Trainsplit survey

[superkopite]

A private car is luxury which is never under consideration if you want to save money.

This is not even remotely true. There are many people/families up and down the country for whom cars are not a luxury and work out to be a far cheaper option than relying on public transport options.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

Others, like the survey seems to be suggesting, might not really care where they go, but want a weekend away. They would be quite happy to change destination completely - not something that would be relevant for me.

So for instance we could mail our database saying "Here are Christmas markets you can visit from your local station for £15 or £30 next weekend". This sort of "push marketing" is another business case for ADS.

 

[trainophile]

I have completed it. A major shortcoming that is it doesn't give me an option of "choosing another cheaper train route" when the train ticket I want is too expensive.

An excellent point. I very rarely don't use the "via" and/or "avoid" options to find my optimum itinerary. In my case an extra connection or extra hour or so is pretty immaterial if it saves a few quid.

I almost always book my hotel accommodation well in advance of the cheap train tickets becoming available, so changing the dates is hardly ever an option, unless for personal reasons. I did find it rather hard to establish what the last section of the survey with the various options was trying to achieve. Most people make their leisure travel arrangements in a fluid way, dependant on accommodation price, suitable dates/number of nights away, and then try to get the cheapest train tickets, often by referral to dates before your intended journey for comparative purposes of what to expect and what the options might be when the Advances are released.

I'm a big fan of Trainsplit, and hope that this exercise doesn't make using the website harder or less advantageous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most people make their leisure travel arrangements in a fluid way, dependant on accommodation price, suitable dates/number of nights away, and then try to get the cheapest train tickets, often by referral to dates before your intended journey for comparative purposes of what to expect and what the options might be when the Advances are released.

Is that actually true? For a midweek trip perhaps, but for a weekend away the flexibility is relatively limited - probably just about a two-hour slot on the Friday evening (after work to last train) and about a four to six-hour slot on the Sunday afternoon/evening. I'd expect most people to look at that and choose between train and driving accordingly.

 

[trainophile]

Is that actually true? For a midweek trip perhaps, but for a weekend away the flexibility is relatively limited - probably just about a two-hour slot on the Friday evening (after work to last train) and about a four to six-hour slot on the Sunday afternoon/evening. I'd expect most people to look at that and choose between train and driving accordingly.

Ah, I see your point. As my own leisure travel is invariably midweek, being retired, I was speaking for myself, but of course not everyone is in a similar position. Apologies for the sweeping generalisation .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, I see your point. As my own leisure travel is invariably midweek, being retired, I was speaking for myself, but of course not everyone is in a similar position. Apologies for the sweeping generalisation .

It's probably the case that the proposed "timeslot" ticket scheme (as is already done by e.g. Eurostar) would be of most benefit to retirees, certainly, plus possibly some students.

 

[IslandDweller]

The endless potential journeys, non of which I am likely to do, seemed pointless. So I gave up

 

[Bletchleyite]

The endless potential journeys, non of which I am likely to do, seemed pointless. So I gave up

I just clicked "not interested" to those. If I was planning to go to the Lake District I'm hardly going to go to Reading instead. It's clearly aimed at recreating what airlines have on their front pages, but air travel's range of destinations is different.

 

[AlterEgo]

So for instance a month's view of availability would suit you? Precisely the kind of thing ADS will enable inc accurate data.

This would work for me, for example.

FWIW I found the survey a bit long and I lost interest by the end, where I was asked about alternate trips and costs. I really didn't invest much effort in that and was very much of the mind that "well I'm not sure I would pay any of those fares, and I mostly travel first class anyway, so if it's standard, no I would not bother" and "who wants a week in Sheffield?" etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

New thread regarding car affordability: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/is-car-ownership-unaffordable.276890/

 

[35B]

Ensuring the accuracy and reliability of our data has always been the primary objective. We are confident that the survey is well structured to avoid unreliable, biased feedback and inaccurate results. I'm sure the team will be very aware of the points you make as they analyze the data to ensure the interpretations are correct.

I found the survey intensely annoying. I tried to pick a typical leisure trip, conform it to the available destinations and then work from there. Unfortunately, the range of options being asked for gave no sense of my sensitivity - and substituting Skegness for Newcastle when the purpose is seeing family really doesn’t work!

 

[Skymonster]

When the survey asked me where and when I might want to go by train and when, but then didn’t offer me my home station as a starting point, I began to feel the whole thing was futile and abandoned it.

 

[1D54]

I expected much better than this when i saw the thread title. I answered the first couple of questions then decided i have much more important things to do with my time than fill out such a badly designed/ worded survey.

 

[talldave]

Yes. It offers that option which I ranked the last. A private car is luxury which is never under consideration if you want to save money.

If you own a car for which the fixed costs are already paid, the marginal cost of fuel/parking may very well offer a saving vs the train, particularly as the number of travellers increases.

Edit: apologies, didn't see the link to the other thread.

My ultimate ticketing tool would be the one the finds the cheapest ticket for my intended journey which is actually a ticket to somewhere else.

 

[35B]

Yes. It offers that option which I ranked the last. A private car is luxury which is never under consideration if you want to save money.

Whereas, as a car owner and considering my sample answer to the survey, the car is absolutely my go to alternative. And as I’m already paying for it, the only number that matters to me is the direct cost of the journey.

Neither of us is right or wrong, but our circumstances and approaches will take us to different conclusions. Underwhelmed as I am by the survey design, I can see why understanding the different reactions to these questions is of interest to a business selling travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whereas, as a car owner and considering my sample answer to the survey, the car is absolutely my go to alternative. And as I’m already paying for it, the only number that matters to me is the direct cost of the journey.

Neither of us is right or wrong, but our circumstances and approaches will take us to different conclusions. Underwhelmed as I am by the survey design, I can see why understanding the different reactions to these questions is of interest to a business selling travel.

This survey in particular is basically asking:

1. Are you time/date/destination flexible?

2. If (1) is yes, in what ways are you flexible so an airline style "how about this" proposal could work best?

If (1) is "no", as it is for me, it'll probably be filtered out. It's clearly written with the aim of creating such a feature. I'm modally flexible (i.e. if rail is too costly or inconvenient I drive), but not time/date/destination.

 

[trainophile]

I reckon the guys at Trainsplit/Raileasy could have designed a more useful survey without bringing in a third party who don’t seem to have understood the concept.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

I'm a big fan of Trainsplit, and hope that this exercise doesn't make using the website harder or less advantageous.

Thanks for being a "fan" This research is to help us get ADS, an availability feed from RARS. With that, rather than being limited by what we are permitted to query with RARS, we'll have our own real time, totally up to date "cache" so we will undoubtedly find more/better prices over a much longer timescale.

I reckon the guys at Trainsplit/Raileasy could have designed a more useful survey without bringing in a third party who don’t seem to have understood the concept.

Jacobs have got extensive rail experience having worked for both TOCs and the DfT on franchise bids back in the day. What caught our attention was a John Siraut (from Jacobs) post on LinkedIn about average carriage occupancy by TOC based on ORR data from the 1st quarter this year. We did some number crunching for the rolling stock on the main inter city routes and got figures suggesting an average carriage is about 60% unsold. Filling empty seats is an objective of the FTR programme and access to ADS can only help. There's a figure of 45 million empty seats that gets bandied about but no one seems to know the timescale it applies to

 

[miklcct]

This survey in particular is basically asking:

1. Are you time/date/destination flexible?

2. If (1) is yes, in what ways are you flexible so an airline style "how about this" proposal could work best?

If (1) is "no", as it is for me, it'll probably be filtered out. It's clearly written with the aim of creating such a feature. I'm modally flexible (i.e. if rail is too costly or inconvenient I drive), but not time/date/destination.

So this is a rubbish survey.

If we specify that 1 is no, we should make questions to offer choices between different train routes / modes of transport / drive a car / do not travel instead for the same journey (time / origin / destination)

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

So this is a rubbish survey.

If we specify that 1 is no, we should make questions to offer choices between different train routes / modes of transport / drive a car / do not travel instead for the same journey (time / origin / destination)

We want to quantify how flexible people can be with their rail travel.

 

[miklcct]

We want to quantify how flexible people can be with their rail travel.

I have answered "do not travel" to most of the questions because I have near-0 flexibility.

I remembered once in the past SWR sent me a survey asking me to choose between different options for the same journey, such as between a faster and more expensive train or a slower and cheaper train; or a faster journey with changes and slower direct train; or a faster crowded train and a slower empty train.

 

[Starmill]

Thank you to everyone who completed the survey. The survey was "coded" by Verian, a market research company, and designed by Jacobs who have historically done extensive franchise work for TOCs and the DfT, including demand forecasting. Our goal is to estimate potential revenue growth if we and other retailers gain access to an availability feed from RARS - ADS - the development of which will be funded by the IRR.

Among other things this access would allow us to display a week's worth of availability, or a month's, instead of just a few services, making it easier for customers with flexible travel plans to find quieter and cheaper options. Filling empty seats is a key objective of the Fares, Ticketing, and Retail Reform programme which access to ADS will undoubtedly support. This survey aims to quantify the potential revenue uplift.

Additionally, ADS will reduce the need for new "retailing" functionality and the load on RARS, making further upgrades like the recent AWS implementation unnecessary, thereby saving money. The results will be available in January.

I don't feel you've got good value for money from Jacobs if they've designed your questionnaire. Was the consultant whom they provided Market Research Society accreditated? It's pretty disappointing to see this level of work from such a large and well-respected consultant. Another one might have done you a much better job for a similar price.

 

[miklcct]

This research is to help us get ADS, an availability feed from RARS. With that, rather than being limited by what we are permitted to query with RARS, we'll have our own real time, totally up to date "cache" so we will undoubtedly find more/better prices over a much longer timescale.

As a customer, the way to help me find more best-value train fares is to find more routings over the same timescale. For example, the algorithm can be looking from the fare database first, and try to identify journey opportunities which are valid on the cheap fares. The via points, avoid points, include / exclude TOCs from the fare data can be considered in the journey planner to provide a variety of pareto-optimal journey opportunities.

If there is a certain "via XXX" fare which is the cheapest flexible fare, the journey planner should always return an option going via XXX if possible; if there is an operator specific fare which is the cheapest flexible fare, the journey planner should always return an option using these operators only. Unfortunately Trainsplit doesn't currently do that with an example search from Weymouth to Dover.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

As a customer, the way to help me find more best-value train fares is to find more routings over the same timescale. For example, the algorithm can be looking from the fare database first, and try to identify journey opportunities which are valid on the cheap fares. The via points, avoid points, include / exclude TOCs from the fare data can be considered in the journey planner to provide a variety of pareto-optimal journey opportunities.

If there is a certain "via XXX" fare which is the cheapest flexible fare, the journey planner should always return an option going via XXX if possible; if there is an operator specific fare which is the cheapest flexible fare, the journey planner should always return an option using these operators only. Unfortunately Trainsplit doesn't currently do that with an example search from Weymouth to Dover.

I think you've got to admit though we have a pretty good "go" at what you suggest, far more so than other journey planners used by retailers. But currently there are limits imposed on us and that is the point about ADS, and why we're "campaigning" so hard to get it, the shackles will be off

I don't feel you've got good value for money from Jacobs if they've designed your questionnaire. Was the consultant whom they provided Market Research Society accreditated? It's pretty disappointing to see this level of work from such a large and well-respected consultant. Another one might have done you a much better job for a similar price.

We understand that some participants found the survey long and challenging to complete. However, we want to emphasise that it's the data collected and its interpretation that are crucial for our objectives. With regards that we have the utmost confidence in Jacobs due to their standing and extensive experience in the rail industry. Regarding your question about the consultant's accreditation, I have no idea but I did note Verian have been shortlisted for 4 prestigious MRS and Research Live Awards.

 

[infobleep]

I would like to fill out the survey but have no idea how many business or leisure trips I take a year.

I don't keep such stats and even when I did, it was only stats relating to using my Gold Card discount.

As a result I cannot complete the survey, so my voice will not be heard. I likely have a severley deficient autobiographical memory, which might be why I can't remember. Of course people with neurodiverse conditions shouldn't be excluded.

Were they considered when the survey was designed?

I am not keen on making up a random inaccurate figure just to move the survey forward.

Having said that, I could enter 99999 which is the largest number allowed.

That's ninety-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine business joruneys and the same number again for leisure journeys.

All that is needed was an option to say I can't remember or don't know.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

I would like to fill out the survey but have no idea how many business or leisure trips I take a year.

I don't keep such stats and even when I did, it was only stats relating to using my Gold Card discount.

As a result I cannot complete the survey, so my voice will not be heard. I likely have a severley deficient autobiographical memory, which might be why I can't remember. Of course people with neurodiverse conditions shouldn't be excluded.

Were they considered when the survey was designed?

I am not keen on making up a random inaccurate figure just to move the survey forward.

Having said that, I could enter 99999 which is the largest number allowed.

That's ninety-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine business joruneys and the same number again for leisure journeys.

All that is needed was an option to say I can't remember or don't know.

Please just do what you can. You'll still be heard

 

[superkopite]

I would like to fill out the survey but have no idea how many business or leisure trips I take a year.

I don't keep such stats and even when I did, it was only stats relating to using my Gold Card discount.

As a result I cannot complete the survey, so my voice will not be heard. I likely have a severley deficient autobiographical memory, which might be why I can't remember. Of course people with neurodiverse conditions shouldn't be excluded.

Were they considered when the survey was designed?

I am not keen on making up a random inaccurate figure just to move the survey forward.

Having said that, I could enter 99999 which is the largest number allowed.

That's ninety-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine business joruneys and the same number again for leisure journeys.

All that is needed was an option to say I can't remember or don't know.

I am pretty sure most other people would have estimated the number of journeys they made, outside of a very few people, no one has that information to hand.

 

[Starmill]

We understand that some participants found the survey long and challenging to complete. However, we want to emphasise that it's the data collected and its interpretation that are crucial for our objectives. With regards that we have the utmost confidence in Jacobs due to their standing and extensive experience in the rail industry. Regarding your question about the consultant's accreditation, I have no idea but I did note Verian have been shortlisted for 4 prestigious MRS and Research Live Awards.

Verian have a strong reputation but it would seem to me that Jacobs could've made you a great questionnaire with just a few changes.

I am pretty sure most other people would have estimated the number of journeys they made, outside of a very few people, no one has that information to hand.

A competent consultant would never ask people to pull numbers for something like that out of their backside, they'd create a multi-response with numbered ranges or descriptions of ranges. This would have the good side effect of preventing inputs like 9999 or 1.12 or pi or whatever else.

 

[infobleep]

Please just do what you can. You'll still be heard

I can't though as that question is mandatory. If I lie and I give you rubbish information, which might then lead to my other responses being considered someone playing around and discounted

I am pretty sure most other people would have estimated the number of journeys they made, outside of a very few people, no one has that information to hand.

Possibly but it asks for the number of journeys as opposed to the approximate number. It's not my job to intwrpt the meaning of their question.

Even then I'm not sure how confident I would be with my estimate.

 

[superkopite]

I can't though as that question is mandatory. If I lie and I give you rubbish information, which might then lead to my other responses being considered someone playing around and discounted


Possibly but it asks for the number of journeys as opposed to the approximate number. It's not my job to intwrpt the meaning of their question.

Even then I'm not sure how confident I would be with my estimate.

Then just leave the survey alone.