RMT Strike (Avanti) February

[londonteacher]

Thankfully I’m out of the country so won’t be affected, but I’d much rather have a train with no TM at all than a cancelled train.

But I’m pretty sure that Avanti is not DOO so without a TM there is no train.

 

[Cross City]

No of course, but it still industrial action and what it involves has to be declared.

As if doing your job as you're contracted to do so requires you to give your employer 2 week's notice.

 

[Harpo]

I suggest the train operator stops providing a catering service and replaces the kitchen and the shop with more seats so they only need one member of onboard staff apart from the driver on each train, converts more first class seats to standard class so they can carry more passengers and concentrates on just providing reliable transport for rail passengers.

Luckily we’ve just had a thread about speculative vs fantasy discussions.

 

[dk1]

Thankfully I’m out of the country so won’t be affected, but I’d much rather have a train with no TM at all than a cancelled train.

No Train Manager equals no train.

 

[MalaiseForever]

But I’m pretty sure that Avanti is not DOO so without a TM there is no train.

No Train Manager equals no train.

Yeah... I know. That’s why I said I’d rather they ran without them!

It’s very rare I have a good experience with an avanti TM. They usually sit in their little office watching videos or having loud unprofessional conversations with other staff members.

 

[londonteacher]

Yeah... I know. That’s why I said I’d rather they ran without them!

It’s very rare I have a good experience with an avanti TM. They usually sit in their little office watching videos or having loud unprofessional conversations with other staff members.

But even so they do an amazing job in safety critical situations and disruption.

That said, and not though it matters to the union and its members, but I’m not sure that this strike action will gather much support from the public. We are too used to disruption. However the political impact on the current government will be interesting - accept the terms and be accused of pandering to their union friends, reject the terms and be accused of being no different to the last lot when this continues long term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said, and not though it matters to the union and its members, but I’m not sure that this strike action will gather much support from the public.

I certainly don't support mucking up the Christmas period over something like pay. The message it gives is pretty unpleasant. Leave it until mid January.

If it was about safety I could be persuaded but it isn't.

 

[ivanhoe]

The Industry (employers & employees)need to get their Act together. A Labour Government will not tolerate this for much longer. Times are hard, and investment, which is required on an annual basis is at risk. It will be easy for any Government to blame all of this on the rail unions concerned, even though this is rarely the truth. If we are saying, we need extra staff to cover rest day working , it isn’t going to happen. However, a permanent cut in services is always a possibility. The Railway often overestimates its nationwide support. For the average person in the street, they’re more concerned about the cuts to their 82C or 127. (Bus)

National Express, Flixbus et al, must be rubbing their hands in glee and that is not what we really want to see. Let’s try and wish for an end to this sabre rattling , negotiate what is possible and accept that you will not always get what you want and there is a limit to what the Public will pay for and also a limit for what any Government will support for the railway. Avanti won’t be paying for this out of their own pockets and neither would a fully pledged GB Rail. It’s the passengers and the rest of the Country.

How about negotiating an Italian style system, where a minimal service will operate on strike days. I suspect that’s one for the speculative thread!

 

[Jamesrob637]

So this will be called off, at least for the 22nd and 23rd, as fewer than 14 days' notice?

 

[Adam Williams]

So this will be called off, at least for the 22nd and 23rd, as fewer than 14 days' notice?

We don't know how much notice was given to the employer.

As passengers, it is not us that are entitled to the notice.

 

[Starmill]

So this will be called off, at least for the 22nd and 23rd, as fewer than 14 days' notice?

Avanti may well have received the minimum notice.

 

[Tractor2018]

The Railway often overestimates its nationwide support.

We really don't. Or at least the staff don't. We're conditioned to the spite we receive, thanks to the media conditioned perception by others.

National Express, Flixbus et al, must be rubbing their hands in glee

Here we go again.

"People are done with the railway now. Forcing people into cars. Buses are cheaper and more reliable. Rail workers like turkeys voting for Christmas. Etc, etc."

Just had several years of this commenting. Yet despite that an acceptable outcome was achieved.

there is a limit to what the Public will pay for and also a limit for what any Government will support for the railway. Avanti won’t be paying for this out of their own pockets and neither would a fully pledged GB Rail. It’s the passengers and the rest of the Country.

Who paid for managers enhancements for doing TM duties? The very same people. That seems to be ok though. Groan.

How about negotiating an Italian style system, where a minimal service will operate on strike days. I suspect that’s one for the speculative thread!

Have you been under a rock for the last few years?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Really? What do you think that the strike is about? Why do you think that the TMs voted for action?

Sorry but TM's choosing to strike just before Christmas is wrong - at least wait til January.

I thought the strikes were finished with.

 

[dangie]

We don't know how much notice was given to the employer.

As passengers, it is not us that are entitled to the notice.

I disagree. It’s passengers who use the trains. It’s passengers who make plans for as and when to use the trains. They are entitled to exactly the same strike notice as the rail company. That’s my thought anyway.

 

[Topological]

It is not the media that whip up anti-union sentiment when the workers strike. Keep denying the ability of the population to think independently and you'll go the same way of the UKs EU membership or Corbyn. The narrative that the population are too stupid to think for themselves is harmful.

Anyone is capable of seeing that these strikes are designed to hurt normal people. I understand the peaks are not what they were, but working day strikes would have been possible.

I get the archaic rules that govern the railways. I get that many current working conditions are inconsistent. But I also get that people think for themselves and are not just sheep to Murdoch/Musk/whoever. This strike is just wrong.

(I should add that I am not taking any trains after Friday until 15th January. There is no self-interest in wanting the strikes cancelled. Thankfully I can do all my festive travel by car)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree. It’s passengers who use the trains. It’s passengers who make plans for as and when to use the trains. They are entitled to exactly the same strike notice as the rail company. That’s my thought anyway.

It's Avanti who are to blame for not telling us sooner.

 

[Harpo]

Once upon a time, there was a thing for passenger timetables called T-12 regulated by ORR. Oh, and the 12 was weeks not hours.

 

[Krokodil]

How about negotiating an Italian style system, where a minimal service will operate on strike days

The last government tried that. It was an utter flop.

I disagree. It’s passengers who use the trains. It’s passengers who make plans for as and when to use the trains. They are entitled to exactly the same strike notice as the rail company. That’s my thought anyway.

Your thought doesn‘t matter. The law says that the union must give the employer 14 days' notice. When the employer decides to pass on that information to customers is up to them.

 

[Carlisle]

The last government tried that. It was an utter flop.

Rightly or wrongly we don’t know that given DFT never instructed any TOCs to apply the minimum service laws despite some evidence of them working in other countries.

 

[Starmill]

This strike is just wrong.

I hate to say it but what did you actually expect? This has been the modus operandi for rather a long time now. TPE conductors took strike action every Sunday for months. Northern every Saturday for months. Then there were strikes coinciding with the Commonwealth Games and Taylor Swift or other major concerts or race days. Christmas shopping weekends have very often been affected in recent years. And countless other examples of RMT action on peak holiday travel dates.

 

[Topological]

I hate to say it but what did you actually expect? This has been the modus operandi for rather a long time now. TPE conductors took strike action every Sunday for months. Northern every Saturday for months. Then there were strikes coinciding with the Commonwealth Games and Taylor Swift or other major concerts or race days. Christmas shopping weekends have very often been affected in recent years. And countless other examples of RMT action on peak holiday travel dates.

It is not about what I expect. Expect unions to act selfishly and they do, unions are there to serve themselves by definition. It doesn't make striking on days when the victims are those travelling to see their families for Christmas right.

I also think all of the previous strikes were unfortunate choices of dates as well.

My point that individuals are perfectly capable of making judgements of their own stands.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I hate to say it but what did you actually expect? This has been the modus operandi for rather a long time now. TPE conductors took strike action every Sunday for months. Northern every Saturday for months. Then there were strikes coinciding with the Commonwealth Games and Taylor Swift or other major concerts or race days. Christmas shopping weekends have very often been affected in recent years. And countless other examples of RMT action on peak holiday travel dates.

Just because it's happened before doesn't make it morally acceptable.

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm sorry but as someone who largely supported the ongoing railstrikes prior to the agreements - this action seems purely targeted at families and normal working people and I cannot remotely support it. This has ruined plans for a night away in Glasgow with my 10 yr old son prior to Xmas. I recognise the issues with RDW agreements and that Sundays should be inside the working week, but calling strikes in the 2 days next to Xmas is cynical and deliberate in the extreme. Alienating public support right now is deeply stupid and unwise for the unions. No reason why the strikes couldnt have been called for January.

As posted upthread, there's a good chance the action will be called off so it might not be wise to cancel your plans just yet.

 

[Harpo]

Industrial action is a negotiating tool. Withdrawing labour on a quiet holiday day when very few want to travel isn’t going to achieve much.

 

[Krokodil]

Rightly or wrongly we don’t know that given DFT never instructed any TOCs to apply the minimum service laws despite some evidence of them working in other countries.

It was tried. LNER were going to implement it. So the union simply added a load of extra strike days (so much more disruption than a single day all-out strike, for no more pay lost) to compensate. LNER chickened out.

 

[Starmill]

Just because it's happened before doesn't make it morally acceptable.

I wasn't arguing it was moral, I have explained already I'm not able to comment because there is so little information in the public domain. Are you comfortable arguing its "morally unacceptable"?

 

[Topological]

As posted upthread, there's a good chance the action will be called off so it might not be wise to cancel your plans just yet.

That would be ok if cancelled action resulted in services being restored, but we know that does not happen. When past strikes were cancelled the service was skeletal at best.

Presenting cancellations of announced strikes as anything other than a mechanism to get pay for strike days is a misnoma.

I would of course be happy in a world where diagrams, allocations etc were all as flexible as they are in a supermarket. The railway is not that flexible.

Once a strike is called publically it is called. The bed is made.

 

[Tractor2018]

Rightly or wrongly we don’t know that given DFT never instructed any TOCs to apply the minimum service laws despite some evidence of them working in other countries.

From memory, didn't LNER try to implement them. They were promptly issued further strike dates and just as promptly withdrew their implementation of minimum service levels.

That's my recollection anyway.

 

[Topological]

I wasn't arguing it was moral, I have explained already I'm not able to comment because there is so little information in the public domain. Are you comfortable arguing its "morally unacceptable"?

The only thing that would stop me making the argument is if the strike was about something which was going to have a negative effect on health, or a pay reduction. Neither are true.

Working rest days, pay, losing free travel, reduction in training requirements etc are all serious, but they are not immoral.

 

[12LDA28C]

How about negotiating an Italian style system, where a minimal service will operate on strike days. I suspect that’s one for the speculative thread!

You're aware of course that the previous Government pushed legislation through Parliament to bring in Minimum Service Levels (MSLs) on strike days? And what the outcome was when they tried to enforce it?