Female Drivers - What's it REALLY like?

[nolypops83]

Without going too far into what's gone before, on the signalling side it has been an issue that womens' toilets can have issues being maintained to the same standard as mens' ones. Faults not getting reported/attended to, not getting restocked or cleaned to the same extent, that kind of thing. Is that an issue on the driving side?

Odd. You'd think they'd just do both at the same time?

 

[43066]

Without going too far into what's gone before, on the signalling side it has been an issue that womens' toilets can have issues being maintained to the same standard as mens' ones. Faults not getting reported/attended to, not getting restocked or cleaned to the same extent, that kind of thing. Is that an issue on the driving side?

There has been a push where I am to ensure tampons are provided in ladies and unisex disabled loos (I tend to use them because they’re less disgusting than the regular gents ).

 

[nolypops83]

There has been a push where I am to ensure tampons are provided in ladies and unisex disabled loos (I tend to use them because they’re less disgusting than the regular gents ).

That's awesome. We've various sanitary products at work for the students and staff. Sadly, not everyone can afford to buy them, plus you never know when you might get caught out.

 

[godfreycomplex]

That's awesome. We've various sanitary products at work for the students and staff. Sadly, not everyone can afford to buy them, plus you never know when you might get caught out.

We had the same but sadly it’s not universal

Odd. You'd think they'd just do both at the same time?

You would indeed

 

[AlterEgo]

Exactly. And if a driver isn’t comfortable challenging someone on banter, then maybe the role isn’t for them. Especially as you’re expected to deal with challenging situations daily, be that driving or difficult customers.

Train drivers should not be required to have skills in "dealing with banter" particularly if the "banter" is sexist, racist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic or any other sort of othering comment. Not everyone feels empowered to push back against comments particularly when directed at an out-group to which they belong, and frankly in the workplace people shouldn't need to.

 

[Carl98k]

I asking what it's like to be a female train driver. That's the discussion I want to have, not whether or not it's ok for me to ask a question on a public forum or if I have an agenda for posting.

Seriously, if you don't have anything relevant to add to the discussion then feel free to move along. There have been lots of helpful posts from both female drivers and male drivers with female colleagues. This is the railways jobs and careers forum, right?

The irony of so many blokes trying to derail (pun not intended) this conversation is not lost on me. Men and women get treated differently, that's just something we have to deal with on the daily. I've been driving a car for 22 years and the comments I get about being a "women driver" still happen to this day. Women have to deal with "can I speak to your husband" when they go to a garage, or buy a car, do anything remotely technical or physical. I'm in no way suggesting that the railway is a cesspool of misogyny, but I think it's a natural question for someone to ask. It would be the same for any person from a minority group, and unless you are in that position it can be hard to understand. If you've never had to walk through a warehouse full of blokes where they loudly try and guess your bra size or rate you and your colleagues based on how good they think you'll be in bed then I'm happy for you. I'm not saying it doesn't happen to men either, it shouldn't happen to anyone. When it comes to customers I've had my fair share of arseholes from both sexes, but I've never had a women grope my arse or breasts, or ask if the carpet matched the curtains to try to humiliate me. Not all men are like this, but it's enough of a problem for it to be experienced by most women. I've so many more stories I could add, this is the tip of the iceberg, I just wanted to add some context for those wondering why I might be asking.

I think you need to accept the fact this happens to men and women, and if it causes offence then deal with it as you see fit. You mentioned about being cat called and touched and that it donates happen to men. Well, I was a petrol driver for Bp before this job. And while doing a delivery a taxi of 5 women got out and started saying things like “look how big your hose is” and “you can fill me up when you’ve finished”. I just laughed and responded with “I’m not sure I have enough product” we all laughed and they left, after the night me a coffee. I’ve also (like other guys) been touched when in a pub/club. I’m not staying it’s right, but it doesn’t just happen to women.

If you want banter you’ll find it, if you don’t keep yourself to yourself. Some people over step the mark (I’ve done it) not intentionally but it sometimes happens. If you speak to them I’m sure it would be fine. However, if they’re taking the pi** then obviously report it.

Back to the point. As a passenger driver you’ll have access to a toilet in the station or on the train. You’ll be expected to come and do your job, like everyone else. If you do that you’ll be absolutely fine.

Train drivers should not be required to have skills in "dealing with banter" particularly if the "banter" is sexist, racist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic or any other sort of othering comment. Not everyone feels empowered to push back against comments particularly when directed at an out-group to which they belong, and frankly in the workplace people shouldn't need to.

I’m sorry but how are you meant to deal with an emergency and take charge if you’re unable to say “I’m sorry I find that in appropriate”. I’m not talking about racism, and one even mentioned that. We were discussing banter. Obviously if someone is racist then report it.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m sorry but how are you meant to deal with an emergency and take charge if you’re unable to say “I’m sorry I find that in appropriate”.

There's quite a world of difference between "this is an unsafe method of work and I will not do it" and "my workplace is hostile and I find myself being degraded" - the suggestion that banter should be tolerated by minority groups as a way of proving their character is pretty sad.

I’m not talking about racism, and one even mentioned that. We were discussing banter. Obviously if someone is racist then report it.

So it's just the racist banter there you found triggering. What if they're being sexist while "bantering"?

The OP was looking to get perspectives about female drivers and what the job is like and they certainly found them. Amusingly, several posters assumed, without merit, that she was the issue for having concerns, with one even suggesting some sort of hidden agenda. I think it is worth considering how women reading this thread might feel about how welcoming the railway is for female drivers based on some of the comments. I can certainly see why some wouldn't be happy.

 

[12LDA28C]

Train drivers should not be required to have skills in "dealing with banter" particularly if the "banter" is sexist, racist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic or any other sort of othering comment. Not everyone feels empowered to push back against comments particularly when directed at an out-group to which they belong, and frankly in the workplace people shouldn't need to.

Why do you automatically assume 'banter' is any or all of those things? Clearly you believe people shouldn't be able to have a laugh or joke at work and it should be a sombre and serious place. How dull.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why do you automatically assume 'banter' is any or all of those things? Clearly you believe people shouldn't be able to have a laugh or joke at work and it should be a sombre and serious place. How dull.

Disappointing lack of comprehension of the word "particularly", the inclusion of which implies that some banter is none of those things, rendering your post moot.

 

[43066]

That's awesome. We've various sanitary products at work for the students and staff. Sadly, not everyone can afford to buy them, plus you never know when you might get caught out.

Yes, and those facilities are also used by staff who are a lot less well paid than drivers, of course.

I guess it shows they’re actually “walking the walk” and taking these matters seriously, which is good. My TOC is generally viewed as one of the better ones from that point of view.

Train drivers should not be required to have skills in "dealing with banter" particularly if the "banter" is sexist, racist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic or any other sort of othering comment. Not everyone feels empowered to push back against comments particularly when directed at an out-group to which they belong, and frankly in the workplace people shouldn't need to.

You do need to be able to rub along with your colleagues, though, if you want the job to be enjoyable.

Nobody has said that sexist, racist, transphobic comments etc. are acceptable, and they are certainly not tolerated on the railway. There does seem to be an assumption from some this this kind of thing is widespread on the railway - it simply isn’t, based on the two TOCs I’ve worked for.

However I found some aspects of life on the railway are very different from the sterile, corporate environment I worked in before, and people from that kind of background should be prepared for a culture shock.

 

[nolypops83]

There's quite a world of difference between "this is an unsafe method of work and I will not do it" and "my workplace is hostile and I find myself being degraded" - the suggestion that banter should be tolerated by minority groups as a way of proving their character is pretty sad.


So it's just the racist banter there you found triggering. What if they're being sexist while "bantering"?

The OP was looking to get perspectives about female drivers and what the job is like and they certainly found them. Amusingly, several posters assumed, without merit, that she was the issue for having concerns, with one even suggesting some sort of hidden agenda. I think it is worth considering how women reading this thread might feel about how welcoming the railway is for female drivers based on some of the comments. I can certainly see why some wouldn't be happy.

I've just realised I'm a subscriber to your channel. Love your videos.

 

[Carl98k]

There's quite a world of difference between "this is an unsafe method of work and I will not do it" and "my workplace is hostile and I find myself being degraded" - the suggestion that banter should be tolerated by minority groups as a way of proving their character is pretty sad.


So it's just the racist banter there you found triggering. What if they're being sexist while "bantering"?

The OP was looking to get perspectives about female drivers and what the job is like and they certainly found them. Amusingly, several posters assumed, without merit, that she was the issue for having concerns, with one even suggesting some sort of hidden agenda. I think it is worth considering how women reading this thread might feel about how welcoming the railway is for female drivers based on some of the comments. I can certainly see why some wouldn't be happy.

Firstly I was referring to dealing with difficult or hostile members of the public. Not talking to a signaller or DM.

Secondly, I just picked racism out of the many things you said. Would you rather me address each one individually? Making someone feel uncomfortable is wrong, no matter if it’s sex race or anything else.

And I’m not triggered by anything, mainly because nothing anyone says to me bothers me (many years in the Marines) so I don’t get offended. Unlike yourself that’s quick to jump on me because I used one of your examples.

 

[12LDA28C]

Disappointing lack of comprehension of the word "particularly", the inclusion of which implies that some banter is none of those things, rendering your post moot.

Train drivers should not be required to have skills in "dealing with banter" - your words. Clearly you don't believe in inoffensive workplace banter which is indeed disappointing.

You do need to be able to rub along with your colleagues, though, if you want the job to be enjoyable.

Nobody has said that sexist, racist, transphobic comments etc. are acceptable, and they are certainly not tolerated on the railway. There does seem to be an assumption from some this this kind of thing is widespread on the railway - it simply isn’t, based on the two TOCs I’ve worked for.

However I found some aspects of life on the railway are very different from the sterile, corporate environment I worked in before, and people from that kind of background should be prepared for a culture shock.

Agreed. If you can't take a bit of a (non-offensive) joking at work, how are you going to be able to deal with someone jumping in front of your train when you're travelling at 100mph? Some drivers have a 'black' sense of humour which helps them deal with some of the things they witness at work and a thick skin is an advantage.

 

[AlterEgo]

You do need to be able to rub along with your colleagues, though, if you want the job to be enjoyable.

That is true, and applies to everyone.

Nobody has said that sexist, racist, transphobic comments etc. are acceptable, and they are not tolerated on the railway

Good! They should not be - and it is much more important to say that, than to attempt to excuse the behaviour (I know you did not yourself!). "We don't tolerate that here, and if/when it does happen, it's wrong" is a much better way to make the workplace better in my view.

(there does seem to be an assumption from some this this kind of thing is widespread on the railway - it simply isn’t, based on the two TOCs I’ve worked for).

I agree that it is probably not widespread, and the main reason people seem to think it is is down to basically a minority of male employees trying to gaslight those women who have found a problem, or tried to excuse it, or tried to suggest that it is part of the job. This is really what bothers me about the thread - there are excellent, unionised, well paid and skilled jobs out there and getting the best people to apply is important. Some people, rightly or wrongly, feel the culture of the job rather than the simple nature of it would exclude them, and that is unfortunate.

Firstly I was referring to dealing with difficult or hostile members of the public. Not talking to a signaller or DM.

So? Should the interview include a filthy sexist joke, or throw in a transphobic or racist slur, or ask invasive questions about gay people's sex lives? You know, to make sure the applicant has the required thick skin "in an emergency"? If a member of the public is being vile to a member of staff then the member of staff should be supported - not expected to just grin and bear it.

And I’m not triggered by anything, mainly because nothing anyone says to me bothers me (many years in the Marines) so I don’t get offended.

I'm very glad your experience in the Royal Marines made you thick skinned and impervious, and not at all defensive when challenged on the internet. Perhaps it is worth remembering that not everyone has had the benefit of front line military service and might have different perspectives on what is acceptable in the workplace.

Train drivers should not be required to have skills in "dealing with banter" - your words. Clearly you don't believe in workplace banter which is indeed disappointing.

Well no, I don't think "good at dealing with banter" is a prerequisite skill for someone to drive trains any more than "makes a good pot of tea in the mess room" or "always brings in food for others" is. It helps if they're a good, nice, flexible, reliable employee who gets on with everyone, but "good at dealing with banter" - well, no? Some people like it and some people don't.

I've just realised I'm a subscriber to your channel. Love your videos.

Thank you!

 

[nolypops83]

Yes, and those facilities are also used by staff who are a lot less well paid than drivers, of course.

I guess it shows they’re actually “walking the walk” and taking these matters seriously, which is good. My TOC is generally viewed as one of the better ones from that point of view.



You do need to be able to rub along with your colleagues, though, if you want the job to be enjoyable.

Nobody has said that sexist, racist, transphobic comments etc. are acceptable, and they are not tolerated on the railway. There does seem to be an assumption from some this this kind of thing is widespread on the railway - it simply isn’t, based on the two TOCs I’ve worked for.

However I found some aspects of life on the railway are very different from the sterile, corporate environment I worked in before, and people from that kind of background should be prepared for a culture shock.

I'll bet it was a culture shock!

Just a quick google search and came across a few articles, but this one from the RMT was a survey completed recently. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/survey-of-women-transport-workers-shows-unacceptable-level-of/

This one with links to government data on harassment for both men and women https://media.raildeliverygroup.com/news/rail-industry-campaign-to-crack-down-on-sexual-harassment

I think it happens more than people realise.

 

[Carl98k]

That is true, and applies to everyone.


Good! They should not be - and it is much more important to say that, than to attempt to excuse the behaviour (I know you did not yourself!). "We don't tolerate that here, and if/when it does happen, it's wrong" is a much better way to make the workplace better in my view.


I agree that it is probably not widespread, and the main reason people seem to think it is is down to basically a minority of male employees trying to gaslight those women who have found a problem, or tried to excuse it, or tried to suggest that it is part of the job. This is really what bothers me about the thread - there are excellent, unionised, well paid and skilled jobs out there and getting the best people to apply is important. Some people, rightly or wrongly, feel the culture of the job rather than the simple nature of it would exclude them, and that is unfortunate.


So? Should the interview include a filthy sexist joke, or throw in a transphobic or racist slur, or ask invasive questions about gay people's sex lives? You know, to make sure the applicant has the required thick skin "in an emergency"? If a member of the public is being vile to a member of staff then the member of staff should be supported - not expected to just grin and bear it.


I'm very glad your experience in the Royal Marines made you thick skinned and impervious, and not at all defensive when challenged on the internet. Perhaps it is worth remembering that not everyone has had the benefit of front line military service and might have different perspectives on what is acceptable in the workplace.


Well no, I don't think "good at dealing with banter" is a prerequisite skill for someone to drive trains any more than "makes a good pot of tea in the mess room" or "always brings in food for others" is. It helps if they're a good, nice, flexible, reliable employee who gets on with everyone, but "good at dealing with banter" - well, no? Some people like it and some people don't.


Thank you!

The interview and tests ensure you can remain calm and collected. Are you actually a driver at all? And again here you go with brining every kind of possible negative behaviour towards a minority group. I’m far from defensive, it’s just hilarious the language you use. It’s almost as if you’re looking for an argument. And again I’ll write it in capitals. NO ONE SHOULD BE MADE TO FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE IN THE WORK PLACE. Hopefully that’s nailed the point home, and you won’t need to bring that back up.

 

[43066]

Agreed. If you can't take a bit of a (non-offensive) joking at work, how are you going to be able to deal with someone jumping in front of your train when you're travelling at 100mph? A thick skin is an advantage.

Indeed and when that happens, and it most probably will at some point, people will make jokes about it. It’s part of the way it’s dealt with. I imagine that probably sounds odd to people outside the industry, but it’s a fact of life on the inside.

Good! They should not be - and it is much more important to say that, than to attempt to excuse the behaviour (I know you did not yourself!). "We don't tolerate that here, and if/when it does happen, it's wrong" is a much better way to make the workplace better in my view.

But nobody has said they are? I don’t think anyone on this thread has attempted to excuse that kind of behaviour? It would be a great shame if this thread put any prospective female employees off, and it is degenerating into men, some of who have never stepped into a traincrew messroom, arguing about a non-issue.

I agree that it is probably not widespread, and the main reason people seem to think it is is down to basically a minority of male employees trying to gaslight those women who have found a problem, or tried to excuse it, or tried to suggest that it is part of the job.

Which people are we talking about? The people saying it’s an issue don’t appear to be current railway staff. The female train drivers who’ve commented on this thread have said they’ve not had an issue.

I'll bet it was a culture shock!

Based on experience, I’d say there’s more sexism in other industries I’ve worked in, as you’ve alluded to yourself from your experiences elsewhere.

 

[nolypops83]

Well, this is clearly going to get closed again.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, this is clearly going to get closed again.

I would definitely spend some time on Twitter/X and follow some female drivers; I am sure they would be more than happy to share their experiences via DM without the public questioning your motives or experiences.

The interview and tests ensure you can remain calm and collected. Are you actually a driver at all? And again here you go with brining every kind of possible negative behaviour towards a minority group. I’m far from defensive, it’s just hilarious the language you use. It’s almost as if you’re looking for an argument. And again I’ll write it in capitals. NO ONE SHOULD BE MADE TO FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE IN THE WORK PLACE. Hopefully that’s nailed the point home, and you won’t need to bring that back up.

You can't really suggest that "nobody should be made to feel uncomfortable in the workplace" while saying that the only staff worth doing the job are ones who can cope with...being made to feel uncomfortable. Those two things aren't compatible with broadening the appeal of the job. If that is a requirement of the job, the selection process does not deal with it, only that you remain clear headed under pressure. However it's been helpful to read your post with block capitals about how you are not defensive, and rest assured I will have no need to bring that back up again with that in the thread.

 

[Jimini]

Well, this is clearly going to get closed again.

Probably. Shame really, given some of the insightful and informative posts for the most part.

 

[Carl98k]

I would definitely spend some time on Twitter/X and follow some female drivers; I am sure they would be more than happy to share their experiences via DM without the public questioning your motives or experiences.


You can't really suggest that "nobody should be made to feel uncomfortable in the workplace" while saying that the only staff worth doing the job are ones who can cope with...being made to feel uncomfortable. Those two things aren't compatible with broadening the appeal of the job. If that is a requirement of the job, the selection process does not deal with it, only that you remain clear headed under pressure. However it's been helpful to read your post with block capitals about how you are not defensive, and rest assured I will have no need to bring that back up again with that in the thread.

I’ll assume from your response that you’re not a driver. I was saying surely someone who’s able to deal with difficult situations. I mean if a customer calls them a name are they going to have a week off or something? You should be able to say you’ve over stepped the mark. That has nothing to do with my view that no one should be treated like that at work

 

[43066]

Probably. Shame really, given some of the insightful and informative posts for the most part.

Agreed .

 

[transportphoto]

We’ve discussed the inevitable. Thanks all.