British Transport Police - Rail Enthusiasts

[dcmbarton]

Sounds a good idea to me

 

[scotsman]

I think it's a great idea, however I think there is potential for abuse by some holders who would think they were "untouchable"

 

[Bonemaster]

A good idea ..... with only one draw back, overzealous staff and BTP, along with draconian and inconsistently applied "signing-in" guidelines over the last 10 years, along with a handful of other factors, have seen rail enthusiasts migrate away from many of the stations that would benefit from such a scheme, as such I cant see enough of a presence from signed up participants to make it worth while, or the worth the cost of setting up in today's tough economic climate.

 

[RailwayWatch]

I would like to first apologise for not responding to the posts sooner, my shift commitments have prevented me from attending to this sooner.

Can I say how pleased I am by the responses to my original post; your support and comments are appreciated and helpful. I would like to respond to them by explaining a little more about the intention for this scheme.

This scheme, whilst still being proposed, is designed to include the Rail enthusiast community, you present an alternative and attentive resource on the Railway It is not intended that membership of this scheme means you actively tackle crime, but that it is more like the Neighbourhood Watch and Airport Watch schemes currently in place where members report suspicious and criminal activity directly to the Police. I would not recommend any person tackle criminals but to call 999 and report the incident to Police. Also, this scheme is about being vigilant to all suspicious activities, it is impossible to say what a terrorist looks like but it is important to remain aware of suspicious activity that might be connected to terrorism.

I appreciate your comments regarding this being a London Based scheme, at this time, we are looking to Pilot this within the BTP London North Area with a view that it could become a national scheme. (please see our website for this map (http://www.btp.police.uk/about_us/areas/london_north.aspx)

I am aware that in the past, Rail Enthusiasts have been challenged or prevented from photographing while on Railway Property, I hope that this scheme and the use of visible lanyards and cards will help create a more cooperative relationship between Enthusiasts, the Railway and the Police and that membership would show that you were committed to keeping the Railways safe.

This would not be a card that you have to possess to take pictures, and having an ID card and Lanyard would not provide any extra access, privilege or authority but it would show who you were to Rail Staff, showing you are part of a scheme aimed at making the railways safe environments and taking part in a lawful pastime. Providing personal details to Police to be a member would mean that, in the event of serious incident or crime, we could appeal directly to members for information.

Thank you for taking the time to respond

 

[Greenback]

Well, despite my concerns, I'm certainly all in favour of a more cooperative relationship between enthusiasts, the police and railway staff!

A trial is the best way forward, to see what actually happens in practice. Good luck!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I think I'm with Greenback. I hope it works well!

 

[W-on-Sea]

Indeed, I was a bit wary at first - but this all sounds thoroughly sensible

 

[scotsman]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I think it's worth putting a disclaimer "This person is not acting in capacity as railway staff, they are not permitted etc...." - nonetheless, a fantastic scheme that will definitely work and build relationships with the BTP.

It's worth pointing out to other forum members that not providing details to a police officer when questioned is an offence under Scots Law

 

[allticketspls]

An excellent idea and I can only see the TOCS embracing it as well. Most stations I have visited/worked at are appreciative of extra pairs of eyes although there are some that HATE enthusiasts and photographers.

If you require guinea pigs for the trial, count me in.

 

[lm321412]

Yes, this will be quite handy, especially as somewhere like London Liverpool Street the Network Rail Office does not open on weekends, leaving 'certain' National Express staff to dicate the rules of Photography at their pleasure.

Normally though, I have very enjoyable times with photography at London and would be interested in helping pilot this scheme.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I, too, am very interested in this scheme.



And it is also good, I feel, to have aa BTP oficer on this forum as there are quite a few discussions every now and again where input of the BTP's view would be very much valued.

 

[Flamingo]

It sounds like a useful scheme.

However, can all passes / lanyards have "Not Valid For Travel" on them somewhere, in large bright letters? I can see it only being a matter of weeks (if not days) before someone is trying to use one for free travel!

 

[wintonian]

It sounds like a useful scheme.

However, can all passes / lanyards have "Not Valid For Travel" on them somewhere, in large bright letters? I can see it only being a matter of weeks (if not days) before someone is trying to use one for free travel!

Spoil sport. But yes a very good point even if it does only apply to the minority.

I am intrigued by this idea and think a trial would be a good thing as it needs to tried out to see how it will work in practice - hopefully it will.

 

[Oracle]

I think something along the same lines has been started in the aviation enthusiasts community at airports. Southampton Airport seems to have been involved. Seems a great idea to me!

 

[wintonian]

How exactly does the Airport Watch scheme work in practice?

 

[The Snap]

Perhaps doing major hub stations out from London, for example (ECML) York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Waverley, Glasgow Central etc.

Perhaps Manchester Piccadilly would be a wise idea too?

 

[jopsuk]

How much vetting of applicants for these cards would there be? Seems to me that if I was a terrorist, I'd be interested in getting one of these cards...

 

[HST Power]

Perhaps Manchester Piccadilly would be a wise idea too? I suspect that station is at far more risk than the likes of York...

Manchester Piccadilly is also known to be a station used frequently by criminals. On a great number of occasions I've seen Police programmes where the railway is followed and Piccadilly always seems to come up as a drug courier hotspot. I do believe that the Police have a fair number of sniffer dogs recruited in Manchester to tackle the problem.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I think it would be an incredibly good idea, not so much the actual issuing of cards to photographers etc. but the fact that the TOCs would have to inform their staff about it and admit that railfans are permitted to photograph trains and stations. So if any railfans or photographers are harassed by a member of the platform staff then they could legitimately complain to the management.

My main concern is that such a scheme would require an annual fee to cover admin and the cost of the cards, which I for one would have no concerns paying (after all £20 for a year for example is no more than spent on a rover ticket for a day on many preserved lines) but a lot of people might object to it and without a critical mass of users, such a scheme might become completely useless - are the BTP going to start clearing stations of all non-pass bearing photographers?

What would be essential is to get the enthusiasts magazines onside and incorporate some additional benefits that would assuage the cost of the pass, for example allowing the holder to use it in place of a platform ticket on barriered stations would be the obvious one and perhaps co-ordinating with some of the TOCs to offer MPD and Yard photo days, only available to pass holders.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How much vetting of applicants for these cards would there be? Seems to me that if I was a terrorist, I'd be interested in getting one of these cards...

The issue of these cards would be best administered by the SIA who already administer the scheme for the Secuity Industry who includes security officers and accredited door staff. There are full training courses to have to be passed (3-4 days) at Standard level and there are even higher level of courses to be sat, for members such as Door Staff, etc who have to receive the correct training for dealing with members of the public.

There are full Criminal Record checks carried out on every applicant and there is a stage higher than this known as the Enhanced Criminal Record check, which are applicable to people such as teachers and caretaking staff who have access to children and to vulnerable people during the course of their work.

The standard level Criminal Record Check covers details of all convictions cautions, reprimands and warnings held on the Police National Computer (PNC).

The enhanced level Criminal Record Check covers:-
(1) Details as the Standard level check, described above.
(2) Information from the Protection of Children Act (POCA).
(3) Information from the Protection of Vulnerable Adults List (POVA).
(4) Information held by the DCSF under section 142 of the Education Act 2002.

There are previous emplloyment records to be vetted as part of this process, which takes time, but is very stringent. No card, being a license to operate, is issued until all steps of the vetting process are gone through. The cost of the Standard card is quite an amount and the price of the higher security checks are more stringent, reflecting an even higher price. Details of the current charges can be obtained from the SIA website.

The British Transport Police would have to be involved if this accredited system were to be introduced.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The standard level Criminal Record Check covers details of all convictions cautions, reprimands and warnings held on the Police National Computer (PNC).

The question here is, which of these aspects is relevant to letting spotters onto platforms. Vile as it might be to consider, I see no relevance in the protection of children act etc in this application. If the main reason of the cards is to stop the terrorist bogeyman then nothing that a CRB check could find would really be relevant.

 

[michael769]

I also say that going through a full records check would deter people from getting involved in a voluntary scheme like this. CRB checks cost money and how many enthusiast would want to pay, when the main benefit is gained by the police and rail industry.

FWIW, I don't think a scheme like this is proposed to provide any extra access over and above what any member of the public can gain, and thus I see no reason to vet members.

 

[Greenback]

Isn't everyone getting a bit carried away? This is just a scheme to help to identify enthusiasts who might be spending a bit of time in the public areas of railway stations. The possession of a badge, or lanyard, or whatever, will not give the holder any special rights or privileges, but will merely prove useful in helping them to report naything unusual they have seen or witnessed whilst going about their hobby.

I see no need for stringent security or background checks, and no reason why a terrorist would find it remotely useful to be a member.

 

[IanXC]

I think the suggestion that the benefit to the holder of the pass being not being required to purchase a platform ticket would be a very good plan.

Perhaps the passes could be set up to be able to swipe through barriers too?

 

[causton]

Perhaps the passes could be set up to be able to swipe through barriers too?

A ticket that will open any gate, full stop... sounds like a fare-dodgers' dream especially round here where you rarely ever get checked on a train!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Isn't everyone getting a bit carried away? This is just a scheme to help to identify enthusiasts who might be spending a bit of time in the public areas of railway stations. The possession of a badge, or lanyard, or whatever, will not give the holder any special rights or privileges, but will merely prove useful in helping them to report naything unusual they have seen or witnessed whilst going about their hobby.

I see no need for stringent security or background checks, and no reason why a terrorist would find it remotely useful to be a member.

Quite. The pass doesn't need to open, or do anything. It should just identify people.

 

[HST Power]

A ticket that will open any gate, full stop... sounds like a fare-dodgers' dream especially round here where you rarely ever get checked on a train!

On FCC trains being checked is non existent! Though the barriers at Letchworth are always functioning, so I personally wouldn't try and pull anything!

 

[bluenoxid]

What's the point in paying for a lanyard then. I can do you a run of high quality leaflets much cheaper than that, with the information you need to get across.

EDIT

How much information are you going to get on it with all the disclaimers that are going to have to be put on it.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

What's the point in paying for a lanyard then. I can do you a run of high quality leaflets much cheaper than that.

Because not only is the BTP getting a network of people keeping an eye out at major stations, it is recognising these peoples abilities and making them visible to staff. Probably the most important though is that they are building bridges with the community.

 

[Flamingo]

I had a guy the other day, pretending he was staff, with a very visibly displayed TOC lanyard. Pity all that was hanging from it was his collage ID. I took it back from him, as it was company property, therefore it was stolen. Pity I couldn't get the high-vis drivers bag he was carrying as well, but there was no railway logo on it.