Bus design

[318266]

On a different note, I wonder if buses are unnecessarily expensive are as they are produced on a bespoke basis with companies wanting their own specifications. Would they be notably cheaper to buy if manufacturers could make savings by offering a number of standard designs that could be produced at scale?

Most manufacturers have a basic "stock specification", usually ordered by small independents who care more about "how many seats" than "what colour should the poles be".

From experience, this tends to be more with coaches than buses.

 

[Titfield]

On a different note, I wonder if buses are unnecessarily expensive are as they are produced on a bespoke basis with companies wanting their own specifications. Would they be notably cheaper to buy if manufacturers could make savings by offering a number of standard designs that could be produced at scale?

I think that the "high" cost of buses and coaches is mainly because they are produced in such small numbers that there is a very high labour cost component per unit and little if any economies of scale.

 

[joieman]

I visited Loughborough University today to see the open day shuttle buses, and rode on Notts+Derby's Volvo B9TL/Wright Eclipse Gemini 23 (SN08 BYU) (new to Lothian). A few observations:
Firstly, this is the first bus I have ever ridden on that is fitted with seatbelts. (23 has lap seatbelts rather than three-point seatbelts.)
Secondly, there was rubber padding on not only the bar across the front windscreen but also on the top of nearly every seat. I've seen pictures of other buses like this which are used for school work, which I believe this bus is used for on a regular basis.
Most unusual of all, though, was a door at the bottom of the stairs! I had no idea this was even a thing, but it seems like a smart idea under some circumstances.

 

[37114]

.
Most unusual of all, though, was a door at the bottom of the stairs! I had no idea this was even a thing, but it seems like a smart idea under some circumstances.

Lothian fitted this to many of their buses, was used at night to close off the upper deck, seems a sensible idea.

 

[stevieinselby]

The MCV eVoRa has a solution to the rear seats that I can't say I'm that keen on. As you can see from this photo, the seat rise in several tiers as you get further back. While this means you can have seats on top of the rear wheel arches, it also means the back few rows are so high that you are having to bend down to see out the side windoes and have pretty much zero forward view. It might look open but it actually feels rather cramped.

The legroom is also desperately tight in those tiered seats, which doesn't help the crampedness.

 

[edwin_m]

On a different note, I wonder if buses are unnecessarily expensive are as they are produced on a bespoke basis with companies wanting their own specifications. Would they be notably cheaper to buy if manufacturers could make savings by offering a number of standard designs that could be produced at scale?

Much less so these days than in previous years. For example in the 70s Selnec/GMPTE had a totally bespoke bodyshell and well into the 80s Nottingham was specifying some strange variations with half-width front doors and pretty much unique bodywork.

 

[MotCO]

Much less so these days than in previous years. For example in the 70s Selnec/GMPTE had a totally bespoke bodyshell and well into the 80s Nottingham was specifying some strange variations with half-width front doors and pretty much unique bodywork.

Unique bodywork, or body panels? I would expect the steel structure underneath to be largely unchanged, with a few extra extrusions to mount the angled destination box etc.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Unique bodywork, or body panels? I would expect the steel structure underneath to be largely unchanged, with a few extra extrusions to mount the angled destination box etc.

The NCME body used by SELNEC/GMT was designed with their co-operation and input but as MotCO says, the structure was used on chassis for various operators, the trim spec then being dependent on how much the operator was willing to pay. SELNEC and GMT had posh cabs/dashboards and electrical systems that other operators didn't adopt due to them being more expensive.

 

[joieman]

One strange thing I noticed about First's new electric buses in Leicester is that the destination blinds are apparently photosensitive, dimming when passing under trees!

 

[py_megapixel]

One strange thing I noticed about First's new electric buses in Leicester is that the destination blinds are apparently photosensitive, dimming when passing under trees!

I think they're all (supposed to be) dimmable, otherwise they would be far too bright to use at night. However, on most buses, this technology is either very unreliable or relies on manual setting by the driver, as I've seen plenty left in the dimmed state and thus difficult to read in daylight.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I think they're all (supposed to be) dimmable, otherwise they would be far too bright to use at night. However, on most buses, this technology is either very unreliable or relies on manual setting by the driver, as I've seen plenty left in the dimmed state and thus difficult to read in daylight.

They have a light sensor on the front, just along one of the sides of the LED* panel. It might not operate correctly if faulty, covered (such as dirt on the glass or hidden by the fascia vinyl), or if it is picking up too much light (such as large amounts of street lighting).

* - Light emitting diodes, the small bulbs that make up a destination display.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Unique bodywork, or body panels? I would expect the steel structure underneath to be largely unchanged, with a few extra extrusions to mount the angled destination box etc.

In Nottingham's case unique bodywork as the pillar spacing was different to the manufacturers standard products and iirc the floor mounting was different to give increased headroom in the saloons. That's before you get onto different headlight mounting arrangements etc, etc, but that probably demands a separate thread!

 

[Goldfish62]

I think they're all (supposed to be) dimmable, otherwise they would be far too bright to use at night. However, on most buses, this technology is either very unreliable or relies on manual setting by the driver, as I've seen plenty left in the dimmed state and thus difficult to read in daylight.

Absolutely. All LED displays have light sensors fitted, but if the sensor fails that's when the display becomes unreadable in some light conditions.

 

[joieman]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the middle seat in the row of seats at the back of some buses manufactured by Wrightbus (notably the Streetdeck Electroliner) have been omitted. I thought I heard it was a new legal requirement so that folks don't get yeeted headlong in the event of sudden braking. However, whatever the case, new ADL buses (including the E400EV) still often seem to have them.

Here's a photo of the inside of a Wright Streetdeck Electroliner (photo not mine)

Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD) LD interior

Wright Streetdeck Electroliner Lower deck interior of Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD)

flic.kr

And here's inside ADL's demonstrator AD24 BEV (photo also not mine)

Alexander Dennis Enviro 400EV (AD24 BEV)

Operator: (On loan) to Reading Buses from Alexander Dennis Make/Model: ADL E40EV/Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 Registration Number: AD24 BEV View: Interior

flic.kr

In the event that the seat is omitted, I think it would be best to stick a luggage tray of some kind on top rather than leaving it as dead space.

 

[MCR247]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the middle seat in the row of seats at the back of some buses manufactured by Wrightbus (notably the Streetdeck Electroliner) have been omitted. I thought I heard it was a new legal requirement so that folks don't get yeeted headlong in the event of sudden braking. However, whatever the case, new ADL buses (including the E400EV) still often seem to have them.

Here's a photo of the inside of a Wright Streetdeck Electroliner (photo not mine)

Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD) LD interior

Wright Streetdeck Electroliner Lower deck interior of Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD)

flic.kr

And here's inside ADL's demonstrator AD24 BEV (photo also not mine)

Alexander Dennis Enviro 400EV (AD24 BEV)

Operator: (On loan) to Reading Buses from Alexander Dennis Make/Model: ADL E40EV/Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 Registration Number: AD24 BEV View: Interior

flic.kr

In the event that the seat is omitted, I think it would be best to stick a luggage tray of some kind on top rather than leaving it as dead space.

Maybe it’s down to the operators? Nottingham City Transports Enviro 400 CBGs have no middle seat at the back upstairs, but there is still on downstairs (though it has poles you can grab onto either side I think)

 

[SSmith2009]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the middle seat in the row of seats at the back of some buses manufactured by Wrightbus (notably the Streetdeck Electroliner) have been omitted. I thought I heard it was a new legal requirement so that folks don't get yeeted headlong in the event of sudden braking. However, whatever the case, new ADL buses (including the E400EV) still often seem to have them.

Here's a photo of the inside of a Wright Streetdeck Electroliner (photo not mine)

Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD) LD interior

Wright Streetdeck Electroliner Lower deck interior of Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD)

flic.kr

And here's inside ADL's demonstrator AD24 BEV (photo also not mine)

Alexander Dennis Enviro 400EV (AD24 BEV)

Operator: (On loan) to Reading Buses from Alexander Dennis Make/Model: ADL E40EV/Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 Registration Number: AD24 BEV View: Interior

flic.kr

In the event that the seat is omitted, I think it would be best to stick a luggage tray of some kind on top rather than leaving it as dead space.

On the Streetdeck Electroliner the seating capacity is lower owing to the extra weight of batteries and related equipment.

Even the repowered one with First Leicester has the same seats removed.

 

[JD2168]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the middle seat in the row of seats at the back of some buses manufactured by Wrightbus (notably the Streetdeck Electroliner) have been omitted. I thought I heard it was a new legal requirement so that folks don't get yeeted headlong in the event of sudden braking. However, whatever the case, new ADL buses (including the E400EV) still often seem to have them.

Here's a photo of the inside of a Wright Streetdeck Electroliner (photo not mine)

Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD) LD interior

Wright Streetdeck Electroliner Lower deck interior of Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD)

flic.kr

And here's inside ADL's demonstrator AD24 BEV (photo also not mine)

Alexander Dennis Enviro 400EV (AD24 BEV)

Operator: (On loan) to Reading Buses from Alexander Dennis Make/Model: ADL E40EV/Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 Registration Number: AD24 BEV View: Interior

flic.kr

In the event that the seat is omitted, I think it would be best to stick a luggage tray of some kind on top rather than leaving it as dead space.

Some of South Yorkshire’ Dominators had a luggage style bay in the middle of the 4 seats at the back downstairs. Often people would put their young kids in the seat as a sort of baby seat or it got used for bags & other luggage type stuff.

 

[Russel]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the middle seat in the row of seats at the back of some buses manufactured by Wrightbus (notably the Streetdeck Electroliner) have been omitted. I thought I heard it was a new legal requirement so that folks don't get yeeted headlong in the event of sudden braking. However, whatever the case, new ADL buses (including the E400EV) still often seem to have them.

Here's a photo of the inside of a Wright Streetdeck Electroliner (photo not mine)

Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD) LD interior

Wright Streetdeck Electroliner Lower deck interior of Go North West’s 2102 (MF74NTD)

flic.kr

And here's inside ADL's demonstrator AD24 BEV (photo also not mine)

Alexander Dennis Enviro 400EV (AD24 BEV)

Operator: (On loan) to Reading Buses from Alexander Dennis Make/Model: ADL E40EV/Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 Registration Number: AD24 BEV View: Interior

flic.kr

In the event that the seat is omitted, I think it would be best to stick a luggage tray of some kind on top rather than leaving it as dead space.

The lack of a middle seat was a TFL idea, I believe.

Even ignoring the safety aspect, it's not a bad idea as I rarely see anyone sitting in it.

 

[Ghostbus]

Lastly, why do bus manufacturers still persist in putting backwards-facing seats over the rear wheels when people are reluctant to use them and they are used as little more than footrests?

It's possibly my most favourite aspect of bus design.

There's literally no downsides and multiple upsides when you've got two or even three kids as traveling companions.

There are no disputes, they all get their favoured back of the bus seat, that being a draw that can easily overcome their first preference - upstairs - which I will only head for if all four front row seats are free. They usual aren't.

Downstairs at the back, they can be kept quiet and away from other passengers, who they would otherwise annoy with their mischief and general inability to sit still. That back section becomes a miniature classroom slash holding cell, with a great view inside and out for them. I am happy to face backwards with no view out, for a comfortable supervisory position. They in turn naturally then sit forward, properly.

There is relative peace, order and comfort. The dream of any parent or guardian.

 

[Goldfish62]

The lack of a middle seat was a TFL idea, I believe.

Even ignoring the safety aspect, it's not a bad idea as I rarely see anyone sitting in it.

Indeed. You can't get 5 across comfortably in reality.

 

[Mikey C]

The lack of a middle seat was a TFL idea, I believe.

Even ignoring the safety aspect, it's not a bad idea as I rarely see anyone sitting in it.

If all the lower deck seats are full, I regularly see people using it (if the 2 people on either side aren't too large )

It's like the middle seat in 3+2 trains, certainly on Networkers they are well used. People like to sit, and many prefer a squashed seat to standing.

 

[computerSaysNo]

If all the lower deck seats are full, I regularly see people using it (if the 2 people on either side aren't too large )

It's like the middle seat in 3+2 trains, certainly on Networkers they are well used. People like to sit, and many prefer a squashed seat to standing.

In Edinburgh I find it's the opposite. I've been on buses which have had to refuse passengers as the downstairs was so packed with people standing, yet there are whole rows free upstairs.

 

[urban]

In Edinburgh I find it's the opposite. I've been on buses which have had to refuse passengers as the downstairs was so packed with people standing, yet there are whole rows free upstairs.

It's the same in most cities, in my experience. Especially in urban areas where journeys are relatively short, many people won't bother finding a seat and are happy to stand. Some people also prefer to be near the door so they can alight easily rather than trekking from upstairs.

 

[joieman]

It's the same in most cities, in my experience. Especially in urban areas where journeys are relatively short, many people won't bother finding a seat and are happy to stand. Some people also prefer to be near the door so they can alight easily rather than trekking from upstairs.

And will be less incentivised to sit down if they feel that they'll be unable to alight in a timely manner from the further reaches of the interior of the bus due to crowding downstairs near the front.

 

[urban]

And will be less incentivised to sit down if they feel that they'll be unable to alight in a timely manner from the further reaches of the interior of the bus due to crowding downstairs near the front.

Another reason I argue for dual door buses in urban areas! When there are lots of passengers standing it can be really difficult to get to the door to alight, especially when you're sitting near the back.

 

[PG]

Another reason I argue for dual door buses in urban areas! When there are lots of passengers standing it can be really difficult to get to the door to alight, especially when you're sitting near the back.

Indeed just cast back in (relatively) recent history to see crew operated buses being replaced by dual door one person operated buses (principally deckers). More recently quite a few cities had bendy buses but now they are almost extinct having fallen out of favour.

Maybe the emerging bus franchises will grasp the opportunity they have to specify dual doors?

 

[Leedsbusman]

Maybe the emerging bus franchises will grasp the opportunity they have to specify dual doors?

unlikely I suspect as most franchise authorities have built bus stations which cannot accommodate centre exits!

 

[Goldfish62]

unlikely I suspect as most franchise authorities have built bus stations which cannot accommodate centre exits!

Indeed! The unique hang-up the UK has about multi-door buses will persist indefinitely.

 

[Hyebone]

Dual-door buses will always be a problem as long as bus stops like this exist...

 

[Goldfish62]

Dual-door buses will always be a problem as long as bus stops like this exist...
View attachment 169944

Talk about an extreme example! Let's try to keep this discussion in the realms of reality!