No Trains on Boxing Day

[AlterEgo]

This is another circular RailForums argument. Stuff gets done over Xmas because there are less people travelling, the industry compensation mechanism (schedule 4) makes it cheaper and its also where operators want NR to put it. Some lines where trains do run operators accept the fact they will have to be disrupted at other times.

Schedule 4 is indeed the secret ingredient. People don’t travel at Christmas because there is no option to do so; it’s the opposite of induced demand. If you ran Boxing Day trains for 20 years, 2027-2047, it would change the nature of our festive season for sure - something which arguably needs to happen for our own good.

 

[43066]

This is where relying on voluntary working falls down. Volunteering your services is good, but it also means you can withdraw your voluntary service at any time. Timetables can’t be reliably produced which rely on voluntary service, as the railway has found to its cost.

The only way it can work is that once an employee has volunteered for duty, that commitment is binding (illness excepted, although that can be feigned). Of course the unions won’t agree to that.

Literally a few posts above yours someone points out that voluntary arrangements generated 90 volunteers for 20 shifts, yet you still find a way to criticise unions…

 

[RHolmes]

Boxing Day sales shoppers aren't anywhere near as big a thing as they used to be as many will do their sales shopping online.

They’re also not as big of a thing anymore as many retailers have moved their sales to the 27th December or actually start their sales the week before Christmas such clothing retailer as H&M.

 

[AverageJoe]

I was in a major city today and it was empty. Traffic also pretty much non existent at rush hour.

I imagine a lot of the commuters on Boxing Day are people returning home from family get togethers so possibly they could have done those trips today on the train if they weren’t running yesterday.

 

[whoosh]

Can anyone remember Heathrow Express when it started up ran on Christmas Day and Boxing Day?

At some point I think it switched to Replacement Bus for those days, but later a switch to nothing at all. But apparently the airport is busy on these days?

If an airport service has decided its not worth the trouble, then maybe it isn't really worth the trouble?

 

[dangie]

Literally a few posts above yours someone points out that voluntary arrangements generated 90 volunteers for 20 shifts, yet you still find a way to criticise unions…

Since where did I criticise the Unions? I said the Unions wouldn’t agree to voluntary service being binding. That is not a criticism, that is the Union being on the employee’s side.

 

[skyhigh]

Since where did I criticise the Unions? I said the Unions wouldn’t agree to voluntary service being binding. That is not a criticism, that is the Union being on the employee’s side.

But they do agree to penalties being imposed if the employee backs out of voluntary commitments.... Where I am, if a driver backs out of Rest Day Work when they are required, they get a penalty of +3 on the equalisation score. In turn, this means they have less chance of getting RDW when others have lower scores.

 

[Class 317]

But they do agree to penalties being imposed if the employee backs out of voluntary commitments.... Where I am, if a driver backs out of Rest Day Work when they are required, they get a penalty of +3 on the equalisation score. In turn, this means they have less chance of getting RDW when others have lower scores.

For me it's simple. If I have signed up to overtime I'm committed morally and ethically to working bar illness etc.

If I needed to not work it for any other reason I'd expect to have to find cover for the turn I have committed to.

 

[dangie]

But they do agree to penalties being imposed if the employee backs out of voluntary commitments.... Where I am, if a driver backs out of Rest Day Work when they are required, they get a penalty of +3 on the equalisation score. In turn, this means they have less chance of getting RDW when others have lower scores.

Many apologies. Not working in the railway industry I didn’t know this. I am surprised this is agreed by the unions but see it as a good thing. Thank you for enlightening me.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Why should we come to work on Boxing Day and get abused, spoken to like trash and then have to deal with the inevitable disruption etc? Then there will be football matches which we have to deal with fallout from that with limited support.

Then there’s the shoppers off to the sales and not to mention the coffin size bags that people have been travelling with this Christmas - any attempt to manage bags is met with abuse.

Absolute hell on earth.

Where I’m from there’s no meaningful NHS, GP or chemist service so don’t see why the trains should be singled out for lack of service.

I’ll never work one.

I don’t really see why everyone’s piling on this post to be honest.

It’s clear that azOOOOOma has lived experience of behaviour where they live and work that informs their judgement as to whether to hypothetically work a hypothetical voluntary bit of overtime, and they’re trying to share this lived experience in order for you to understand the realities of the job that they do, and answer the question posed in the thread title

It may not necessarily be what you want to hear but it’s a privilege to hear testimony at first hand, and equally a privilege to take it on board

 

[43066]

But they do agree to penalties being imposed if the employee backs out of voluntary commitments.... Where I am, if a driver backs out of Rest Day Work when they are required, they get a penalty of +3 on the equalisation score. In turn, this means they have less chance of getting RDW when others have lower scores.

Exactly!

 

[Geswedey]

For me it's simple. If I have signed up to overtime I'm committed morally and ethically to working bar illness etc.

If I needed to not work it for any other reason I'd expect to have to find cover for the turn I have committed to.

Agreed I had to work rostered Sundays if cover could not be found and that is the way it should be.

 

[LAX54]

I'm guessing a lot's to do with the type of traffic flows. While there can often feel like there's a lot pf people moving around on Boxing Day, a lot of it's not the type of thing that rail's suitable for in most places, it's people going from house to house vising families, often loaded down with presents, and unless you both happen to live near a station rail doesn't do that very well. Even those going to work are rarely in the 'commuter' class, going to one big place, and Boxing Day sales shoppers aren't anywhere near as big a thing as they used to be as many will do their sales shopping online.

Is that not part of the issue, people travel at Christmas tend to have rather a lot of presents with them (based on cars who park in our street!), so will always choose car over public transport, there are the sales on the 26th, but there is pressure to close stores on the 26th
Is another issue the UK has such an intense service now, most of it (inc Freight) 24/7, Christmas/New Year is the only logical time to carry out Major work ?

 

[Class 317]

Agreed I had to work rostered Sundays if cover could not be found and that is the way it should be.

Not rostered but if you have committed to work one.

 

[ejstubbs]

That's incorrect. England and Wales have 8, Scotland 9 and Northern Ireland 10 - see here: https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays

Although the extra "bank holiday" in Scotland is St Andrews day, which was introduced in 2006. In my experience virtually no-one seems to observe it, no doubt in part because banks aren't actually obliged to close on St Andrews day, and employers aren't obliged to give staff the day off: https://www.gov.scot/publications/bank-holidays/. So it's not really much of a bank holiday, more just a bit of ScoGov flag-waving.

Although 2nd January is a bank holiday in Scotland, Easter Monday isn't. So if you ignore the St Andrews day holiday - which seems to be generally the case - then Scotland has the same number of bank holidays as England does. Personally I'd rather have had the extra day off in the spring rather than in the middle of winter, in Scotland. But I'm retired now so every day is a holiday for me anyway

The local or public holidays in Scotland are another matter. They seem to be observed in a rather haphazard fashion; for example in Edinburgh the council offices are closed on a local public holiday, bin collections don't happen, and Lothian Buses run a reduced service. Some shops - mainly locally owned and run ones - stay closed, others don't. None of my employers ever gave me the day off, though ☹️ They also don't seem to be particularly widely publicised: the first inkling I usually get is when Lothian buses announces that they will be running a reduced service, about a week beforehand.

 

[Topological]

So you are admitting that a lot of people don't work for nearly a fortnight over Christmas and that these people expect others that they might need the services of like the emergency services, Hospital staff, shop workers and transportation workers to be available to work those days. I appreciate that those of use who choose or chose to work in those industries mostly knew what they were signing up for it it still nice to have a lit bit of time off at Christmas.

I suspect those whose offices close for an extended Christmas break have that accounted for in their holidays. It cannot be assumed that they would choose to have the long break if the option existed to move the days to other times (e.g. parents may choose for one to work during the extended break to then provide childcare during a different school holiday)

My industry has fixed leave dates based upon a long Christmas break, but we also have an output-based promotion culture which means many of us work many more hours than a typical 9-5 each week. We also have a strong union that does call strikes.

 

[fandroid]

Since 1974., over a century after England and Wales.

And 1974 is when England and Wales finally got New Years Day as a bank holiday. So no need for any Scots grumbles

 

[yorkie]

I don’t really see why everyone’s piling on this post to be honest.

It’s clear that azOOOOOma has lived experience of behaviour where they live and work that informs their judgement as to whether to hypothetically work a hypothetical voluntary bit of overtime, and they’re trying to share this lived experience in order for you to understand the realities of the job that they do, and answer the question posed in the thread title

It may not necessarily be what you want to hear but it’s a privilege to hear testimony at first hand, and equally a privilege to take it on board

Rather than just relying on hypothetical "first hand" testimony, I feel that it would be good to hear actual first hand testimony from people at the relevant TOCs who have direct experience of working this day.

 

[dk1]

If the box / panel is required to be open, then you are rostered to work it, you can however ask if a collegue wants to work it instead, applications for 'leave' are barred for the Christmas / New Year period.

Do you still have a full compliment of bobbies on for Christmas and Boxing Day?

 

[RailExplorer]

This is where relying on voluntary working falls down. Volunteering your services is good, but it also means you can withdraw your voluntary service at any time. Timetables can’t be reliably produced which rely on voluntary service, as the railway has found to its cost.

The only way it can work is that once an employee has volunteered for duty, that commitment is binding (illness excepted, although that can be feigned). Of course the unions won’t agree to that.

Christmas / Boxing Day is paid at a good rate at my TOC.
We don't have people dropping out once they have put in for rest day work on a normal day (which is currently paid at normal rate with no enhancements).... So they certainly won't drop out on triple pay for Xmas/Boxing. But to protect the service, make it a binding agreement by the company and by the employer.

You do need a good working relationship between employer and staff though - something which most TOCs appear to lack.

 

[Haywain]

“the full range of shifts” for rail staff often doesn’t include Sundays,

For some rail staff - there are huge number of rail staff who already have Sundays within the working week.

So that’s a nine day closure, do it some other time? There is no mandatory reason for it to happen at Christmas. That’s what happens in other serious countries. Obviously I’m not thick enough to think you spread a single nine day bridge replacement across nine individual days but bless you for thinking that.

Although in this case the benefit of combining the closure with that for the Radlett bridge insertion, power upgrades and (I think) trackworks in the Thameslink core is such that the closure at the time it causes least disruption is very sensible.

 

[12LDA28C]

Surely you just do what nearly everyone else does in Europe and spread it across the year. Works fine on much better, more socially conscious and more customer focused railways than ours.

The point is that on the vast majority of routes, no trains run for two days at Christmas so scheduled engineering work can take place without affecting any passengers which is clearly not the case if that work is 'spread across the year'.

It's disgusting in 2024 that this continues. These works should be done in a quiet month like February

So more people want to travel by train at Christmas than any given date in February? What evidence do you have for this?

This is where relying on voluntary working falls down. Volunteering your services is good, but it also means you can withdraw your voluntary service at any time. Timetables can’t be reliably produced which rely on voluntary service, as the railway has found to its cost.

The only way it can work is that once an employee has volunteered for duty, that commitment is binding (illness excepted, although that can be feigned). Of course the unions won’t agree to that.

This is not correct. As I already mentioned upthread, a list of standby drivers is held so that if anyone rostered to work on Boxing Day then pulls out, a standby driver is brought in to cover. This system works just fine.

Rather than just relying on hypothetical "first hand" testimony, I feel that it would be good to hear actual first hand testimony from people at the relevant TOCs who have direct experience of working this day.

Never had a problem myself, or witnessed the kind of behaviour described.

 

[Geswedey]

No, it hasn’t. What is it that makes the customers actually different, as in - more abusive? Nothing at all - and the poster wouldn’t even know, as they don’t work Boxing Day by their own admission.


So that’s a nine day closure, do it some other time? There is no mandatory reason for it to happen at Christmas. That’s what happens in other serious countries. Obviously I’m not thick enough to think you spread a single nine day bridge replacement across nine individual days but bless you for thinking that.

No I don't but it would still need a longish block with roads in the local area also being closed and some residents temporarily rehoused, doing the work at a different time would probably be even more of an inconvenience.

 

[1D54]

Do you still have a full compliment of bobbies on for Christmas and Boxing Day?

I doubt anyone could tell the difference these days.

 

[skyhigh]

I doubt anyone could tell the difference these days.

'Bobbies' meaning signallers...

 

[AlterEgo]

The point is that on the vast majority of routes, no trains run for two days at Christmas so scheduled engineering work can take place without affecting any passengers which is clearly not the case if that work is 'spread across the year'.

Why is that a good idea in this country but not in seemingly any other European country, or in fact many others like America or Australia? Do you think the railway has any sort of social obligation as a certain heavily subsidised public utility?

“Without affecting any passengers” - er, no, it affects millions of people every year, because there is zero service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This is another circular RailForums argument. Stuff gets done over Xmas because there are less people travelling, the industry compensation mechanism (schedule 4) makes it cheaper and its also where operators want NR to put it. Some lines where trains do run operators accept the fact they will have to be disrupted at other times.

But it’s not cheaper though, is it? Tonight, I’m returning to Manchester using British Airways because Avanti West Coast wanted such eye-watering fares for a direct train from London. Says it all.

 

[dk1]

I doubt anyone could tell the difference these days.

Yes I was talking about signallers

 

[spp]

Why should we come to work on Boxing Day and get abused, spoken to like trash and then have to deal with the inevitable disruption etc? Then there will be football matches which we have to deal with fallout from that with limited support.

Then there’s the shoppers off to the sales and not to mention the coffin size bags that people have been travelling with this Christmas - any attempt to manage bags is met with abuse.

Absolute hell on earth.

Where I’m from there’s no meaningful NHS, GP or chemist service so don’t see why the trains should be singled out for lack of service.

I’ll never work one.

I agree re trains not being singled out for Boxing Day and have no issue with there being no trains, it’s just how it is/always has been:

But wow you’re disdain for the people who pay your wages has really shone through. If you hate rail passengers that much maybe it’s time to find another job?

 

[azOOOOOma]

But wow you’re disdain for the people who pay your wages has really shone through. If you hate rail passengers that much maybe it’s time to find another job?

Not wanting to face abuse is ‘disdain’?

Got it!

Laura x