How often do rail staff read the forums?

[wogarat]

I ask this mostly out of curiosity, I’ve been looking at this forum since seeing it mentioned on Reddit a while ago. One thing I’ve been thinking is how often do rail staff read the posts here, and has it has ever made things worse for someone looking for help.

 

[Elecman]

Yes they do but we have no idea if it had any detrimental affects on any case

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yes, rail staff read the forums. If people post about "special offer" tickets here then you'll often find those "special offers" get closed very quickly.

In terms of prosecutions, I can't see how it would have a detrimental impact. There isn't anything that can be posted here that would readily be admissible in court. But it is why we recommend that posters redact any personal information before posting documentation.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In terms of prosecutions, I can't see how it would have a detrimental impact. There isn't anything that can be posted here that would readily be admissible in court. But it is why we recommend that posters redact any personal information before posting documentation

To which I would add that all the evidence points to the railway processing offenders on a mass production basis. So overwhelmingly, people who engage with the process get to settle out of court, while those cases that proceed to prosecution rely on the railway officer’s witness statement.

I don’t recall ever seeing anything attached to a prosecution that says something like ‘the internet suggests that someone caught at the same time and the same station has offended on many previous occasions: we assert that to be an admission by the defendant’. I am not a lawyer so I don’t know if something like that would be admissible in court (although I would guess not) but in practice the railway don’t attempt to go there.

So while a bit of discretion in posting is sensible ( don’t give your name or address, hide the case reference) I am pretty sure that no harm can come from asking our advice on this forum. Following the advice, of course, isn’t guaranteed to be successful.

 

[wogarat]

Yes, rail staff read the forums. If people post about "special offer" tickets here then you'll often find those "special offers" get closed very quickly.

In terms of prosecutions, I can't see how it would have a detrimental impact. There isn't anything that can be posted here that would readily be admissible in court. But it is why we recommend that posters redact any personal information before posting documentation.

That’s interesting! How quickly do they get closed?
And yes, the redacting personal information is v important. I suppose, too, people can very easily change details so nothing here could actually be genuinely relied on

 

[MrJeeves]

That’s interesting! How quickly do they get closed?

It does depend. Some pricing managers or those who work in pricing teams regularly read the forum, so sometimes these can get closed the next working day!

But it also works the other way, where people report strange behaviour such as tickets not being available when they should, and that similarly can be resolved very quickly.

Some TOCs don't appear to react to things posted on the forum at all, though, so it is a mixed bag.

 

[Gloster]

Regarding Disputes & Prosecutions, my personal opinion is that threads in this forum may occasionally help those who have made innocent mistakes. If they have handled the matter badly before posting, whether when stopped or in an initial contact, the information that the regular posters get from the OP may just tip the railway towards greater leniency on those occasions when the OP can be identified with a reasonable certainty. It might work the other way with those who have deliberately been dodging fares, particularly regular offenders or those doing their best to find a loophole, but probably less often as information is anonymised and such may be more careful about giving away identifying information. Anyway, for me, the deliberate offender should get their just deserts.

 

[Hadders]

Train company staff, up to and including chief executive level read this forum.

Regarding good value ‘loophole’ tickets these are best not publicised on the forum as it is a sure way of getting them removed or validity altered. This has happened overnight in some cases.

To be fair to the train companies, we have seen positive outcomes when ticketing and Routeing issues have been raised here. In fact, I’d say publicising something on here makes it far more likely to be read by someone who understands it and is able to do something about it than logging in with customer services.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am not a lawyer so I don’t know if something like that would be admissible in court (although I would guess not) but in practice the railway don’t attempt to go there.

It is potentially admissible, but of course the prosecutor would need to prove that the person posting was the same person as the person they were prosecuting. That's possible, as we see with people getting prosecuted for offensive posts on social media. But, realistically, nobody is going to go to that level of effort for a straightforward Byelaws or RoRA prosecution.

As you say, most of these matters are dealt with in bulk and in accordance with company policy. For some/many railway prosecutors you could simply write "Soz, LOL, here's a cheque" and that would be the end of it because all the company really want is the money. And the flip side with TfL, as an example, you can write chapter and verse about how terribly sorry you are and they'll still prosecute.

To be fair to the train companies, we have seen positive outcomes when ticketing and Routeing issues have been raised here.

Yeah, it's certainly not a one-way street, we have seen issues which were adverse to the customer get fixed quickly too. There was an example fairly recently with, IIRC, SailRail tickets to the Isle of Man.

 

[John R]

I recall one dispute case where the case handler reached out to the person asking for advice here, mentioned that they had seen the correspondence here, and resolved the problem pretty much immediately.

 

[yorkie]

I ask this mostly out of curiosity, I’ve been looking at this forum since seeing it mentioned on Reddit a while ago. One thing I’ve been thinking is how often do rail staff read the posts here, and has it has ever made things worse for someone looking for help.

You could ask how often do passengers read posts here? It's impossible to say what proportion of people in any group read the forum, and if they do, how often, or which threads they read.

How do you even define "rail staff" anyway? In this context, it would have no relevance if a driver reads a ticketing dispute thread, but it could have a lot of relevance if someone who works in the back office of a retailer reads a thread where there was suspected fraud. Many rail workers would consider the latter to not be considered "rail staff", whereas the former would be.

Yes they do but we have no idea if it had any detrimental affects on any case

There have been instances where people have contacted me to say that someone isn't being entirely honest; in some cases advice has been given for the passenger to settle the matter out of court, or not to dispute the issuing of a penalty or excess fare, etc.

However, I wouldn't say that it was "detrimental" to the customer, as if such matters had gone to court, it would have been worse for the customer (as well as wasting court time, costing the TOCs and taxpayers money etc).

That’s interesting! How quickly do they get closed?

How long is a piece of string?

And yes, the redacting personal information is v important. I suppose, too, people can very easily change details so nothing here could actually be genuinely relied on

People need to be honest with us; if they are not, then they may not be getting the most appropriate advice, which defeats the purposes of posting in the first place!

To be fair to the train companies, we have seen positive outcomes when ticketing and Routeing issues have been raised here. In fact, I’d say publicising something on here makes it far more likely to be read by someone who understands it and is able to do something about it than logging in with customer services.

Very true; raising a ticketing matter through customer services is, depending on the TOC, potentially unlikely to achieve anything as the messages generally don't get passed on. Whereas, again depending on the TOC, the opposite can be the case when posting on the forum, as a relevant person may see the forum within minutes! ##

Admittedly, it doesn't always work like that by any means, but it can do!

 

[AlterEgo]

I recall one dispute case where the case handler reached out to the person asking for advice here, mentioned that they had seen the correspondence here, and resolved the problem pretty much immediately.

There was also the habitual liar who posted loads of lies on the forum relating to his dispute at Wembley Stadium. Chiltern called him out on that and intimated they read the thread and it resulted in him paying fare more than he ever needed to.

 

[Trackman]

We've had some instances were TOCs have acted on our posts or maybe coincidence. Avanti seem keen as I remember.

Bus operators too, I posted about a bus with a destination display that out-of-towners might not understand and suggested what to change it to.. hey presto 3 days later the change was made to my recommendation, or could it be sheer coincidence?

 

[yorkie]

We've had some instances were TOCs have acted on our posts or maybe coincidence. Avanti seem keen as I remember.

Definitely not a coincidence!

Bus operators too, I posted about a bus with a destination display that out-of-towners might not understand and suggested what to change it to.. hey presto 3 days later the change was made to my recommendation, or could it be sheer coincidence?

We host what appears to be the most popular bus forum covering UK buses (the closest second appears to be the Tangy Tango bus forum hosted by Proboards (https://tangytango.proboards.com/)), and I know that at least some bus industry insiders read our bus section, so probably not coincidence there either!

 

[Trackman]

Definitely not a coincidence!

We host what appears to be the most popular bus forum covering UK buses (the closest second appears to be the Tangy Tango bus forum hosted by Proboards (https://tangytango.proboards.com/)), and I know that at least some bus industry insiders read our bus section, so probably not coincidence there either!

Didnt think it was, but some people might say it was.

 

[John R]

There was also the habitual liar who posted loads of lies on the forum relating to his dispute at Wembley Stadium. Chiltern called him out on that and intimated they read the thread and it resulted in him paying fare more than he ever needed to.

Ah yes, that was certainly a memorable thread, as was the email(s?) they sent him.

 

[TheJester]

Ah yes, that was certainly a memorable thread, as was the email(s?) they sent him.

Do you have a link to the thread?

 

[MrJeeves]

Do you have a link to the thread?

I think the one people are thinking of is this one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ng-ticket-enforcer.260977/page-6#post-6587499

I don't see a mention of the person's thread in the reply from Chiltern, but they did state:

You may wish to visit RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 8 - Legal | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk) And in particular 8.7.1.3 Out of Court Settlement if you believe that the amount is too high, Its actually well below the amounts quoted here. This has been fairly costed and is in no way punitive. Your case has cost a significant amount of time.

 

[Sonic1234]

For some/many railway prosecutors you could simply write "Soz, LOL, here's a cheque"

Not even that, it's increasingly common for TOCs to state straight away how much they want. Don't have to go through the apology letter stage.

 

[pedr]

I can imagine that there may be occasions where people post here and provide more information than they are planning or willing to share with the train company, in ways which could identify them through quotations from letters sent to them, or dates of correspondence. Since some train companies appear to be trying to piece together cases from circumstantial evidence, rather than basing things on incontrovertible evidence gathered on a train or station, these might end up affecting a train company’s approach or providing additional evidence that could prove the company’s suspicions about short faring etc.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Since some train companies appear to be trying to piece together cases from circumstantial evidence, rather than basing things on incontrovertible evidence gathered on a train or station

Evidence please. My view (which in fairness I haven’t tried to evidence either) is, per my earlier post

all the evidence points to the railway processing offenders on a mass production basis. So overwhelmingly, people who engage with the process get to settle out of court, while those cases that proceed to prosecution rely on the railway officer’s witness statement.

I don’t recall ever seeing anything attached to a prosecution that says something like ‘the internet suggests that someone caught at the same time and the same station has offended on many previous occasions: we assert that to be an admission by the defendant’. I am not a lawyer so I don’t know if something like that would be admissible in court (although I would guess not) but in practice the railway don’t attempt to go there.

 

[tspaul26]

There was also the habitual liar who posted loads of lies on the forum relating to his dispute at Wembley Stadium. Chiltern called him out on that and intimated they read the thread and it resulted in him paying fare more than he ever needed to.

And another recent one involving a supposed “unlawful arrest” at, if memory serves, Waterloo.

It’s not just TOC railway officers who read the forums…

 

[pedr]

Evidence please. My view (which in fairness I haven’t tried to evidence either) is, per my earlier post

I'm thinking about the speculative letters based on the suspicion of wrong-doing gathered only from sales and ticket-scan data. There are attempts to encourage some people to admit to ticketing irregularities and to settle, where the poster here asserts they've never been stopped in person and the correspondence is only relating to information gathered from industry data. Often they receive advice that the company has very little or no evidence upon which they could base a prosecution, or even a debt recovery action, which is generally true, but at least some of those threads include additional information which could assist the company's investigations.

The general rule in England and Wales is that reliable evidence is admissible. I can imagine a prosecutor saying that forum user John Doe posted an extract of a letter they said was dated on a day we only sent one such letter, with the same content as the letter we sent to the defendant, and admitted that our suspicion of short faring was correct. Whether it's worth it for a train company to go to that trouble is another matter, but if investigators are reading these forums, I expect they sometimes recognise the case that's being posted about. Usually that's not a problem - posts here usually encourage people to seek to settle, which is in both parties' interests, or point out deficiencies in the train company's case which often they'd be well-advised to heed. But sometimes, as with the Wembley Stadium case, the posts here could form part of the train company's understanding of a complex situation.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

but at least some of those threads include additional information which could assist the company's investigations

But have we seen any signs of the railway making use of this additional information? Not only are we not aware of it showing up in court, but I don’t remember any follow up letters from the railway asking for more details (a) at all (because the railway’s process for these cases is a quick in and out, rather than probing deeply to explore every possible issue) or (b) in a way that would suggest that a posting here has led the railway to seek more information.

 

[Wethebest838]

There was also the habitual liar who posted loads of lies on the forum relating to his dispute at Wembley Stadium. Chiltern called him out on that and intimated they read the thread and it resulted in him paying fare more than he ever needed to.

Ah yes, especially the famous voice note where he apparently caught the worker saying he can travel without a ticket when he was saying happy birthday to someone if I remember.

 

[duffield]

But have we seen any signs of the railway making use of this additional information? Not only are we not aware of it showing up in court, but I don’t remember any follow up letters from the railway asking for more details (a) at all (because the railway’s process for these cases is a quick in and out, rather than probing deeply to explore every possible issue) or (b) in a way that would suggest that a posting here has led the railway to seek more information.

I'd think it would be very rare that they would do that, but we can't rule out them doing so in particularly serious cases involving systematic evasion over a long period of time.

Suppose someone popped up here with a tale of how they had been evading £100+ fares, several times a week, for at least the past year, amounting to maybe a five figure sum, and they had never been stopped but had just received a "fishing" letter based on their ticket purchase history and wanted advice? Suppose they also mentioned some details about which train company and which stations were involved, but otherwise gave zero personal details, reference numbers, etc. away?

I would have thought it's highly likely that the relevant investigations team would do their best to work out which letter they had sent that matched this person, and that in a case like the one I've described, that would not be difficult. Then they would know for certain that this person had committed grand scale evasion. But the thing is, they might well not attempt to use any potentially incriminating evidence from here in court; they could be more likely to use it to stage a sting operation, and then no-one involved apart from the investigator would ever know of this board's involvement.

As I say, a rare and occasional event; but not at all implausible for a really major evader.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Suppose someone popped up here with a tale of how they had been evading £100+ fares, several times a week, for at least the past year, amounting to maybe a five figure sum, and they had never been stopped but had just received a "fishing" letter based on their ticket purchase history and wanted advice? Suppose they also mentioned some details about which train company and which stations were involved, but otherwise gave zero personal details, reference numbers, etc. away?

I would have thought it's highly likely that the relevant investigations team would do their best to work out which letter they had sent that matched this person, and that in a case like the one I've described, that would not be difficult. Then they would know for certain that this person had committed grand scale evasion. But the thing is, they might well not attempt to use any potentially incriminating evidence from here in court; they could be more likely to use it to stage a sting operation, and then no-one involved apart from the investigator would ever know of this board's involvement.

Hmm. Two levels of hypotheticals, for the traveller’s actions and the railway’s response. It perhaps raises the question about when a thought experiment moves into being wishful thinking.

So yes, I will concede that it’s not impossible to imagine circumstances where posting on this forum would be unwise. But I would caveat that by pointing out that
- as far as I know, this has never yet happened.
- if it did happen, then what we tend to advise in major issues is that the traveller should instruct a solicitor
- and this also assumes that someone involved in major league fraud would start their defence by asking the internet rather than a lawyer.

 

[FenMan]

Fair play to GWR, I've seen two positive changes as a result of posting on this forum.

1. The first change was to permit travel from North Downs Line stations such as Crowthorne and Blackwater to East Croydon via Redhill i.e. the obvious and quickest route. Previously NRE had insisted travellers gradually lose the will to live on a far slower multi-change route through the backwoods of Surrey and South London.

2. The second was a change to the validity of off peak tickets from Blackwater to Reading. Due to an anomaly and a hole (since fixed) in a post-COVID timetable, this had resulted in the first off peak arrival in Reading being just before 11am. GWR changed the off peak validity from Blackwater to match nearby stations such as North Camp so off peak tickets were valid on an earlier service.

 

[dubscottie]

I ask this mostly out of curiosity, I’ve been looking at this forum since seeing it mentioned on Reddit a while ago. One thing I’ve been thinking is how often do rail staff read the posts here, and has it has ever made things worse for someone looking for help.

All the time. X ,Facebook etc. RPU in Ireland so its always interesting to read about scams in the UK. We are prepared then.

Every day is a school day on the Railway. That is true.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Fair play to GWR, I've seen two positive changes as a result of posting on this forum.

1. The first change was to permit travel from North Downs Line stations such as Crowthorne and Blackwater to East Croydon via Redhill i.e. the obvious and quickest route. Previously NRE had insisted travellers gradually lose the will to live on a far slower multi-change route through the backwoods of Surrey and South London.

2. The second was a change to the validity of off peak tickets from Blackwater to Reading. Due to an anomaly and a hole (since fixed) in a post-COVID timetable, this had resulted in the first off peak arrival in Reading being just before 11am. GWR changed the off peak validity from Blackwater to match nearby stations such as North Camp so off peak tickets were valid on an earlier service.

Do you mean SWR? Those are all their lines, not GWR's. (This is useful knowledge though as I live in the area and am now travelling a bit more in the general directions you quote for work. Am on assignment in Wokingham as we speak.)