffield Supertram when it was taken back into public ownership by the South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard earlier this year. The first thing he did was put the Supertram single fare up from £2 to £2.80 but instead of announcing it as a 40% fare increase, claimed it was a £2.80 fare cap! Few people were fooled.

I regularly travel from Sheffield centre to Hillsborough, a journey of about 2 miles that takes 10-15 minutes. At present I take the bus as it’s 80p cheaper than the tram but once the new £3 bus fare comes in it looks like I’ll be walking at least one way. £6 to travel 4 miles (ie there and back) is a bit of a rip off whichever way you look at it.

You previously claimed that the £3 cap was " far higher than a typical single fare would be anyway", and analogous to a £1,000 cap on rail fares. If that were true then £3 would not become a flat fare as any fare which would be less than £3 anyway wouldn't be affected by the cap.

Because the word cap is meaningless if the cap is far higher than a typical single fare would be anyway (certainly within urban areas). It's like announcing that there'll be a £1000 cap on rail fares when the highest rail fare is nowhere near that amount!

 

[RT4038]

Realistically however, you’re very naïve if you think the £3 cap will be anything other than a flat fare in the same way as the £2 cap effectively became a flat fare. Certainly on my travels within South Yorkshire and Derbyshire, whenever I’ve stated a destination to a driver the response has always been “Two pounds please”.

I think bus companies will be thinking very hard about whether to make the £3 cap a flat fare or not. On the one hand, simplicity at having one fare, against possibly losing some short distance riders (particularly in those urban areas that may have had cheaper fares). In my area of residence, the cheapest fare would probably be £3 (or close to) by now and I fully expect the £3 to become the new flat fare.

They could have taken the opportunity to make it a one hour ticket which would soften the blow of the price increase.

This would take too long to negotiate the set up, and is too risky for both government and the bus companies to contemplate. The £2/£3 fare cap is a voluntary scheme (the Govt have no legal power to impose it, save perhaps via a convoluted route that would be very time consuming with uncertainty) and for the bus companies to agree participation it needs to be reasonably transparent and certain.

 

[Malaxa]

The Times report that Labour have backed away from ending the temporary 5p cut in fuel duty (Cost 2b per year). If that's true then it makes getting rid of the £2 cap (Cost 350million per year) look very bad

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04712/

"The current duty rate is the lowest since March 2009 in cash terms and the lowest since March 1993 in real terms"
Such is the "attack on the motorist", that no government wants to go there....

 

[Teapot42]

A similar thing happened with the Sheffield Supertram when it was taken back into public ownership by the South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard earlier this year. The first thing he did was put the Supertram single fare up from £2 to £2.80 but instead of announcing it as a 40% fare increase, claimed it was a £2.80 fare cap! Few people were fooled.

Supertram fares were reduced to come in line with the cap when it was first introduced. They were raised while it was still under Stagecoach control.

 

[DC1989]

Confirmed fuel duty freeze at a cost to the taxpayer of 3b

Unbelievable

 

[yorksrob]

Where's our freeze in train fares ?

(On the pus side, I wholeheartedly agree with the cut in duty on draught beer )

 

[SuspectUsual]

So.

A first year Government

A Government with a massive majority

A Government committed to green policies

A Government intending to increase taxation by approximately £40bn in the budget

A Government committed to championing the cause of the low paid

So the obvious thing to do is maintain the freeze on fuel duty and increase the cap on bus fares by 50%

Its just staggeringly bad politics (as well as just being a stupidly bad decision)

 

[PGAT]

It’s not the end of the world, I’m just happy that they didn’t remove the cap at all

 

[Nammer]

So.

A first year Government

A Government with a massive majority

A Government committed to green policies

A Government intending to increase taxation by approximately £40bn in the budget

A Government committed to championing the cause of the low paid

So the obvious thing to do is maintain the freeze on fuel duty and increase the cap on bus fares by 50%

Its just staggeringly bad politics (as well as just being a stupidly bad decision)

Absolutely shocking from a government which shouts about it's 'Buses Back Better' campaign and then panders to the motorist, yet again. Especially as they say about all the savings they have to make, filling this £40bn 'black hole' from every other part of the economy. But lets not upset the motorist... strewth!

 

[takno]

Absolutely shocking from a government which shouts about it's 'Buses Back Better' campaign and then panders to the motorist, yet again. Especially as they say about all the savings they have to make, filling this £40bn 'black hole' from every other part of the economy. But lets not upset the motorist... strewth!

It's kind of abysmal, but presumably they decided they'd backed themselves into a corner with all the defending working families stuff. Keeps something in the tank for next year I guess

 

[JamesT]

Absolutely shocking from a government which shouts about it's 'Buses Back Better' campaign and then panders to the motorist, yet again. Especially as they say about all the savings they have to make, filling this £40bn 'black hole' from every other part of the economy. But lets not upset the motorist... strewth!

Buses use fuel as well...

 

[Mark J]

I'm one who switched to buses due to the £2 price cap.

Now that the fare is to be raised to £3, I will no longer be using the bus as often (when this increase occurs). Some routes just aren't worth £3 - or more.

Here in Reading, Reading Buses recently increased the price of an all day ticket to £4.50 on board, £4 if bought on app (up from £3.50 on board - £3.40 if bought on the app).

They have also failed to reinstate the reduced evening fare price, that used to be in operation after 6pm. Encouraging people to use the bus at quieter times in the evening.

What we will now see is buses running emptier in the evenings. Something of something fare wise, is better than nothing of nothing.

In addition the 4/x4 route between Reading and Bracknell will become uncompetitive off peak.

A £6 flat fare return to anywhere outside the Simply Reading zone, between Winnersh and Bracknell.

Compared to £5.20 (Reading to Bracknell), £4.20 (Reading to Wokingham) on SWR, using an Evening Out during the week. Falling to £3.45 (Reading to Bracknell), £2.75 (Reading to Wokingham) on a Saturday afternoon, and Sunday - or for anyone with a national railcard, any day of the week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Buses use fuel as well...

Bus Service Operator's Grant (BSOG) offsets the fuel duty paid for local bus services. It is relevant to coaches, however.

 

[JamesT]

Bus Service Operator's Grant (BSOG) offsets the fuel duty paid for local bus services. It is relevant to coaches, however.

BSOG isn't a complete rebate. There's no guarantee it would be increased in line with any increase to fuel duty.

 

[Dent]

Confirmed fuel duty freeze at a cost to the taxpayer of 3b

Unbelievable

Anyone calling for an increase in fuel duty should remember that virtually all goods and services require road transport for some part of their supply chain. Do you really want the prices of all goods and services to be pushed up all over again when inflation has only just settled down from the last peak, which was largely caused by increased fuel costs?

 

[RT4038]

So.

A first year Government

A Government with a massive majority

A Government committed to green policies

A Government intending to increase taxation by approximately £40bn in the budget

A Government committed to championing the cause of the low paid

So the obvious thing to do is maintain the freeze on fuel duty and increase the cap on bus fares by 50%

Its just staggeringly bad politics (as well as just being a stupidly bad decision)

Plus increase in the cost of bus drivers (employers NI contribution). But don't worry, Air Passenger Duty on Private Jets increased by 50%....... (How much is that going to net then?)

Anyone calling for an increase in fuel duty should remember that virtually all goods and services require road transport for some part of their supply chain. Do you really the prices of all goods and services to be pushed up all over again when inflation has only just settled down from the last peak which was largely caused by increased fuel costs?

But of course none of these goods and service costs are going to increase because of increased employers NI contribution. Road Haulage could get a rebate scheme, if only their costs were of consideration.

 

[HSTEd]

Anyone calling for an increase in fuel duty should remember that virtually all goods and services require road transport for some part of their supply chain. Do you really want the prices of all goods and services to be pushed up all over again when inflation has only just settled down from the last peak which was largely caused by increased fuel costs?

The budget is full of inflationary policies though, for example with the minimum wage.

The real reason fuel duty is frozen is because it would blow up what remains of the Labour voting coalition. Labour is still operating on the idea that magical growth will appear and Starmer will manage to fix everything by simply not being Boris/Sunak/May.
Whilst they continue to believe that we will not see a break with the status quo and we will continue to crawl down the road towards greater public disillusionment.

 

[DC1989]

The budget is full of inflationary policies though, for example with the minimum wage.

The real reason fuel duty is frozen is because it would blow up what remains of the Labour voting coalition. Labour is still operating on the idea that magical growth will appear and Starmer will manage to fix everything by simply not being Boris/Sunak/May.
Whilst they continue to believe that we will not see a break with the status quo and we will continue to crawl down the road towards greater public disillusionment.

Yeah exactly. Rail fares are rising (again) by 4.6% - that's surely inflationary. Compare average rail costs from 2011 to now next to fuel duty and fuel prices...

OBR says growth will be 1.8% in 2026 and inflation will be 2.3%. The country is just on a steep decline and getting poorer and poorer.

Unless something amazing happens with AI and productivity we're in for a very depressing few years.

 

[Dent]

The budget is full of inflationary policies though, for example with the minimum wage.

How does that change the point that adding another reflationary policy in the form of an increase in fuel duty would cause a knock-on effect of a further increase to the price of goods and services?

I don't follow the logic that an inflationary policy of increase fuel duty would be somehow less undesirable because other inflationary policies also exist. This is clearely a logical fallacy.

 

[SuspectUsual]

But of course none of these goods and service costs are going to increase because of increased employers NI contribution.

The structuring of the changes to employers’ NI contributions - specifically decreasing the start point - hits employers with larger proportions of lower paid workers harder, doesn’t it? Like, er, retailers

 

[yorksrob]

How does that change the point that adding another reflationary policy in the form of an increase in fuel duty would cause a knock-on effect of a further increase to the price of goods and services?

I don't follow the logic that an inflationary policy of increase fuel duty would be somehow less undesirable because other inflationary policies also exist. This is clearely a logical fallacy.

Why is rail fare inflation somehow "more desirable" than fuel inflation to the extent that it has consistently risen over the last fifteen years when the other has been frozen ?

 

[Mark J]

Yeah exactly. Rail fares are rising (again) by 4.6% - that's surely inflationary. Compare average rail costs from 2011 to now next to fuel duty and fuel prices...

OBR says growth will be 1.8% in 2026 and inflation will be 2.3%. The country is just on a steep decline and getting poorer and poorer.

Unless something amazing happens with AI and productivity we're in for a very depressing few years.

Unregulated GWR and SWR fares have increased 8% this year. I believe Greater Anglia fares have too. The standard (publicised) yearly increase in March, and again in September - bringing the total of 8%.

Prices will be going up again early next year.

This is just becoming ridiculous.

 

[JamesT]

Why is rail fare inflation somehow "more desirable" than fuel inflation to the extent that it has consistently risen over the last fifteen years when the other has been frozen ?

Because rail inflation affects a far smaller proportion of the country, whereas increasing the cost of transporting goods affects everyone?

 

[Dent]

Why is rail fare inflation somehow "more desirable" than fuel inflation to the extent that it has consistently risen over the last fifteen years when the other has been frozen ?

I have not made any such claim.