Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

[Topological]

Yes, I remember those - HSTs replaced by 2 car 170s. They (and others from interesting stations served by new MML services) also provided the only service for anyone wanting to travel from South of Leicester to London. For those stations, the service on paper had an increased frequency, but the 2-car trains were usually very full and standing by Leicester so they then ran non-stop to St Pancras. My own personal record at Wellingborough is watching three successive overloaded 2 car 170s, timetabled to call every half hour, run through slowly without stopping.
At least XC don't run non-stop when the trains are full - they give you a sporting chance to squeeze on. Nor did they replace the HST sets with 2 cars.

HSTs were not replaced by 2 car 170s. However, some of the smaller stops where the half-hourly HST did stop previously then became served by the additional 170s.

The timetable with the 170s had a half-hourly pattern. A fast train (still HST) was pathed to go through Leicester whilst the Turbostar sat on the neighbouring platform. This meant passengers from further north transferred over to the HST and the Turbostar then proceeded south. Sometimes there were advances on the Turbostar and so I did take the Turbostar from Leicester to London a few times. It was slower because the Turbostar then proceeded to stop at the southern MML stations. I thought the timetable worked well and was something other lines could replicate.

At least if they tried the same timetable again Kettering and south have the Connect trains.

I can see why the issues south would have been annoying, but it is not fair to say that anyone has ever replaced a HST with a 2-car 170 in the timetable as that implies the full journey.

(As a disclaimer here there may have been some extra services that were previously HST and became Turbostar, but I am talking about the standard pattern. Also many of the Turbostars were 3-car, or given a third car, I cannot remember the order of events)

Virgin XC had five 2-car 158s. They operated two services a day on the Liverpool / Birmingham to Portsmouth axis and some trains between Liverpool / Manchester and Scotland. Yes, they operated daily but essentially just on a handful of low demand services.

The normal for ten years pre-Voyager was otherwise 7-car sets of Mark 2s or 7-car HSTs.

I did a 158 from Portsmouth back north after watching a game at Fratton Park and am sure there was one that headed south out of Manchester that Saturday (my memory being that that was how I had got to Portsmouth, but I was somewhat hungover and it was a long time ago). What I also cannot remember is whether I changed at New Street for the rest of the journey to Manchester. I remember the train from Portsmouth being very full, but cannot remember if it was 2-car or 4-car.

 

[Bikeman78]

158s did the Edinburgh to Manchester Airport diagram under BR and then Virgin.

Also a regular at Banbury on the NW-South Coast diagrams.

Two-car sets were very much the normal pre-Voyager!

I do sometimes wonder if XC under BR would have had an earlier renaissance if they had managed to slip through an order for 30 5-car 158 sets in 1989. The time saving on loco changes and run-arounds would have slashed journey times.

There were only five class 158s in the XC fleet, so they can't have done that much. I think they might have run to Portsmouth. There were a few odd workings there.

 

[JonathanH]

What I also cannot remember is whether I changed at New Street for the rest of the journey to Manchester. I remember the train from Portsmouth being very full, but cannot remember if it was 2-car or 4-car.

Yes, seemingly in the 1998 timetable, the 158 departures from Portsmouth Harbour were 1M13 1035 to Liverpool Lime Street, 1M32 1435 to Blackpool North, and 1M46 1735 to Manchester Oxford Road. However, for the context of this discussion, these services were in addition to the 'normal' CrossCountry service. By 1999, the one in the middle of the day wasn't a 158.

 

[Merle Haggard]

HSTs were not replaced by 2 car 170s. However, some of the smaller stops where the half-hourly HST did stop previously then became served by the additional 170s.

The timetable with the 170s had a half-hourly pattern. A fast train (still HST) was pathed to go through Leicester whilst the Turbostar sat on the neighbouring platform. This meant passengers from further north transferred over to the HST and the Turbostar then proceeded south. Sometimes there were advances on the Turbostar and so I did take the Turbostar from Leicester to London a few times. It was slower because the Turbostar then proceeded to stop at the southern MML stations. I thought the timetable worked well and was something other lines could replicate.

At least if they tried the same timetable again Kettering and south have the Connect trains.

I can see why the issues south would have been annoying, but it is not fair to say that anyone has ever replaced a HST with a 2-car 170 in the timetable as that implies the full journey.

(As a disclaimer here there may have been some extra services that were previously HST and became Turbostar, but I am talking about the standard pattern. Also many of the Turbostars were 3-car, or given a third car, I cannot remember the order of events)


I did a 158 from Portsmouth back north after watching a game at Fratton Park and am sure there was one that headed south out of Manchester that Saturday (my memory being that that was how I had got to Portsmouth, but I was somewhat hungover and it was a long time ago). What I also cannot remember is whether I changed at New Street for the rest of the journey to Manchester. I remember the train from Portsmouth being very full, but cannot remember if it was 2-car or 4-car.

Before the MML changes, Wellingborough was served by HSTs, and after, the standard pattern was only by 2 car 170s - there were a couple of HST services in the peak.
Obviously the 170 was for the whole journey to London.
Same applied to Bedford and Luton but they had the Thameslink alternative. Kettering and Market Harborough, I recall, in the same situation as Wellingborough.
Hardly fair to call these 'smaller stops' in terms of population.

 

[Topological]

Before the MML changes, Wellingborough was served by HSTs, and after, the standard pattern was only by 2 car 170s - there were a couple of HST services in the peak.
Obviously the 170 was for the whole journey to London.
Same applied to Bedford and Luton but they had the Thameslink alternative. Kettering and Market Harborough, I recall, in the same situation as Wellingborough.
Hardly fair to call these 'smaller stops' in terms of population.

It is probably fair to say Market Harborough, Kettering and Wellingborough are "smaller stops" than Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield and Derby (though maybe Derby only qualifies as big for connections rather than local population). I cannot recall whether the HSTs still served Loughborough, or whether one did and one did not. There were other odd stops in the HSTs. Chesterfield is probably the only oddity, but then most of the 170s were Derby to London and therefore did not go through Chesterfield.

(I am leaving the odd train that carried on from Nottingham to Neville Hill out as that had to serve Alfreton and Langley Mill because it replaced a service in that hour which did serve those stations)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BR XC, and into the early Virgin years, had all manner of "boat train" workings to Folkestone/Dover/Ramsgate, Newhaven, Brighton, Portsmouth and Harwich (as the the North Country Continental became).
All these were loco-hauled until the Voyagers came in as HSTs never got to those places.
Year by year these were cut back until just the Brighton was left, and now that's gone too.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Virgin used their 158s on Manchester to Brighton in it’s entirety?? Are you sure? I thought it was just for stretches such as Swindon Cheltenham and Manchester Crewe hops?

I agree that the Voyagers are very good trains.

From memory XC had five class 158s 158747-158751 and of these one was out of traffic for awhile with crash damage. The others worked a large number of jobs but obviously not all at the same time because there weren't enough. The Golden Valley DCheltenham-Swindon service used either one or two units, butthere were also Manchester-Edinburgh and Birmingham-Portsmouth services.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Don't suppose anyone knows how many diagrams Cross Country run each day? (i.e. Bristol to Manchester and back three times in a day would count as one diagram) Could then divide the number of coaches by the number of diagrams to see what the average set length will be both before and after the transfer of the Avanti 221s to XC

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for discussion of the former Avanti 221s that are transferring to Cross Country.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread elsewhere.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Some of Avanti's 221s have been stood down for absolutely months now, so why have we still only got a measly three running for XC?

 

[Trainman40083]

Some of Avanti's 221s have been stood down for absolutely months now, so why have we still only got a measly three running for XC?

Maybe many expected nothing less.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe many expected nothing less.

Since we're at a stage now where XC have had the front to cancel many services from stations due to overcrowding, such as Basingstoke, Winchester, Wakefield W'g. and Chesterfield, none of which are small, you'd think they'd be keener to get their additional capacity up and running.

 

[JamesT]

Since we're at a stage now where XC have had the front to cancel many services from stations due to overcrowding, such as Basingstoke, Winchester, Wakefield W'g. and Chesterfield, none of which are small, you'd think they'd be keener to get their additional capacity up and running.

Do XC have anybody to staff them?

 

[Trainman40083]

Do XC have anybody to staff them?

Indeed, will the DfT even allow them to incur the cost?

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed, will the DfT even allow them to incur the cost?

Have the contracts with the train maintenance providers been signed? Is the additional diesel budgetted for? It doesn't seem to be a case of saying to the drivers 'just take an extra Voyager with you today'.

 

[Trainman40083]

Have the contracts with the train maintenance providers been signed? Is the additional diesel budgetted for? It doesn't seem to be a case of saying to the drivers 'just take an extra Voyager with you today'.

Add is servicing, stabling , platform space etc, and it might take a timetable change ...Are the "stored" units having any conversion work yet?

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s been explained a few times, based on various announcements and magazine articles that the modification programme doesn’t start until Jan 2025, and the timetable uplifts are not due until May 2025 according to the Feb 24 track access application. This shouldn’t really come as a surprise to anyone who has been reading this thread.

 

[Halish Railway]

I have been following this thread somewhat closely but I’m still not familiar with what is preventing the other 9 ex-Avanti Voyagers from joining the CrossCountry fleet. Please can someone explain why the other ex-Avanti Voyagers haven’t joined XC yet and what the timeframe is for them entering service with XC?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I have been following this thread somewhat closely but I’m still not familiar with what is preventing the other 9 ex-Avanti Voyagers from joining the CrossCountry fleet. Please can someone explain why the other ex-Avanti Voyagers haven’t joined XC yet and what the timeframe is for them entering service with XC?

By May 2025 apparently, which is disgraceful.

 

[Retorus]

By May 2025 apparently, which is disgraceful.

How is that being justified?!

 

[NEDdrv]

I have been following this thread somewhat closely but I’m still not familiar with what is preventing the other 9 ex-Avanti Voyagers from joining the CrossCountry fleet. Please can someone explain why the other ex-Avanti Voyagers haven’t joined XC yet and what the timeframe is for them entering service with XC?

It will be down to money, dft would be paying extra costs (leasing, fuel etc)

 

[Bald Rick]

By May 2025 apparently, which is disgraceful.

How is that being justified?!

They have to be reconfigured for Cross Coutnry use.

 

[swt_passenger]

By May 2025 apparently, which is disgraceful.

May 2025 is the date in the track access application for the timetable restoration to commence, if you go back to the first mention of the refurbishment programme, back in Feb 2024, it was to start in Sep 2024, (but hasn’t yet), and complete in Sep 2026, with the additional units being refurbished last. This was from a video presentation which someone posted in the original XC Voyager Refurb thread, this thread duplicates it to an extent, but doesn’t have all the announcements.

XC Voyager Refurbishment

They’d be expected to be in service for 35-40 years. Don’t hold your breath… Given the position XC occupies in the rolling stock pecking order, quite likely "in service for 35-40 years *starting from now*". :E

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[RailWonderer]

Do XC have anybody to staff them?

They had the staff until very recently when calls were removed so I don't see why not.

Indeed, will the DfT even allow them to incur the cost?

Leasing more units will provide much needed capacity and they're midlife units which won't be too costly for the significant benefits of leasing a few more, and there are (12 I think, 3 in service?) not many extra units that could make a few more crucial doubled up diagrams.

Add in servicing, stabling , platform space etc, and it might take a timetable change ...Are the "stored" units having any conversion work yet?

This is a legitimate reason why it might be taking longer.

 

[Russel]

They have to be reconfigured for Cross Coutnry use.

They got the first couple of Avanti units into service fairly quickly though.

 

[Devonexile]

My guess is that no DfT money is available for leasing costs etc in the current financial year which ends in April.

 

[dk1]

My guess is that no DfT money is available for leasing costs etc in the current financial year which ends in April.

Tighter than a ducks backside.

 

[Trainman40083]

They had the staff until very recently when calls were removed so I don't see why not.

Leasing more units will provide much needed capacity and they're midlife units which won't be too costly for the significant benefits of leading a fre more, and there are (12 I think, 3 in service?) not many extra units that could make a few more crucial doubled up diagrams.

This is a legitimate reason why it might be taking longer.

One interim improvement might have been the replacement of 4 cars for stored 5 cars,giving an immediate capacity enhancement.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

My guess is that no DfT money is available for leasing costs etc in the current financial year which ends in April.

I suspect it's exactly that, not been budgeted for this year so can't be paid for... That's something well all have to get used to moving to a permanent public ownership solution, it's not as nimble as private enterprise by its nature of not spending its own money.

 

[Discuss223]

As far as I am aware, the the ex Avanti 221s don't need to be modified to operate for CrossCountry but CrossCountry will be removing the tilt rigs in the fullness of time to standardise the fleet.