Bus design

[joieman]

Dual-door buses will always be a problem as long as bus stops like this exist...
View attachment 169944

Transport planners seem to be stuck in the concept that every bus is going to be no longer than about twelve metres long with only one passenger door, without thought for dual-doored buses, whether imported from the capital second-hand or otherwise, or articulated buses. This in turn discourages regional operators from buying less "conventional" buses, and thus goes the vicious cycle.

 

[Hophead]

It's perfectly possible to alight from the front door at stops where the centre door has a problem.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's perfectly possible to alight from the front door at stops where the centre door has a problem.

As happens in London when a stop is blocked for whatever reason.

 

[urban]

unlikely I suspect as most franchise authorities have built bus stations which cannot accommodate centre exits!

Presumably most bus stations will have everyone either boarding or alighting, not both, so it would be fine to just use the front door.

Although it does seem Manchester & Liverpool are keeping single doors for their new buses for their franchised operations. I would love to hear their reasoning - I had assumed it was just a symptom of the commercial operators deciding to minimise fare evasion at the cost of dwell times.

 

[joieman]

It's perfectly possible to alight from the front door at stops where the centre door has a problem.

Except for in the instance of a wheelchair user. In many dual-door buses, as in London, the wheelchair ramp is in the centre door rather than the front door. This means that wheelchair users would not be able to board a dual-doored bus at many bus stations, especially those of the drive-in, reverse-out type which are usually built to accommodate only the front passenger door.

 

[Flying Snail]

Except for in the instance of a wheelchair user. In many dual-door buses, as in London, the wheelchair ramp is in the centre door rather than the front door. This means that wheelchair users would not be able to board a dual-doored bus at many bus stations, especially those of the drive-in, reverse-out type which are usually built to accommodate only the front passenger door.

Wheelchair access by the middle door is TfL spec, it is not a requirement of dual door buses to have this.

Dublin has switched to dual door double deckers in the last decade, almost the entire fleet is now dual door with the rear being exit only. Wheelchair access is at the front door and there are still lots of stops across the network without space to accommodate both doors, drivers just open the front.

 

[Hophead]

Except for in the instance of a wheelchair user. In many dual-door buses, as in London, the wheelchair ramp is in the centre door rather than the front door. This means that wheelchair users would not be able to board a dual-doored bus at many bus stations, especially those of the drive-in, reverse-out type which are usually built to accommodate only the front passenger door.

Which is why the wheelchair access is at the front on provincial buses - the operators have thought about this, you know. London has only one drive-in, reverse-out bus station, as far as I'm aware. At the recently reopened Cromwell Road bus station in Kingston, a stop has been provided near the exit which is intended for use by wheelchair users, though I hope space can be found for them once everyone else has boarded.

 

[Hyebone]

At the recently reopened Cromwell Road bus station in Kingston, a stop has been provided near the exit which is intended for use by wheelchair users, though I hope space can be found for them once everyone else has boarded.

Doesn't this go against any discrimination laws? Why should a wheelchair user be forced to use a stop at the other end of the bus station?

 

[Hophead]

Doesn't this go against any discrimination laws? Why should a wheelchair user be forced to use a stop at the other end of the bus station?

I would have thought that TfL, of all organisations, would be on top of this. The previous incarnation of the bus station had a similar saw-tooth stand arrangement, but I don't know how wheelchair users would have been accommodated then.

 

[Goldfish62]

Doesn't this go against any discrimination laws? Why should a wheelchair user be forced to use a stop at the other end of the bus station?

Given there's been this arrangement at Cromwell Road ever since wheelchair accessible buses were introduced it's clearly not an issue.

I would have thought that TfL, of all organisations, would be on top of this. The previous incarnation of the bus station had a similar saw-tooth stand arrangement, but I don't know how wheelchair users would have been accommodated then.

Exactly the same way as they are now.

 

[K4016td]

I wonder provincial operators bosses skin crawl when they look at Czech SOR buses that as standard have as many as 4 doors across 12m standard length bus eg. in the below link from Wiki Commons.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...le:sOR_NB_12_číslo_1326,_Modrá_škola_(01).jpg

 

[Hyebone]

I wonder provincial operators bosses skin crawl when they look at Czech SOR buses that as standard have as many as 4 doors across 12m standard length bus eg. in the below link from Wiki Commons.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...le:sOR_NB_12_číslo_1326,_Modrá_škola_(01).jpg

Christ wept.

At what point does the seats lost make it uneconomical?

 

[urban]

Christ wept.

At what point does the seats lost make it uneconomical?

Less seats means you can cram in more standing people, so it's probably higher capacity than a one-door single deck UK bus. Obviously it wouldn't be suited to long journeys but it's highly efficient for urban transport.

 

[joieman]

I wonder provincial operators bosses skin crawl when they look at Czech SOR buses that as standard have as many as 4 doors across 12m standard length bus eg. in the below link from Wiki Commons.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...le:sOR_NB_12_číslo_1326,_Modrá_škola_(01).jpg

They probably look at it and think it belongs on the apron of an airport!

 

[GusB]

I wonder provincial operators bosses skin crawl when they look at Czech SOR buses that as standard have as many as 4 doors across 12m standard length bus eg. in the below link from Wiki Commons.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...le:sOR_NB_12_číslo_1326,_Modrá_škola_(01).jpg

I honestly don't think that the bosses of provincial operators are particularly bothered about having 4 doors on a bus. Two doors would be overkill on the routes around here.

Less seats means you can cram in more standing people, so it's probably higher capacity than a one-door single deck UK bus. Obviously it wouldn't be suited to long journeys but it's highly efficient for urban transport.

The whole dual-door discussion has been done to death on many occasions on this forum. I accept that it's useful in urban areas where

• there are frequent stops where people both board and alight
• passengers are doing short journeys and don't mind standing for a short period of time

However, when services go out of town and journey times go above a certain limit, there's an expectation that one should be able to sit down. My local route is largely picking up going into town and either dropping off at the bus station, or a stop or two beforehand; the reverse is true on the outbound journey. Seating capacity is already lower because of the need to adhere to accessibilty regulations, so adding an extra door is going to reduce that capacity further when there is absolutely no need for it.

I spent my student days in Aberdeen where dual-door vehicles were the norm. At that point there was still a distinction between "town" and "country" operators but those lines became blurred as privatisation and consolidation happened. Operators want to be able to move vehicles around as required and having single-door vehicles makes this much easier. Dual doors cost more to buy in the first place and, cost more to maintain and eventually will incur a cost to remove to rebuild when the dual-door functionality is no longer required.

Transport for London may mandate the use of dual-door vehicles, but it doesn't have to deal with the operational headache of what to do with those buses when they need to be cascaded.

 

[Goldfish62]

Transport for London may mandate the use of dual-door vehicles, but it doesn't have to deal with the operational headache of what to do with those buses when they need to be cascaded.

There are plenty of ex-London dual door buses operating around the country, interchangeably with single door buses on a wide variety of different routes. Some operators use the centre door, some don't.

 

[PG]

Christ wept.

At what point does the seats lost make it uneconomical?

Surprisingly it has 36 seats, not much less than a 12m single door bus manages in the UK.

 

[Mikey C]

I honestly don't think that the bosses of provincial operators are particularly bothered about having 4 doors on a bus. Two doors would be overkill on the routes around here.


The whole dual-door discussion has been done to death on many occasions on this forum. I accept that it's useful in urban areas where

• there are frequent stops where people both board and alight
• passengers are doing short journeys and don't mind standing for a short period of time

However, when services go out of town and journey times go above a certain limit, there's an expectation that one should be able to sit down. My local route is largely picking up going into town and either dropping off at the bus station, or a stop or two beforehand; the reverse is true on the outbound journey. Seating capacity is already lower because of the need to adhere to accessibilty regulations, so adding an extra door is going to reduce that capacity further when there is absolutely no need for it.

I spent my student days in Aberdeen where dual-door vehicles were the norm. At that point there was still a distinction between "town" and "country" operators but those lines became blurred as privatisation and consolidation happened. Operators want to be able to move vehicles around as required and having single-door vehicles makes this much easier. Dual doors cost more to buy in the first place and, cost more to maintain and eventually will incur a cost to remove to rebuild when the dual-door functionality is no longer required.

Transport for London may mandate the use of dual-door vehicles, but it doesn't have to deal with the operational headache of what to do with those buses when they need to be cascaded.

Dual door buses on urban routes are faster. Thus customers get a speedier journey, AND fewer buses and drivers are needed to operate a route. The cost implications aren't all negative.

 

[joieman]

Another thing I just remembered: older buses that I rode on as a child had dimpled poles, but nowadays the poles are smooth. I wonder what the rationale for this change was.

(And now you get buses with nearly no poles at all!)

 

[LiviCrazy]

Surprisingly it has 36 seats, not much less than a 12m single door bus manages in the UK.

Can’t imagine that would be particularly pleasant in a British winter. Howling winds and sideways rain blowing into the bus at every stop with up to four doors opening.

 

[PG]

Can’t imagine that would be particularly pleasant in a British winter. Howling winds and sideways rain blowing into the bus at every stop with up to four doors opening.

I can't imagine any UK operator wanting four doors, we are renowned for our tolerance of queues, even to get off the bus!

 

[JD2168]

The problem I have always had with dual doors is they reduce the amount of seats on the lower part of the floor or deck that are available to disabled & elderly passengers, made almost even more of an issue with wheelchair space requirements. One solution is a longer wheelbase but then you have issues of can the bus get round tighter routes.

Also a number of bus stations either drive in, reverse out or pull up & drive away are designed for one door access. Also you can have issues with certain passengers messing around with the doors & trying to sneak on without paying.

 

[Mikey C]

The problem I have always had with dual doors is they reduce the amount of seats on the lower part of the floor or deck that are available to disabled & elderly passengers, made almost even more of an issue with wheelchair space requirements. One solution is a longer wheelbase but then you have issues of can the bus get round tighter routes.

Also a number of bus stations either drive in, reverse out or pull up & drive away are designed for one door access. Also you can have issues with certain passengers messing around with the doors & trying to sneak on without paying.

In London it's incredibly rare that someone tries to sneak on via the middle door. I've not seen it for years.

 

[Goldfish62]

In London it's incredibly rare that someone tries to sneak on via the middle door. I've not seen it for years.

Yes, can't recall if I've ever seen that happen.

The problem I have always had with dual doors is they reduce the amount of seats on the lower part of the floor or deck that are available to disabled & elderly passengers, made almost even more of an issue with wheelchair space requirements.

It's always a compromise. I've driven both in London and I know which I prefer for keeping things moving and it's not the buses with one door.

Of course, as is usual on these forums this thread is going way OTT in that as soon as someone advocates dual door buses on busy urban routes someone uses goes off on a tangent using the theoretical example of a four door bus on a rural route to put the case that dual door buses must not ever be considered on any route.

As I've said before the UK outside London is probably unique on the planet with its hang-up about buses with more than one door. Has the rest of the planet got it wrong?

Can’t imagine that would be particularly pleasant in a British winter. Howling winds and sideways rain blowing into the bus at every stop with up to four doors opening.

More pleasant than a Czech winter, which are far harsher.

 

[Mikey C]

It's always a compromise. I've driven both in London and I know which I prefer for keeping things moving and it's not the buses with one door.

Of course, as is usual on these forums this thread is going way OTT in that as soon as someone advocates dual door buses on busy urban routes someone uses goes off on a tangent using the theoretical example of a four door bus on a rural route to put the case that dual door buses must not ever be considered on any route.

As I've said before the UK outside London is probably unique on the planet with its hang-up about buses with more than one door. Has the rest of the planet got it wrong?

I was on a rammed bus in Leeds on Friday which desperately needed a middle door, as I struggled my way to the front to get off.

 

[urban]

Dual door buses on urban routes are faster. Thus customers get a speedier journey, AND fewer buses and drivers are needed to operate a route. The cost implications aren't all negative.

Agreed, any potential losses from fare evasion are easily outweighed by the faster journeys. There is really no valid justification for single doors on urban routes, it's baffling. I do hope one of the franchised operations will see sense one day and make the change.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In the provinces, it's not about fare evasion. It is, as @GusB states, that dual door buses cost more to purchase, they cost more to maintain, they lose seated capacity (which is important as average journey duration is longer) and especially when those on the bottom deck are more likely to be elderly.

Now amazingly enough, bus managers are actually aware of buses with dual doors. I'm sure they may even have travelled on some. However, they will also have done the maths and worked out that for the relatively limited benefit on a select number of routes in provincial cities, any benefit is outweighed by the downsides.

 

[Goldfish62]

I was on a rammed bus in Leeds on Friday which desperately needed a middle door, as I struggled my way to the front to get off.

Yes, it's absurd that buses on busy urban routes outside London are almost universally single door, but it's never going to change.

At least Brighton and Hove had the foresight to order dual buses for its busy university routes. Good for them. Shame they didn't follow it through on later orders.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Christ wept.

At what point does the seats lost make it uneconomical?

Having just been to Prague I can confirm that they can swallow a crowd very easily. Most passengers will be standing, but European transport tends to work differently to the UK version. You might be on the bus for a few minutes then change to a tram or an underground train, whereas we expect to go from a to b without changing. So Czech city buses are designed for short journeys and loading/unloading quickly.

Another thing I just remembered: older buses that I rode on as a child had dimpled poles, but nowadays the poles are smooth. I wonder what the rationale for this change was.

(And now you get buses with nearly no poles at all!)

IIRC the dimpled poles were designed to give better grip, however if you caught hold of one at speed, such as when you were being thrown down the bus, you tended to rip the skin off your hand. I believe that's why they fell out of favour. Plus they looked terrible after a few years as the paint tended to wear off the area people grabbed leaving rusty metal showing.

 

[Goldfish62]

IIRC the dimpled poles were designed to give better grip, however if you caught hold of one at speed, such as when you were being thrown down the bus, you tended to rip the skin off your hand. I believe that's why they fell out of favour. Plus they looked terrible after a few years as the paint tended to wear off the area people grabbed leaving rusty metal showing.

Dirt traps as well.

TfL specifies a "matt crackle" finish, which is a very slightly rough finish. Apparently it helps those who have a weak grip, such as arthritis sufferers.