RMT Strike (Avanti) February

[Topological]

Other people have already tried to explain to you nicely that your personal criteria aren't the ones by which everyone else is necessarily judging. Unfortunately re-stating your criteria isn't going to make them more relevant to others.

Other people should judge on their own criteria. Those are my rationale for concluding that there is nothing about this strike that justifies choosing dates which hurt as many as the chosen dates do.

The purpose of a forum is to put forward opinions. People can agree/disagree as they so wish. I put my rationale so people can reflect on that, ignore, or contend. I do not do it to convert people to my thinking.

Unlike those who think people blindly follow the media, I do not believe that the written word has such power.

 

[Horizon22]

Sorry, I think that we all have responsibilities to wider society. I cannot think of many decisions we make that allow us to forfeit our responsibilities to society.

Okay and do you have those responsibilities through your employment? I agree you should be a decent member of society but saying that you owe something to society through being employed in a certain role at a certain company is an odd take.

 

[Topological]

Okay and do you have those responsibilities through your employment? I agree you should be a decent member of society but saying that you owe something to society through being employed in a certain role at a certain company is an odd take.

Yes, I would say we do have wider responsibilities as academics, though perhaps not in the way that the railway does.

I certainly consider very carefully whether striking will negatively impact the "customer" and I am not aware of any of my colleagues calculating strikes to have the maximal possible impact. We usually strike mid-teaching period in a way that won't impact the students too much. Exam periods are the most impact on the "customer", but I cannot imagine a situation where we would strike for those.

To be clear I do not want this to be seen as any intention to draw links between the challenges involved in university lecturing relative to working on the railways, they are different jobs. Likewise, no comparisons are being made between students and families travelling home for Christmas.

 

[Tractor2018]

the railways are really losing the goodwill of the people

Been hearing this since time immemorial. It's chronically tedious. And now illogical - it's been going on so long when can we declare it lost, or if it's lost how can it still be being lost?

 

[ianBR]

These are the same train managers who are paid 50k to generally sit in their little office and do nothing on most trips.

Avanti should train up enough managers in their office to be able to cover any future strikes by train managers.

 

[Tractor2018]

These are the same train managers who are paid 50k to generally sit in their little office and do nothing on most trips.

Avanti should train up enough managers in their office to be able to cover any future strikes by train managers.

Uhm, that's a contributing factor in how this arose?

And your proposed solution is to pay managers more, to do less than TM's.

 

[weeklycommuter]

They don’t make those choices. The number of train managers to be employed is a DfT decision.

I assume it is also a Government decision whether to change the offer to the RMT and the RMT General Secretary should really refer to the Government not Avanti in the following press release?

Avanti train managers to strike after overwhelming rejection of rest day proposals

Train Managers at Avanti West Coast will take strike action after overwhelmingly rejecting the company’s inadequate proposals on rest day working arrangements.

www.rmt.org.uk

RMT General Secretary Mick Lynch said: “Avanti West Coast’s proposals have been decisively rejected by our Train Managers, sending a clear message to management that the current arrangements are unacceptable.

"It’s time for Avanti to put forward serious proposals that reflect the vital contribution of our Train Managers to the railway.

 

[43066]

I assume it is also a Government decision whether to change the offer to the RMT and the RMT General Secretary should really refer to the Government not Avanti in the following press release?

No, because the action is being taken against the employer. The union cannot strike against the government, even though they may be calling the shots.

For the record, to ensure balance, and to show I don’t always support the union side in these matters, I’m not at all sure they should have done this in the run up to Xmas. It’s going to screw a lot of people over - fair enough during the national dispute, because needs must, and we were all protecting our Ts and Cs. However, this is something different, and it comes across as a little gratuitous, quite frankly.

Why don’t the RMT learn to choose their battles a little better? “Mick Lynch the Christmas Grinch”, from a couple of years back, will no doubt make a comeback in the headlines.

 

[richardderby]

Been hearing this since time immemorial. It's chronically tedious. And now illogical - it's been going on so long when can we declare it lost, or if it's lost how can it still be being lost?

It's also 'chronically tedious ' that the RMT calls short notice industrial action, we seem to have had this problem every Christmas.

 

[Bald Rick]

LNER would have lost any legal action.

Legal opinion hedged bets on that. AIUI ASLEF were rather concerned about being taken to m’learned friends.
However that’s all history.

Did the staff vote for these specific dates or is the solely a RMT "Management" decision.

RMT ‘management’. Usually (but not always) based on discussions held with local reps.

It was the standing joke* in one part of the railway that we could always tell when the strike dates were going to be as the local reps booked the days off as leave a day or two before the announcement was due.

*not really a joke, but it was ironically amusing. The reps involved were not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

 

[Kev77]

Just to clear things up for forum members.
Avanti TMs work 41 hour weeks on average. In reality much more due to disruption and ammendment turns.
However leave entitlement and pension contributions are for 35 hours, 6 hours a week is essentially enforced overtime at the normal hourly rate.
If they volunteer for test day work that again is at the basic pay rate.
Due to a shortage of TMs managers who are competent are working trains to cover the some of the short fall. Those managers recieve £300 a shift for doing so.
The offer made to the TMs was time and a quarter to work rest days. The company also wanted the ticket scanning dispute to be closed if TMs agreed to the deal.
The offer was derisory and a real kick in the teeth to the staff, hence the very strong NO vote.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Just been on a Pendolino between Manchester and Crewe and the very helpful Avanti TM was sat watching TikTok on his phone for the entirety of the journey.

 

[cardfile]

Just to clear things up for forum members.
Avanti TMs work 41 hour weeks on average. In reality much more due to disruption and ammendment turns.
However leave entitlement and pension contributions are for 35 hours, 6 hours a week is essentially enforced overtime at the normal hourly rate.
If they volunteer for test day work that again is at the basic pay rate.
Due to a shortage of TMs managers who are competent are working trains to cover the some of the short fall. Those managers recieve £300 a shift for doing so.
The offer made to the TMs was time and a quarter to work rest days. The company also wanted the ticket scanning dispute to be closed if TMs agreed to the deal.
The offer was derisory and a real kick in the teeth to the staff, hence the very strong NO vote.

Thanks for the helpful explanation. I can see why the vote was so decisive!

 

[43066]

Legal opinion hedged bets on that. AIUI ASLEF were rather concerned about being taken to m’learned friends.
However that’s all history.

A most cynical take, old chap.

I don’t recall that being the case, to be fair. I seem to recall it was a straightforward escalation by ASLEF, based on their existing mandate.

not really a joke, but it was ironically amusing. The reps involved were not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Not that knowing three extra days in advance would have helped much. In a sense, so perhaps they were the sharpest? Union reps feathering their own nests comes as standard, some are more equal than others etc.

We all know who really runs the railway. It has been happening for decades, and it will be continue long after we’ve all retired. So long as the members are *generally* happy, that’s them sorted for life, so long as they keep being returned.

 

[Kev77]

Just been on a Pendolino between Manchester and Crewe and the very helpful Avanti TM was sat watching TikTok on his phone for the entirety of the journey.

So you must have been sat next to the TM for the entire journey to know this.
Trains regularly arrive late into Euston and the TM trys to turn it around and get it back out asap. Therefore there is often no break at all in a 10 plus hour day.
The snap shot you see is not the full story.

 

[43066]

Just to clear things up for forum members.
Avanti TMs work 41 hour weeks on average. In reality much more due to disruption and ammendment turns.
However leave entitlement and pension contributions are for 35 hours, 6 hours a week is essentially enforced overtime at the normal hourly rate.
If they volunteer for test day work that again is at the basic pay rate.
Due to a shortage of TMs managers who are competent are working trains to cover the some of the short fall. Those managers recieve £300 a shift for doing so.
The offer made to the TMs was time and a quarter to work rest days. The company also wanted the ticket scanning dispute to be closed if TMs agreed to the deal.
The offer was derisory and a real kick in the teeth to the staff, hence the very strong NO vote.

Thanks. This does put things into perspective.

 

[Bald Rick]

A most cynical take, old chap.

I don’t recall that being the case, to be fair. It was a straightforward escalation by ASLEF based on the existing mandate.

Probably worth a chat over a beer one day, Sir.

Not that knowing three extra days in advance would have helped much.

It helped a lot as it happened ! (in more ways than one). And did not go unnoticed by the rank and file members who lost money.

 

[43066]

Probably worth a chat over a beer one day, Sir.

I would be well up for that, actually. One to take off line and into the new year…

It helped a lot as it happened ! (in more ways than one). And did not go unnoticed by the rank and file members who lost money.

I mean surely every depot has at least one ASLEF rep with a motorboat moored on an Italian lake, and an implausibly red nose? It can’t be just mine? You have to giggle about it. They came through for the grade, and how, so we forgive them, though.

 

[Bald Rick]

I mean surely every depot has at least one ASLEF rep with a motorboat moored on an Italian lake, and an implausibly red nose? It can’t be just mine? You have to giggle about it. They came through for the grade, and how, so we forgive them, though.

This was the other brothers.

 

[43066]

This was the other brothers.

Close Brothers?

I’ve never really got into the whole “brother” thing.

 

[Ericscollar]

So is it a RD ban or strike? Or both still a bit confused

Strike, as Sundays are inside the working week for AWC TM’s.

 

[mrmartin]

Just to clear things up for forum members.
Avanti TMs work 41 hour weeks on average. In reality much more due to disruption and ammendment turns.
However leave entitlement and pension contributions are for 35 hours, 6 hours a week is essentially enforced overtime at the normal hourly rate.
If they volunteer for test day work that again is at the basic pay rate.
Due to a shortage of TMs managers who are competent are working trains to cover the some of the short fall. Those managers recieve £300 a shift for doing so.
The offer made to the TMs was time and a quarter to work rest days. The company also wanted the ticket scanning dispute to be closed if TMs agreed to the deal.
The offer was derisory and a real kick in the teeth to the staff, hence the very strong NO vote.

I see. Just so I'm clear, is the dispute on "enforcing" people to work rest days, or is it that if people volunteer they aren't getting paid enough vs the managers?

 

[Kev77]

I see. Just so I'm clear, is the dispute on "enforcing" people to work rest days, or is it that if people volunteer they aren't getting paid enough vs the managers?

It's about negotiating a reasonable offer for working rest days. The fact that managers are currently getting £300 extra whilst TMs are only receiving their normal hourly rate has really upset the grade. Their is currently no work life balance at all so the offer of time and a quarter really isn't an attractive offer to give up a valuable day off.
It is a strike as opposed to working to rule.

 

[mrmartin]

It's about negotiating a reasonable offer for working rest days. The fact that managers are currently getting £300 extra whilst TMs are only receiving their normal hourly rate has really upset the grade. Their is currently no work life balance at all so the offer of time and a quarter really isn't an attractive offer to give up a valuable day off.
It is a strike as opposed to working to rule.

But just so I'm clear, they don't have to take these days? Or do they?

 

[whoosh]

I read that as having to work a 41 hour week, but basic pay, sick pay, pensions, based on a 35 hour week. Rest Day Work in addition is voluntary.
£300 for a Manager to cover an uncovered TM turn, but less for an actual TM to work their day off to cover it seems to be the issue.

How about negotiating an Italian style system, where a minimal service will operate on strike days. I suspect that’s one for the speculative thread!

This is what the previous government attempted to push through by instigating a dispute by refusing the TOCs to have any pay talks at all for the entirety of 2022.
Which led to strikes.
Which led to "What to do about these strikes? [Have talks...?] Let's introduce Minimum Service legislation."

They then decreed that the minimum service should be 40%, because it shouldn't be less of a service than what has ran on a strike day, and 40% of trains ran on a random strike day that they (carefully) picked.
Even though, ALL of the trains that did run that (carefully picked) day were run by companies who didn't have a dispute [because they'd talked to their staff? Yes, that's right!], like Elizabeth Line, London Overground, Transport for Wales, Merseyrail, Scotrail, and also South Western Railway and C2C who hadn't yet reached their pay anniversary so weren't yet in dispute.

To reiterate - the whole reason there was such a long, prolonged, drawn out, National Railway dispute, was entirely down to the previous government throwing everything it could to deliberately instigate industrial action it could then be seen to be dealing with by passing legislation to restrict people's rights in the workplace.

I'm gobsmacked you failed to see this during the two years it was going on for!

Exactly this. And the people know full well that after their Christmas travel plans were disrupted by Covid measures in 2020 and 2021, they were disrupted by rail strikes at Christmas 2022, threatened to be disrupted by rail strikes at Christmas 2023 (fortunately didn't happen in the end, but the threat was there until 14 days before), and are now being disrupted by strikes/other action at Christmas 2024.

Look at the article today on this subject in the Independent and the tone of the handful of comments it has attracted so far. That's hardly a right-wing newspaper unsympathetic to unions.

As a passenger, I'm way past caring about the details...

The details are above, for the foundations of the poor morale which is affecting part of the industry; that Managers have been given considerable payments to work trains has its roots in covering the overtime bans during the national dispute (to circumvent the action - rather than talk); and that recruitment has not taken place at the rate it has needed to is another factor.

Just to clear things up for forum members.
Avanti TMs work 41 hour weeks on average. In reality much more due to disruption and ammendment turns.
However leave entitlement and pension contributions are for 35 hours, 6 hours a week is essentially enforced overtime at the normal hourly rate.
If they volunteer for test day work that again is at the basic pay rate.
Due to a shortage of TMs managers who are competent are working trains to cover the some of the short fall. Those managers recieve £300 a shift for doing so.
The offer made to the TMs was time and a quarter to work rest days. The company also wanted the ticket scanning dispute to be closed if TMs agreed to the deal.
The offer was derisory and a real kick in the teeth to the staff, hence the very strong NO vote.

Thankyou for explaining.

 

[Elorith]

So those catering staff can now cover train managers positions. Is that what you are suggesting?

Presumably if you don't need to pay as many caterers, that gives you the oppotunity to divert funding to spend more on employing more train managers instead.

Uhm, that's a contributing factor in how this arose?

And your proposed solution is to pay managers more, to do less than TM's.

If the RMT didn't seem to constantly go on strike, there wouldn't be any need to incentivise a large pool of managers to cover trains...

 

[MalaiseForever]

So you must have been sat next to the TM for the entire journey to know this.
Trains regularly arrive late into Euston and the TM trys to turn it around and get it back out asap. Therefore there is often no break at all in a 10 plus hour day.
The snap shot you see is not the full story.

Yes I was - that’s how I know.

regardless of any lateness (which there wasn’t), sitting in full uniform and playing TikTok out loud in front of passengers is not appropriate, particularly in a job that pays so well.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yes I was - that’s how I know.

regardless of any lateness (which there wasn’t), sitting in full uniform and playing TikTok out loud in front of passengers is not appropriate, particularly in a job that pays so well.

Pay has nothing to do with behaviour. Their pay is high because they sold all their T&C's including that of break provision. They can have their break whilst on moving train so what you may see is staff having some much needed down time.

 

[londonteacher]

From an outsiders position, and knowing that the DfT will just say no, but surely the logical solution is to employ more TMs. Therefore nobody needs to (except maybe for illness or disruption) work their rest days to run a normal service.

Alternatively, reduce the services to a number that can be ran on the staff currently employed without relying on rest day working.

 

[dk1]

Presumably if you don't need to pay as many caterers, that gives you the oppotunity to divert funding to spend more on employing more train managers instead.

That’s not how it works.